Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by jayk, May 28, 2002.
hi does anyone own this player and if so is it good.
I'm waiting on any news of a multi-region hack before I make the leap.
I'm also not sure if it is out in the UK yet.
sevenoaks are showing them in there product list and i think you can buy it multiregion.web address is www.sevenoakssoundandvision.co.uk.
Thought you might like to have a glance at the 3800 owners manual here;
Lets hope the picture is improved on the 2800.
They are out...we got one yesterday..haven't taken it out box yet.
If you do get it out to test could you have a look at either Matrix r2 or Seven SE r2 on the scenes that a lot of us with 2800s have had problems with.
It is supposed to have a different decoder chip, but I'm concerned it might show the same defects.
have you managed to view the 3800 yet?
Seven & Matrix test for artifacts, please tell us you haven't had a chance to try yet.
Silence is worrying, if selling the Denon you would be reluctant to post it is the same as a lot of the Mk1 2800s.
Not meaning to be rude or anything.
It would be reassuring to hear it from such as yourself.
i saw a brief demonstration of this at the weekend, and brought r2 seven with me, in the opening scenes as they investigate the intial murder, there is lots of blockiness (digital artifacts I believe) wasnt sure if this was the fujitsu 4229 (not a great plasma) or the denon dvd, but it didnt look promising. Unfortunately I couldnt spend more than a few minutes as I was hopping into someone's demonstration time. Also compared to a pioneer 747 (unfortunately with toy story, agin due to sitting in on others demos), the sound seemed a lot clearer on the denon, but the pioneer picture (was a r1 disk with PS) was superb (allowing for the advans of toy story.
So it seems the denon still may have this problem, maybe others have now managed to have a demo, Gordon after CEDIA due you have any views.
I just felt that I had to "help you out" with this one. I got my 3800 three weeks ago, and so far I've been very happy with it.
I printed the "Artifacts on the 2800"-thread, but as far as I could see, both the Matrix and the Seven (R2) run without artifacts. At least I couldn't spot anything on my 32" wide screen. I may try to run them through my TW-100, if I just can find the time.
If there are any particular films you would like me to run, please feel free to ask.
PS. Thank you all for the information I've managed to pick up from this forum.
Laingy / PennyLane,
Thanks for the info...
Interestingly One Good, One Bad.
50% success rate so far for Denon, any other testers?
of course... we are assuming here that the R2 Seven is the same everywhere. the Nordic R2 may be completely different from the UK R2 SE by EIV.
think tausvedht (?) on the 2800 thread tried the Seven SE R2 and found no problems also.
similarly.. on the 2800, the R1 doesn't have artifacts as bad as the R2... maybe a bit of shimmering but not the huge blocking of the R2.
is the UK R2 a "bad" disc then?
Have you got your region modded, and if so how?
What about Pal-P?
I will buy this if it does not have the chroma bug, i can get it to play all regions and do Pal-P. So all info is appreciated.
magking- I thought it was already confirmed 100% that the 3800 has the chroma bug.
doh! another player bites the dust.
Sorry to disappoint you, magking. My player is still a virgin, i.e. not region free and no PAL-Prog. I'm not even sure that I will enter the R1-race; I'm quite happy with the R2:s that are available in Europe. But, never say never ....
As for the PAL-Prog, I'm also waiting and looking for news on possible upgrades. So far I haven't found anything. I believe that the old 2800 could be upgraded to output PAL-Prog.
And the chroma bug is there, but it didn't stop me from buying this player. I firmly believe, that there will be an upgrade available very soon ...
PennyLane - I'm not quite clear on what you meant there...
do you mean that a region free firmware will be available soon,
or that the chroma bug will be fixed?
they can probably "hide" it slightly but I doubt fix it.
the same was promised for the Denon 2800 and never happened.
Denon dont have a good record on this count... grrr..
good forum name by the way.
MartinCo - what I meant was that, according to DenonJeff (over on the AVS-forum), Denon would have needed an additional 3-6 months, to fix the Chroma Bug. But they decided to ship with the bug, but are still working on fixing it. That was a couple of months ago, so a fix should be on its way (I hope).
And yes, I do know about the problems with the 2800, but I'm sort of counting on them (Denon) not to make the same mistake twice.
Here's another interesting observation on the artifacts issue. I bought the Asterix&Obelix for my boys, but ended up returning it many times (to different shops). The reason was, that the picture (and the sound) cracked up completely about 1 hour into the movie. The cracking went on for about 10 minutes; eventually I had to skip forward, because the movie became "unwatchable" (does this word exist ? Well, if it doesn't, it definitively should!!).
This happened about a year ago, and I was using a Yamaha DVD-795. I finally found a copy of the movie, that only had "minor flaws", and kept it.
Then a few months back, my boys wanted to watch the movie, and once again it was completely unwatchable. The picture cracked the way it had done initially.
So when I got hold of the 3800 - guess what movie I used to put the player to a test. Yes, you're right - and the picture cracked !! Not the way it did with the Yamaha; it was a different kind of cracking, but in the end the movie was unwatchable. I felt very sad ....
But yesterday I wanted to give the movie a final go, and guess what !! The Asterix&Obelix-movie played with a 100% perfect picture and sound. No sign of whatsoever artifacts, which makes me a very happy Denon-owner
Could it be, that this sophisticated player needs some "burning in", before it shows it full potential. Well, that's the thought that occurred to me, and I just wanted to share my findings with you and thus maybe stopping you from returning the player if it doesn't show well when put to "right out of the box"-test
PS. I like it too - for obvious reasons
interesting... so Denon admit they are shipping a product with bugs.
seriously though... if the lifespan of an a/v product is measured in months now, promising a bug fix in 6 months time is a bit of a joke really.
it could very easily not happen.
by this time, the product will either have disappeared or a new version will probably be coming out.
if the 2800 is anything to go by, firmware isnt even going to be readily available.. possibly dealer only.
I'd rather have a product that works, out of the box, no problems... the Denon isnt YET.. not even multi-region.
also I thought, based on the chipset, the best they could do with the chroma bug was hide it... but not fix it completely.
Sorry for not keeping up with this thread. I haven't seen the 3800 I think we were sent one in error and it's gone back, unopened.
As for fixing the chroma bug later....I don't think so.
It's a fault in the design of the mpeg decoding chipset used in the majority of DVD players. The way that sage de-interlacing chipsets work can help to mask the effect of the "bug". The 3800 is not sage chipset based though so it's not going to help.
The only way I can see they can fix it is to re-design the unit using an alternative mpeg decoding chip.
Having said that the chroma bug is very rarely visible
A very quick run through of my new 3800 (my 2800 mkI was replaced by Mediacheckpoint due to the artifacts mentioned elsewhere..can't fault their service) shows the following;
1) Matrix has no blocking
2) Se7en still shows some background blocking but improved over the 2800.
3) quickly ran all the 'difficult' disks I could think of for r2..all played.
4) Excellent picture and sound.
5) Any 2800 owner will recognise the case instantly....
6) Currently r2 only so only progressive output I've seen is the menus and PhotoCDs (neat feature by the way) and it looks excellent...we just need that new firmware now!
I'll post a fuller account when I've had more of a play, and a considered opinion.
that's interesting Ian... just about to post an update on the 2800 artifact thread btw.
I've had 24 Hrs with the 3800 now and have even watched a movie the whole way through! (doesn't happen very often..)
Overall I think it is an improvement over the 2800. In audio terms (with CD) it is a much more enjoyable sound to listen to...with my 2800 I tended to use it as a transport and use the DACS in my Denon 3801...with the 3800 the analogue sound it puts it is noticeably superior.
I haven't got any DVD-A disks (yet) so all my listening so far has been in two channel stereo.
MP3s play back very well with various improvements in the menu system for track listing. Also as an added bonus if your CDR/CDRW has any .jpgs on it it will show these too.
PhotoCD compatibility is very useful and bring the hideous prospect of boring your friends rigid with your holiday snaps slideshow just that little bit nearer. You are allowed to zoom in on the images, rotate and flip them and in progressive scan the image quality is exceptional.
The player is as sturdy as the 2800 and in fact the case is almost exactly the same. The old progressive scan blue light is now used as an indicator for 'AL24 processig plus' and is in fact illuminated the whole time..I can't see the point of this!
The HDCD light has now become an indicator for DVDAudio, the cetral LED panel is a bit more crammed as it now shows information on which audio tracks are playing, prog scan mode, HDCD etc. The only new addition to the case is a switch for Direct mode which allows two presets to be programmed to switch off video, digital output and display respectively. Initially this switch does nothing as the default is for everything to remain on until you have changed the settings in the onscreen GUI. Superficially I cannot hear any difference by switching off parts of the circuitry..I'll let you know on more detailed listening.
The player and GUI is significantly faster in operation. The menus are improved over the 2800 and there is more detailed control in particular for the picture presets. Gamma control is configured by use of a bar graph, and all other controls allow significant picture changes.
As I mentioned the opening scenes of The Matrix show none of the blocking seen on the 2800, but Se7en does still break up in interior background scenes (though to a lesser degree). There are additional settings to Progressive Scan which allow 'Mode1 and Mode 2'. I'm currently watching in interlaced only, but nonetheless these do not seem to make any difference, and in fact reading the manual seem to be mainly for correcting difficulties in recognising the type of pulldown to use for film/video sources.
I've been watching my 3800 on a Sim2 HT200DM. On this combination despite all you have read, the chroma bug can be seen if you look REALLY hard for it, but simply is not an issue.
Last but not least I am running the player in R2 only as supplied. There is so far no multi region firmware available, and hence the progressive aspect of this player is completely useless apart from PhotoCD. £1000 is a lot to pay for a prog. scan PhotoCD player so I hope some enterprising 'hacker' releases something soon. If I hear anything I'll let you know..
I'll keep you up to date as I live with this player a little longer.
I've now watched two DVDs in progressive by a devious route -
R0 Criterion copies of Long Good Friday and the Beastie Boys.
Happy to report the picture is crisp, rock solid and detailed enough to show film grain.
Still no sign of a hack yet though....aussie rumours re. the A1 say that the current multi region firmware freezes the machine...no thanks I'll wait for the rock solid one!
if you're interested there is an update on the denon mkII firmware situation, now says
"More difficulties with the new files for the mk2 than expected !! Release in Sept.2002"
makes you wonder about a release for the 3800 if they are having problems with this one.
I would have agreed with you but in the US a firmware update is available from Denon and according to users over there the results are excellent.
The only problem is that this fix might interfer with the region hack from www.dvdupgrade.ch
I am planning to purchase the 3800 from Mediacheckpoint but I was planning to wait for the Chroma bug fix to become available over here (it is now available in the US on request from Denon).
Did you consider getting the region hack from www.dvdupgrade.ch ?
They sure did ... nice to see that some one is honest about making a so called "Business Decision"
hmmm.. imagine Denon selling cars.
not a pretty thought.
they're getting close to microsoft levels with the current and previous models now.
I don't need macrovision off, I don't like the idea of soldering inside my player, and I'd like someone else to try out the firmware (which sounds like a DIY job) before I give it a go.
Plus..I think it is overpriced!
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