Denon 3800 and component output – not running properly with PAL-movies

[PennyLane]

I posted this question on the AVS-forum earlier today, but as this seems to be a Reg2-problem, I thought I’d post it here as well. Maybe someone has a solution to my problem. Anyway, I’ve had my Denon-3800 hooked up to an Epson TW-100 using a S-video cable for some weeks now, and the picture quality is just – awesome. Simply mind-blowing !! And when I painted my home-made MDF-screen grey, the PQ got even better. But the strive for better PQ goes on, and last night I tested a component cable for the very first time. Well, a truly great picture turned even better, with darker blacks, sharper images, more depth, more details – in short, more of everything !!

After doing the AVIA-calibration I run a few movies, and everything was fine – until all of a sudden I didn’t get a proper image, i.e. the picture disappeared for a few seconds and then it was back for a few seconds (flickering) and then it was gone again and so on. I tested some ten movies, and the following ones played OK: “Golden Eye”, ”Legally Blond”, ”Dirty Harry” and Spy Game”. The picture was distorted when running ”Titanic”, ”MI2”, ”Cast Away” and ”LOTR”. All of the movies are Reg2.

Accidentally I found the reason for the flickering image. The projector seems to receive a 525i(60)-signal, even though I’m running a Reg2 (PAL) – disk. The signal type can be checked in one of the menus of the projector. I assumed that something was wrong with the set-up on my DVD-player, and pressed the set up-button on the remote. As a result, the movie stopped (not so strange), and I get a perfect picture (this is strange!!). And when I check the signal type on the projector is said 625i(50). Very strange !! When I pressed play, the flickering image was back and the signal was back to 525i(60). I may add, that when running the movies that played OK, the signal was 625i(50) all the time (when running and when in set-up-mode). The Video-Out on my Denon 3800 is set to Interlaced, and the AV1-Video-Out is set to S-video.

I also noticed, that the AV1-Video-Out affects the Component output (according to the manual, the AV1-Video-Out affects only the Scart-output). When I set the AV1-Video-Out to RGB-mode, the player sent a progressive signal regardless of the settings of the Video-Out (Progressive/Interlaced), meaning that no Reg2-disk played properly. That’s why I run it in S-video-mode.

Does anyone have similar experiences or an explanation to what’s going on ?? Or even better - a solution to the problem ?? Maybe the new firmware will solve the problem ?

 

[ian_guinan]

What happens when you press the PAL/NTSC button on the remote?

Is it consistently the same disks which won't play back, or is it intermittent?

I've not seen this problem myself but had noticed the AV1 setting affects the other outputs.

I'll have a go at trying out the disks you mentioned.

Regards,
Ian Guinan

 

[PennyLane]

Well, Ian, I just found out about this problem last night, meaning I haven't had time to try it out a second time. And I don't remember ever seeing a PAL/NTSC-button on the remote, but that may be du to the fact that I've never needed one. But I'll try it out, because this definitely is a PAL/NTCS-problem. Thanks for the hint

But it doesn't explain why some discs play and others don't.

 

[PennyLane]

Well, it looks as though I’ve solved the mystery myself. Last night I once again checked the same discs as the night before, with identical results. I tried to press the PAL/NTSC-button on the remote control, but that didn’t help.

Having once again gone through all options in the menu of the Denon-3800, I finally approached the player itself.
Well, nothing there, that you can’t find on the remote. Well, except for the Pure Direct-button. I turned it to Mode1 and then to Mode2 and back to Mode1 and then to the Off-position, and then back to Mode1 and so on, when all of a sudden, the picture was there !! I was so eager, that I even turned it once more, and then it was gone.

Well, I’ll cut the story short. It appears, that turning the Pure Direct-button helps the player finding the right output for the disk (625i). This has nothing to do with the “final” position of the Pure Direct-button, because I got the picture in Mode1 and Mode2 as well as in the Off-mode.

If the problem relates to a bug in the Firmware, I hope that the upgrade everyone’s talking about now, will fix this problem as well.

 

[ian_guinan]

Very strange and worth letting Denon know about I think. I haven't been able to reproduce this so far as I don't have any of the disks you listed..if you find any others that do this then let me know.

I've spent one evening with the player panicking that it wouldn't ouput anything before I discovered I'd left it in Mode 2, which I had programmed with display off and video off for CD listening....doh!

Should be interesting to see if the new firmware does the same.

Regards
Ian Guinan

 

[PennyLane]

Thanks for your interest, Ian !

I went home on my lunch break, to test some more discs. Out of 15 tested, 10 didn't play properly.

These ones were OK:
-The Silence of the Lambs
-The Terminator SE
-Notting Hill
-North by Northwest
-Training Day

These ones played with a flickering/disappearing image:
-There's Something about Mary
-Matrix
-Saving Private Ryan
-Die Hard SE
-Braveheart
-The Rock SE
-Erin Brockovich
-Moulin Rouge CE
-The Sixth Sense
-As Good as it Gets

 

[ian_guinan]

The Matrix R2 plays very well on mine without any problems, in interlaced PAL component. I'll try it again tonight. Do you know what firmware you have in your player?

Regards,
Ian Guinan

 

[petrolhead]

PennyLane

Bit confused. You earlier said you sorted the problem out but you last past says that some films still ficker.

Can you confirm

Ta

 

[PennyLane]

Petrolhead,

I’m sorry if I was a bit unclear on this issue. When I said that I had solved the mystery, I meant that I had found out, that the player actually misreads some of the discs -> the output signal is 525i. But there is nothing wrong with the discs, because I was able to “fool” the player into outputting the correct signal (625i), by turning the Pure Direct-knob to different positions.

This means, that ALL the films mentioned in my "flickering"-list still flicker, but by turning the Pure-Direct-knob the way I already described (to Mode1 and then to Mode2 and back to Mode1 and then to the Off-position, and then back to Mode1 and so on ... ), I MAY get the player to output a 625i(50)-signal.

For example, I managed to do this on "LOTR" and "Titanic", but failed to get a good picture on "The Fifth Element". I've sent a mail about this "bug" to the technical support in Germany, but so far I haven't heard anything from them. I’ll let you know as soon as I get a reply.

PS. You may not be able to detect this “bug” on the films I mentioned, because they are likely to be from different pressings, but you are welcome to try them out. So far I haven’t found any clue as to what causes this flickering, because the films on my lists doesn’t seem to have anything in common.

 

[petrolhead]

Cheers

Thats much clearer

 

[PennyLane]

Ian, the firmware is ESS 6094 (with DRV 6100 and PANEL 6093) ... and last night, when watching some scenes of LOTR, I had to turn the Pure Direct-knob some 40-50 times, before the player went into 625i - mode

 

[ian_guinan]

Not good

You are too tolerant..if I had one like this it would have gone back by now. Might be worth trying the firmware out on Sat, but the problem then is that your dealer may try and blame it on the upgraded firmware. Without the original firmware to revert to you could be stuck with a dodgy machine.

I would take yours back..swap it out, and then when you are happy the problems have stopped try the region free firmware.

One last shot though..have you had your projector syncing properly with any other PAL interlaced source?

Regards,
Ian GUinan

 

[PennyLane]

It's actually not so much being tolerant; it's more like not wanting to live without a player for maybe a month

The player was bought from MCP (Germany), and I just talked to Stefan Einloft about it. We agreed, that I would send him a copy of the E-mail I sent to Denon in Germany two days ago (haven't heard anything from them), and Stefan promised to give them a ring.

He also mentioned, that there is a PAL-progressive firmware update for 3800 available since yesterday, but we agreed that it may not be wise to try to upgrade the firmware, until we know what’s wrong with the player.

Of course I could ask MCP, who is an official Denon retailer, to provide me with a copy of the original Firmware, and then try to do the upgrade. And if it doesn’t help, I could install the original Firmware and send the player back.

Now, why didn’t I think of that, when I talked to him on the phone. I think I’ll send him another E-mail …

 

[magking]

You better mail him again.
And if you get the disk, you would'nt mind shearing it with us. Right?

 

[ian_guinan]

I think Stefan Einloft is getting confused with the A-1 firmware I emailed him yesterday...he should be able to sort you out though if you do decide on another machine.

Regards,
Ian Guinan

 

[PennyLane]

I've E-mailed them again, but they don't have the original firmware

They will discuss my component-problem with Denon on Monday, and I suggested that they should ask for the original firmware as well. If I should get it, I don't mind sharing it

 

[ian_guinan]

Having the original firmware would be a lifesaver for all of us about to start flashing our 3800s. Otherwise Denon will be able to wash their hands of us if there are problems...'well, we are sure the machine would have been alright if you hadn't loaded up that illegal firmware etc etc'

Regards,
Ian Guinan