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Denon 2800MKII - Might have to go the way of the dinosaurs!!!

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by rscott4563, Jan 29, 2003.

  1. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    I've currently got a 2800MKII with the latest firmware including Pal Prog, but I have to say I'm not all that impressed with it, for the £750 I paid for it last summer I expected a whole lot better quality.

    I've had one replacement due to dodgy firmware, but the one I have now isn't all that good.

    I think it has problems with artefacts especially with dark scenes I see quite a bit of digital blocking and the colours and definition don't seem all that amazing, well not for £750....
    I'm watching it thru a Pal Prog compatible 32in CRT.

    I'm very soon looking at upgrading my display for either a 42in (at least) plasma (probably a piomxe) or a projector (possibly a sony hs10 or something a bit more expensive if anyone has any suggestions??) or both for different viewing styles and I am wondering what peoples suggestions are for an upgrade to the 2800MKII suitable for these types of displays?????

    Image quality is a very high priority.

    Please help!!! Thanks
     
  2. kn2468

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    Depends if PAL prog is necessary.

    I would recommend the Pio 757 - but only NTSC prog. New but I've only heard good things and it demoed beuatifully.

    Some comments on the Philips 963 in this forum gives mixed reviews.

    Pity the 757 is not PAL prog - else it would be the whiskers!
     
  3. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    I think if I'm wanting the very best picture quality for either plasma or pj I'll really need Pal Prog.
     
  4. kn2468

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    Given your bad experience with Denon - will you look at the Denon 3800. It will offer the PAL prog.

    Else Arcam DV88+.

    Both of the above are expensive though.
     
  5. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    I wont completely write off Denon due to my experience with the 2800MKII, especially as my amp is a Denon 2802 which I feel performs excellently.

    Does anyone have any first hand experience of the 2800MKII and any other players that they believe give a better quality picture?
     
  6. Spligsey

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    After viewing a couple of models from the Denon range (2800 & 3800) i think that there appears to be (to my eyes) a touch of 'artificially' added colour..I suppose to me it doesn't look natural.

    As mentioned, the Arcam 88/88+ is a good player(s)
    The colour balance looked more natural to my eyes.

    Bit more dosh though.

    Adzman
     
  7. gringottsdirect

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    I had a 2800 , tried 2800 Mk 2 at home and at dealers.
    I agree with you with regard to 2800 Mk 2.
    I have a Denon DVD-3800 and a Philips DVD-963SA.
    Personally, completely fed up with Denon, but have to say DVD-3800 is best value for money, DVD-963SA runs it close.

    If possible have a good demonstration of DVD-3800 with tricky discs, I think you'll like it
     
  8. allanrose

    allanrose
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    dunno what all the grumblings about!

    bought my MkII dec 2002 - latest firmware and software - totally faultless - talk to you dealer and get an upgrade
     
  9. Dave Gray

    Dave Gray
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    I originally bought a Denon 2800 MKII in December with the latest PAL Prog firmware. I got horrible lip sync on my Panny Plasma on both NTSC and PAL Prog scan, also bad chroma bug problems.
    Took it back to my Dealer, swapped it for the Arcam DV88plus.
    The Arcam is a much better player: No lip sync problems, better chroma bug handling, much better sound (CD especially), more natural realistic colours, fantastic technical support. Cost me £900 from Creative Audio in Shrewsbury, worth every penny!:D
     
  10. ASH1

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    rscott4563,

    I had a Denon 2800 and a 2800mk2 both with different problems.
    I've now upgraded to the 3800 and even though I've only had it a week I'm well impressed, the different in quality is plain to see.:) I also use it with PAL progressive through my Panasonic TX32PH40. If you can afford this kind of price range it's worth giving it a look or maybe the Arcam DV89 out later this month, which has Pal prog already. If you go for a 3800 make sure the last five digits of the serial No. are higher than 1000 (gold version) as these have the latest firmware/pick-up's.
    Not sure about the black version but Denon UK can tell you.

    ASH1
     
  11. Costas

    Costas
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    rscott4563
    Sometimes these things get very personal on taste... however I have spent a lot of time looking at the Denon and the Arcam but I went for the Pio 757Ai even without the PAL PS. It is really well designed for a plasma and hopefully a firmware for PAL PS will become available. To me a PAL PS picture from the Denon or Arcam did NOT look any better on plasma compared with the 757Ai interlaced. I am not sure how many people have done this test but I demonstrated to 3 of my friends and they thought the same. On the other hand there is all this push and hype about PAL PS in our forum but quite few do not see the same improvement with PAL PS that you see with NTSC progressive scan ..at least on plasmas
     
  12. laurie

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    True...but for those with normal size TV's PS is a waste of time those with projectors like myself get better DETAIL from PS not more RESOLUTION that is why when I see reviews of dvd's movies what the reviewer saw on his 76cm tv is not what I am watching at 136" diag via PS it really shows up flaws at that size!
    cheers laurie
     
  13. Costas

    Costas
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    good point for projectors...
     
  14. ASH1

    ASH1
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    I agree, you will see a better improvement with PS (N.T.S.C..or PAL) when used with plasma's or projectors than you will with a CRT, but surely any improvement is better than none. And I think for those of us without a plasma or projector but have a PS DVD player hope to move up to plasma's or projectors at some point.;)
     
  15. rscott4563

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    I totally agree, surely we all buy with the intention of being of as future proof as possible and where as I currently only have a 32" Panasonic CRT I've bought or am trying to buy all of my equipment with the future in mind so maybe I don't need a DVD player of the Denon 2800MKII quality right now, I feel its a lot more sensible to spend around 7 hundred now rather than a couple of hundred on a mid range Toshiba then in a years time spend another 3 or 4 hundred on a better player then when you can finally afford that projector and garage conversion spend another 7 or 8 hundred on a player that can actually do your display justice...

    My motto is when buying anything always buy the very best you can afford, in the end you'll save money and be a lot happier with your purchases.
     
  16. BoG

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    Sorry rscott4563 don't agree with you at all. If history teaches us anything its that electronic kit gets cheaper and better specified by the second. I would like a PAL progressive DVD player to go with my Sharp XV-Z90E projector but none of the currently available alternatives gave good enough value for money in my opinion. Tosh and Pioneer will almost certainly bring out a sub £500 PAL prog DVD player in the next year. At least then I will have a decent choice to make.
     
  17. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    Yeah but then do you buy the Tosh or Pioneer player or do you then wait a bit longer cause you know there'll be a cheaper and better player out six months or a year later?? Where do you draw the line, if you join the "I'll wait and see what comes out next or if it's cheaper in a couple of months" camp then you end up never getting anything or you'll never be happy with what you do buy because you'll always be looking at what you could have got a few months down the line?!?
     
  18. ASH1

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    rscott4563,

    Bang on the nail, I couldn't of but it better myself.
    I've only had my Denon 3800 a week when I was told about the next player lined up with S.A.C.D and DVD-A. But at least I'll get a good return on this unit if I decide to trade up.

    There will always be something better or cheaper in a few mouth's time.:D
     
  19. Costas

    Costas
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    rscott4563

    The Pio DV-757Ai has already got DVD-A, SACD and standard iLink (which a lot of the AV amps will offer in the future). You can buy it for less than 650 pounds. Valued for the quality and features offered against the price you pay it is simply an excellent investment... at least inmy opinion. As mentioned, Pio should confirm a PAL PS firmware upgrade sooner or later. Finally this player has not given any problems to the owners following this forum
     
  20. BoG

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    I agree with your sentiments in principle but in this instance I happen to think that Denon and Arcam are pricing their kit artificially high for the PAL progressive facilities that they are offering being first to the market. I have seen very mixed reviews of the Denon 2800 MKII considering its price band and the Arcam is generally well received but for a £1000 DVD it is nothing less that I would expect. I recently bought a Sharp XV-Z90E projector and started looking for my first surround sound system to accompany it. After listening to the various offerings from Denon and Arcam in the £2000-£2500 bracket and was distinctly underwhelmed. As such I decided to wait and bought a Pioneer DCS-303 all-in-one.

    Now you may think that this is a bit ludicrous but the picture and sound from this system to a novice like me in nothing short of miraculous for £335 MR. It has allowed me to dip a toe in the waters of surround sound and I now know a lot more about what I think I want from a system and will maybe upgrade at sometime in the future at which time I will probably pass the Pioneer on to my daughter.

    For those of you that have experience in AV kit then spending substantial amounts of cash on a system that satisfies your needs is acceptable. Judging by the amount of posts on the forum from disgruntled users I suspect that you may be in the minority however.
     
  21. juboy

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    Really? Could you point me in the direction of some as I've had trouble finding anything but high praise for this machine, which I admit I've been suspicious of.
     
  22. BoG

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    I tend to source magazines for in-depth reviews of kit and head-to-head comparisons. I have seen a couple of very favourable reviews of the Denon 2800MkII in recent months (unfortunately I can't recall the exact mags). However when you consult on-line resources such as this forum (refer to the first post of this thread from rscott4563 for instance) and www.audioreview.com you get postings from actual users which at times can be less than encouraging.

    I personally put a fair amount of stock on these "real" tests because I feel that they are more long-term live-with-the-kit type reviews than the mags. Obviously if one guy is ranting about a rough deal and everyone else seems happy then you may want to treat this as a one-off. However when several people are complaining about problems then caveat emptor comes to mind. Do a search on this forum for Denon 2800 and see what it throws up (good and bad).
     
  23. juboy

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    BoG - I have been reading the user experiences with interest. I've been trying to decide between the 2800MkII and a Pioneer 757i and admit that the reliability issues relating to the Denon are worrying.

    However, I finally ordered the 2800MkII today, if I'm honest mainly for the layer change buffer feature which really appeals to me.

    I figure if it plays up at all it'll go straight back from whence it came :)

    You have to also take into account the number of players sold Vs. number of duff units and the higher chance that someone will post with complaints than they will with praise... if you look through the forum long enough, you can convince yourself that there's not a single AV product worth buying :devil:
     
  24. gringottsdirect

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    It is also transparent that postings also appear from " high-end " dealers dissing highly specified mainstream models to worry potential buyers into dropping their cash onto their " specialist " brands.
    Don't buy Brand X it suffers from Y, I bought Brand W, it's absolutely perfect, outclasses all others and is the best money I ever spent. Regards Z :boring:
     
  25. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    Definitely agree there, I get the feeling that there's a lot of that going on in these forums?!

    So the key is don't believe everthing you read!

    (its just a shame some people aren't more honest and don't own up to being in the trade when they're making comments)
     
  26. neil housden

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    Here's what Denon told me when I complained about lip sync problems on the 2800. It felt a bit like a kick you know where, and then a request to spend more money with them. Buyer beware I guess:



    Dear Sir



    Thank you for your enquiry. We often hear of lip-synch problems from customers and, as you may know, this is one of the most common problems experienced with the DVD format generally. This applies especially to “high-end” products which have some form of video processing such as line doubling/Progressive Scan that can cause a very slight delay to the video signal. Also, the problem is often due to the authoring of some DVD disc titles and for this reason the latest generation of Denon players (including the DVD-2800 MkII) all incorporate firmware and transport servo upgrades to compensate as much as possible for these discs.



    More recently Denon Japan have introduced an Audio Delay feature in the current top-of-the-range AVC-A1SR Amplifier and this is expected to be included on other more affordable models in the future. This enables the audio signal to be delayed by up to 200 milli-seconds to compensate for lip-synch problems.



    Other than that, the DVD-2800II includes all the latest firmware. There are no other fixes currently available. The only other adjustment that could help is to ensure that the delay times (ie “distance” settings) are set correctly in your amplifier.



    If at any time you wish to have your player checked in our service department to ensure it is running to specification, this can be arranged via your Authorised Denon Retailer. Please include at least one DVD that you have experienced the problem with.



    We hope that the overall picture and sound performance of your Denon player is up to your expectations.



    Best regards,



    Customer Support

    DENON

    Hayden Laboratories Ltd
     
  27. gringottsdirect

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    I believe in aliens but that's a step too far :D
     
  28. BoG

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    What are we saying here guys? That we can believe all the good comments but the negative ones have to be taken with a pinch of salt? Reviews eminating from the book depository are OK but those coming from the grassy knoll are dubious and those from Roswell are definitely suspect.

    I think that it's curious that some dealers would take the trouble to rubbish certain products but rival dealers (obviously above that sort of thing) wouldn't think to do that. I am not naive enough to imagine that it doesn't go on but I think that you have to evaluate the spectrum and type of comments to give a balanced view. Look at the various posting regarding the Philips DVD 963 for example. Obviously a very good player if you can manage to get your hands on a good one.

    I personally am very concerned about the numerous stories emerging regarding kit of all types that has obviously been repackaged being supplied as "new". What is really amazing is that the suppliers behind this don't even make a reasonable attempt to repackage the kit even half properly. It is only because customers accept the repackaged goods for one reason or another that suppliers try to get away with it. I have had experience of this with a Sony TV and refused the delivery point blank and got an immediate refund.
     
  29. gringottsdirect

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    I agree with you.
    Whether on-line suppliers have large numbers of returns that obviously just get sent to a different customer, or stores boxing up display / ex-demo items, it definitely seems to be increasing, or maybe forums just make us all more aware of it ?
    Personally, in shops I insist on brand new sealed goods, if buying on-line nowadays I telephone first to check availability, I make it clear on the phone my purchase must be sealed and brand new or they will receive it straight back.
    Obviously, over the years I have bought ex-demo / second-hand items that work perfectly, but the price reflects the situation.
     
  30. juboy

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    Absolutely. Most online stores must use couriers for their deliveries, most decent couriers have to obtain your signature when they deliver the goods... part of the reason for this is that you sign to except the goods in the condition they're in at the time.

    I always make sure I check that the goods are factory sealed and brand new before signing to accept the item. If it looks dodgy, I'll phone the store whilst the courier waits.
     

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