Demo of PLV60

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Metric, Jun 20, 2001.

  1. Metric

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    Anyone know where i can get a demo? its on my shortlist of 2, this and the sony but im concerned about the sony black levels and the sanyo screen door

    Thanks
    Mike
     
  2. Metric

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    come on, ya know ya wanna...maybe mr frost knows?
     
  3. HouseofMu

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    Could someone explain what 'the screen door' term refers too?

    Is it something to do with viewing distance?

    cheers.

    n.
     
  4. Jeff

    Jeff
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  5. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    "come on, ya know ya wanna...maybe mr frost knows?"

    We should have our first look at the PLV60 in about a week. Some of the Directors saw it at a trade show in America last week and said it looked good.

    However...I'm in two minds about this product.

    One the one hand the specs and performance seem very good. But on the other, some UK Internet traders are already discounting it very heavily, and this causes a bit of a problem for traditional dealers and any AV enthusiasts who want to see the product before they buy.

    The Internet price is so low that I feel it may actually discourage any bricks & mortar retailer from investing in a dem unit.

    Even if they manage to sell a projector, they'll be lucky if they make £160 on a £4500 investment. I could get a better return on my money by leaving it in a Cahoot bank account! :eek:

    So, do I invest the time showing a product to dealers who can't afford to sell it, or just leave this projector to be sold by Internet discounters? And if the Internet is the route, then how is anyone going to be able to get a dem?

    :( I've thought long and hard about this post before hitting the Add Reply button. This is a controversial situation. It is none of my business how much or little profit a dealer is prepared make on a sale. However, when a company effectively corners the market by offering a low price they also restrict your choices as consumers.

    I don't know if this thread will make it past the moderators, but if it does then I think it may provoke some interesting reactions.

    Regards
     
  6. Metric

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    indeed, a very candid response so i await the debate. Online prices so far have been about £4600, what is the actual retail? 5k is a fairly large investment and i feel that a company prepared to demo the unit would be worthy of a few more percent on their profit line and i for one would be happy to go that route. I already got 'stung' at xmas with a dlp by not having a demo and im already replacing it, so to not have one is a false economy.

    I wonder if a plv60 will make an appearence at the 'event'

    thanks for the info
    Mike
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The PLV60 will almost definately not be putting in an appearance at the Event.

    At SS I already have lost probably half the dems I have done to Internet or mail order shoppers for PLV30's. We have yet to re-coup our investment on that item. Now, I don't actually mind if folk come in and have a dem then decide that set up of the projector is simple and that they can buy it elsewhere for less and save a few hundred quid. That is there perogative. I don't mind as it builds awareness and lets more folk know that Home Cinema need not be prohibitively expensive for a half decent large screen picture.

    However, if we are going to stock any item at that retail price we have to be able to make enough money to stay in business and to provide decent back up and service. We also have to be able to sell enough in one year for the thing to pay for itself. This is impossible at the Internet discount price of this product. It's also impossible at the price we'd have to sell it for to accomplish this task. If we see one and it's amazing then I may re-consider but somehow I think it very unlikely.

    Sorry guys but them's the facts.......

    Gordon
     
  8. minimivic

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    Good points made by Chris and Gordon.
    It is becoming harder and harder to compete with the Internet based resellers.
    Talking from experience dem to sale rate is about 10-15% on projectors like these, we all know that people who have been to see projectors will have bought from somewhere else.
    I'll go no further ;)
     
  9. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    The retail price of the PLV60 is quoted as £5869 inc VAT by Sanyo.

    Regards
     
  10. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Personally I don't think that I would buy something as expensive as a PLV60 over the Internet. However I would still be looking for value for money. Example earlier this year I bought A Denon AVC-A1SE, at the time retail was £2500 and it was available on the Internet for about £2000. I bought mine from an authorised dealer for £2250, this seems about right to me. I think that proper shops should look to charge 10-15% above internet prices, beyond that level I would look else where.

    Jeff
     
  11. Metric

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    Jeff, know any B&M selling the plv60? i have few options i fear
     
  12. Metric

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    chris, on a side note, can you drop me an email about 16x9 screens that you can supply. Your site doesnt carry prices. It looks like i will have to get the sanyo on spec at the end of the month. Ive been reading alot and it seems that the screen door effect can be almost removed by slightly defocusing. It will be 12-13 feet back, so a screen width of 8feet should be achievable

    thanks
    Mike
     
  13. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I always said £6k!
     
  14. Metric

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    thats rrp, internet prices are 4600, which shows that b&m would strugle as chris suggests
     
  15. Metric

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    anyone know of any on/offline stockists for this unit?

    thanks
    M
     
  16. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    And I said in the region of £4,500 - looks like we were both right. :)

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  17. carol harvey

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    i think i welcome the situation where you can shop around and get the best price,the truth is this kit has been overpriced for many years and dealers have made vast profits,is the real complaint that not so much can now be made out of joe punter?
     
  18. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    cj,
    I can sympathise with your view. It often appears that electronic equipment seems relatively expensive. However, having worked at all levels of the supply chain from manufacturer down to retail shop floor, I can assure you that retailers have always had to compete for business in some way.

    Mass-market Japanese brands have always been sold on price to some degree. These products have required high volume sales which inevitably leads to price competition.

    English brands that are more exclusive sell in much smaller numbers. The commercial reality is that if fewer units are sold, each unit has to contribute a bigger percentage profit or the manufacturer goes out of business.

    In many cases, the high-end brands also include refinements and development work to improve their performance in some way.

    Over time, these tweaks filter down to lower cost models. Once again, the only way to finance these costs is to make a profit. And the only way these manufacturers survive is because Bricks & Mortar retailers take the time to do demonstrations and explain why brand X costs more than brand Y.

    As I said previously, it's none of my business what profit level a retailer makes. However, if traditional B&M retailers can't afford to stock and demonstrate a product then you, the consumer - hungry for knowledge and the opportunity to see a product in the flesh - it's you that loses out at the end of the day. Unless you're willing to go on blind faith then you won't be able to try before you buy.

    It's ironic that providing the lowest price actually reduces consumer choice rather than increasing it, but hey, I guess that's true free market economics at work.

    I think there comes a point when you have to ask; "how cheap is too cheap. What am I losing by saving a few quid?"

    Good B&M dealers provide support, advice and aftersales service that the internet can't match. Yes, these and other newsgroups are an invaluable source of information, but there is no substitute for someone with knowledge and experience coming in to your home to say "OK, lets show you what this bit of kit can really do!"

    Good service has a value, but it's up to each buyer to decide what its worth.

    Regards
     
  19. ReTrO

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    Well said Chris!


    Rick
     
  20. ian_guinan

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    I sympathise to some extent with Chris's views about pricing, but there are limits to the extra I'm prepared to spend to subsidise my local B&M dealers. I'm looking at progressive scan players and have been quoted a price from my local dealer for a multi-region machine a full 40% higher than buying exactly the same machine from an internet supplier...and this for a level of product knowledge somewhat less than could be gained by spending an hour reading this forum (or browsing the manufacturers site).

    I am prepared to pay a premium for demos and informed advice as I know only too well how easy it is to buy something that ultimately turns out to be disappointing otherwise. I do think that some of the margins expected by some UK dealers are unrealistic and are driving customers into the arms of internet operations.

    The manufacturers are a substantial part of this process I believe. They are so keen to keep the premium prices paid by UK customers, for the positioning of their brands as 'upmarket', (You know who you are...Denon, Sony et al) that they are not prepared to offer the same trade discounts to B&M retailers that are offered to internet discounters or insist on RRPs being maintained to sustain their dealer status.

    In the end (for the mo') this is still a very specialised and niche market, and we rely on advice from pioneering retialers like yourselves...any help in keeping those prices low is still very much appreciated though!

    Regards,

    Ian Guinan
     
  21. ReTrO

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    I wouldn't say that Denon and Sony are upmarket really. i think the upmarket makes are more in line with Arcam, Lexicon and Rotel, that sort of thing.


    Rick
     
  22. Metric

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    id say denon were
     
  23. carol harvey

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    Chris,
    I can sympathise with dealers who have to finance all the demo`s,the staff wages,the overheads etc,-with an increased price on the product.but the holy grail for consumers has always been a great product at a great price,hence the mass market penetration by the sonys and yamahas of this world.
    Consumers though still buy into the claptrap of because its Lexicon its 6 times more expensive for essentially the same thing..o.k.i know its better,but does the level of extra performance justify the extra price? i think not!
    This scenario is happening with projectors now-and about time-wev`e been ripped off on projector prices for many years-we all know that-it can no longer be for the consumer to subsidise an esoteric product that is vastly overpriced-because its made in someones shed with loving care.

    All consumers should demand a great service-and retailers should compete against each other for our custom and the right to earn OUR money,now the retailers who try and push this..i know im expensive,but you`ll get a cup of coffee and a demo(but i`m 2 grand dearer) are doomed to die out-and about time.
    Because like high end high fi,its a load of cobblers.
    I want the best price i can get and if the dealer has to wine and dine me to get my business-so be it!!(..but i aint paying 2 grand for a cuppa!!)
     
  24. ReTrO

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    The reason Lexicons et. al gear is sooo expensive is usually because they cost loads to develope (R&D) and they make small numbers of them. If they sold loads more then they would cost less.

    But people can't afford them, so they only make small numbers, so the prices stay high, etc...

    It's one of those viscous cirlces!

    Aargh!

    rick
     
  25. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    CJ: Just to pick up on one of your comments that ReTrO has mentioned too.

    Is Lexicon/ product X worth 6 times more than product Y. Well the answer to that depends on what terms you judge value for money. Is a hamburger that costs 10p good value for money if you spit it out as soon as you bite it.... or is a prime steak at 100 times the price that you enjoy every bite of good value for money......

    The point it that everyone has different minimum standards below which they will not put up with a product. So, for those that find the performance of a Denon or Yamaha etc too low then a Lexicon may well offer exceptional value for money.

    One mans meat etc, etc.

    Gordon
     
  26. carol harvey

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    Its a myth that because a product costs oodles it must have had high r and d costs.
    The reality is,that for a smidgen of improvement some people will pay fortunes-and this is capitalised on by certain manufacturers.
    these same people think if a product is cheap it cant be any good-thats rubbish..a lot of these high end manufacturers source their components from the same oem`s that supply the mass market manufacturers.the difference is,the companies that source their components in bulk get a better price.
    I once worked for one of the modem giants of the industry and was involved in sourcing u.k.cables for supply with the modem.
    These cables-in bulk -in the u.k.were costing me 1.99 each.
    I wound up sourcing the same cable from Taiwan for 25 pence!(same quality).
    This saving was not translated onto the punter that bought the modem-but the modem company made far greater profits as they were selling 10,000 of these modems per week(..and 10,000 cables)-you work out the savings.

    But some companies might pass on this saving--thats the only difference.
    Look at the spec and components of a lot of these cheaper products-and you find the same capacitors...the same power supply...the same cables etc..etc..

    The trick is for the punter to discover who is giving them a fair deal-and who isnt.

    The biggest tragedy is that the home cinema market seemed to be going the same way as high end hi-fi went-where enterprising dealers armed with a cup of coffee and a demo room spouted cobblers about delineation and transparency and conned the gullible into spending fortunes(..just like the good old hi-fi days).
    It started to get to the point that you were a total waste of space unless you had a 9ft screen and a 30k projector.
    Thankfully,certain manufacturers are making very good products now at keen prices-and internet retailers are aiming for bulk sales with sensible sales prices-this is the future! high street retailers will have to find ways to become competative or they will not survive.
    They will need to offer free installs,free picture tweaking every six months,part exchange at a sensible trade price(..what has always bugged me,is though the retailers are keen for you to upgrade every 12mths-they are very reluctant to px-they want it all ways..)
    They will need to offer things that internet retailers cannot-but as i said,a cup of coffee and a plush demo room should not cost me an extra 2 grand!
     
  27. ian_guinan

    ian_guinan
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    Retro 'I wouldn't say that Denon and Sony are upmarket really'....no, neither would I, but they would like to market themselves as such, hence the quotes around 'upmarket'.
     
  28. Operandi

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    I agree with CJ's thoughts above and the concept behind them is very familiar to me, but for a different industry. I work in the computer industry and see the PC daily becoming more of a commodity, bought and sold on price above almost any other factor (as performance is pretty standard across products for any given price point.) The dealers/distributors and resellers that were dependent on selling just hardware in a rapidly commoditising market are long gone.

    The suvivors are those companies that recognised that they had to change their business model by reducing their reliance on low margin hardware sales and moving onto high margin services. This is happening in the HiFi/HT market where B&M retailers have to concede defeat to the eTailers, but to servive they have to offer innovative services led products and services. Those that do make this transition will be well placed for the future as they will win repeat business and loyal customers. Many existing retailers will probably fail as they will be unable to evolve their business model in such an aggressive commodity market.
     
  29. Metric

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    anyway..back to the topic
     
  30. carol harvey

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    Metric,
    Try mars bars there nicer still! :D :D :D :D
     

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