pfaz
Standard Member
Apologies for the length here, the TLDR version is "what's wrong with the lyngdorf!"
Longer version...
So I ventured out to my first hi-fi demo in decades yesterday in search a streaming solution (single box or separates + speakers) after years of good hifi being confined to headphones due to space. Many years ago I had a classic Linn/Naim setup (LP12, 72/HiCap/250, Linn Kan 2’s) which I loved and sorely miss and so I'm really looking forward to getting a new system now I have the space to enjoy it. This is a 7m x 4m room where the speakers will be firing lengthways with seating approx halfway.
Music tastes are varied (doesn't everyone say that?) and the system will also be used for movies.
My initial shortlist/starting after weeks of reading reviews and this forum is made up of the Lyngdorf TDAI 1120, Naim Uniti Atom and Hegel H120 partnered with Kef LS50 Meta/R3's. To repeat, this really is a starting point as I'm going in cold after years in the hifi wilderness. Decisions like bookshelf/stand mounted vs floorstanders, single box vs separates, subwoofers, etc... are all up for debate but I need to start somewhere.
Yesterday I had a demo of the three amps above and tried these all with the LS50 metas, R3's. The dealer also kindly threw on a pair of Sonus Faber Sonetto IIs and a pair of Klipsch Heresy IV's because why not. Yes there's a big diff in price with the latter but my budget is sort of 'flexible' meaning if I don't mind paying more for substantial gains if I can hear it and the Klipsch were sitting next to the demo room so I thought let's give them a try.
My feedback on the above...
First up was the Naim + LS50s. Tried a few well known tracks and they were hugely impressive in the level of scale/weight when you see how small these things are. There was bags of lovely detail coming forth and I thought this is a great start. However after a few tacks I was clearly hearing a hardness in the upper midrange/treble on female vocals, percussion, etc.. which wasn’t very pleasant and quite surprising. Based on reading I have to assume this forwardness was coming from the amp which is reported as exciting, dynamic, etc.. but it wasn’t a sound that I thought I would love to listen to over long period with certain music types. Shock to system though as I really thought I’d find this pairing hard to fault as a packge. Of course there's a shed load of variables here; speaker position, cables, room acoustics, etc... Anyway I moved on and swapped the LS50s for the R3's. Immediately the whole sense of scale went up a notch, the stage seemed to come forward and open up and inevitable personal taste came into play, preferring the the R3's over the LS50. However there remained this same hardness which I’d heard on the LS50’s which was I decided was the ‘naim sound’ which I was finding myself not keen on which was a big surprise. Maybe whipping out an old LP12 with it’s warm balance would have been just the cure.
So ok, getting rid of the Naim for the moment - we put the LS50's back and introduced the Lyngdorf. I had high hopes for the Lyngdorf (if I was being honest my unqualified bias before the demo based on research had the Lyngdorf at the top as I’m a software engineer/tech guy and love the idea of Room Perfect and what it’s trying to do). For the demo we left RP disabled so yes it's at a disadvantage but my view was if it's competitive without it then with RP it should take home the prize. At this point we hit a strange problem which was never resolved through the whole demo which was a lack of volume/power which manifested itself as having the volume control at 95%+ to get what I would consider a good listening level. On the Naim I don’t think I got above 60. I understand the LS50's can be difficult to drive but the difference in output power was just plain baffling. We dove into the settings to check if there was some configured volume limit in place but everything looked good. If this is not a problem then I’d struggle to purchase the 1120 as it would mean running an amp where I’m running at near max volume constantly. At 50% it literally sounded like background noise. Reading the forums this really sounds out of character.
So next up was the Hegel H120. A bluesound Node 2i was broad in to facilitate the streaming duty which I didn't realise would be needed (tidal support on Hegel?) but fair enough. Hands up, the Hegel was my left field choice, given my Naim track record and Lyngdorf with RP I really thought it would come down to these two in this price bracket. How glad I was that I didn’t discount it completely. Immediately there was a sense of scale/weight/size out of the H120 that the Naim wasn’t reproducing. However it wasn’t loose at all, it just seemed to reveal lower frequencies and had a ease of drive and dynamics that I was struggling to pick up in the Naim. Maybe this is a function of output power? However the real kicker was that in addition to these perceived benefits, all of the forward/hardness that I found unpleasant with the Naim was gone and I’d now found a balance that suited my own old ears and tastes. This was starting to really get somewhere.
So off went the LS50's, in came the R3 and everything the R3 did over the LS50 with the Naim was reproduced with the Hegel again with the big increase in scale, weight, bigger stage and to me more detail, space around everything. This is very apparent at higher volumes where I found the LS50 started to struggle to keep composure, the R3 on the other hand seemed much more sensitive and able to play louder with ease which is no surprise given the size. BTW, back on the volume side vs the Lyndorf, the Hegel was pretty much as loud as I would comfortably listen (and probably louder) at 60-65 on the volume so in the same ballpark as the Naim which again underlined my curiosity over potential issues with the Lyngdorf setup.
I then tried a couple of speaker changes, the Sonus Faber's and the Heresy's mentioned above. The SF with the Hegel didn't work to me. Beautiful midrange/vocals but sounded rolled off, lost some excitement/dynamics. Putting the Naim in place here was a much better pairing but I prefered the H120/R3 combo. The Heresy's were then put in as a left field 'ok just go bigger and see what we get'. My expectation here was the R3 would then get blown away and I'd find myself going bigger and bigger but in fact that never happened. If anything the Heresy had more mid bass bunch but didn't see to go down as low as the R3. What I wasn’t expecting was that the stage seemed to fall back to the speakers, they didn’t disappear like the Kefs. One thing they did do though was play loud at ease and we were a few notches back on the volume control. Given the sensitivity we thought, ok let’s see if the Lyngdorf volume issue is resolved with higher sensitivity speakers however tbh it didn’t make much difference. Yes different amps have different volume gain on their controls but at 50% on the Lyngdorf driving Heresy IV’s it was still at background noise level and you need the dial in the red to get to a proper listening level. This just can’t be right, feedback really welcome here.
I left the demo at that point and plan to go back next week and see what the next rung of amplification will bring and try some other speaker options. I'd like to try an H190 vs Uniti Nova (any other suggestions?) and go up a rung on speakers although I've now found myself quite smitten with the R3's. The next speaker shortlist will prob include the Dynaudio Special 40's and a couple of floorstanders, maybe Focal's offering in this next bracket (£2k-£3k) + another one or two options. The choices are endless and you really could be demo’ing forever and I don’t have that much patience. What’s great is the dealer allows 2 week home trials which I plan to take full advantage off.
So to wrap up the long story, it was a great and surprising experience. What I thought would end with a re-ignited love affair with Naim has left me a little cold temporarily and I'm now dangerously reading reviews of H390's. I really want to get to the bottom of the Lyngdorf volume issue and I'm looking forward to trying a mix of higher priced speakers to see what I can improve on the Kef R3 which won the first round.
Any feedback on the above and volume issue with the Lyngdorf would be greatly appreciated and apologies for the paperback novel here.
Longer version...
So I ventured out to my first hi-fi demo in decades yesterday in search a streaming solution (single box or separates + speakers) after years of good hifi being confined to headphones due to space. Many years ago I had a classic Linn/Naim setup (LP12, 72/HiCap/250, Linn Kan 2’s) which I loved and sorely miss and so I'm really looking forward to getting a new system now I have the space to enjoy it. This is a 7m x 4m room where the speakers will be firing lengthways with seating approx halfway.
Music tastes are varied (doesn't everyone say that?) and the system will also be used for movies.
My initial shortlist/starting after weeks of reading reviews and this forum is made up of the Lyngdorf TDAI 1120, Naim Uniti Atom and Hegel H120 partnered with Kef LS50 Meta/R3's. To repeat, this really is a starting point as I'm going in cold after years in the hifi wilderness. Decisions like bookshelf/stand mounted vs floorstanders, single box vs separates, subwoofers, etc... are all up for debate but I need to start somewhere.
Yesterday I had a demo of the three amps above and tried these all with the LS50 metas, R3's. The dealer also kindly threw on a pair of Sonus Faber Sonetto IIs and a pair of Klipsch Heresy IV's because why not. Yes there's a big diff in price with the latter but my budget is sort of 'flexible' meaning if I don't mind paying more for substantial gains if I can hear it and the Klipsch were sitting next to the demo room so I thought let's give them a try.
My feedback on the above...
First up was the Naim + LS50s. Tried a few well known tracks and they were hugely impressive in the level of scale/weight when you see how small these things are. There was bags of lovely detail coming forth and I thought this is a great start. However after a few tacks I was clearly hearing a hardness in the upper midrange/treble on female vocals, percussion, etc.. which wasn’t very pleasant and quite surprising. Based on reading I have to assume this forwardness was coming from the amp which is reported as exciting, dynamic, etc.. but it wasn’t a sound that I thought I would love to listen to over long period with certain music types. Shock to system though as I really thought I’d find this pairing hard to fault as a packge. Of course there's a shed load of variables here; speaker position, cables, room acoustics, etc... Anyway I moved on and swapped the LS50s for the R3's. Immediately the whole sense of scale went up a notch, the stage seemed to come forward and open up and inevitable personal taste came into play, preferring the the R3's over the LS50. However there remained this same hardness which I’d heard on the LS50’s which was I decided was the ‘naim sound’ which I was finding myself not keen on which was a big surprise. Maybe whipping out an old LP12 with it’s warm balance would have been just the cure.
So ok, getting rid of the Naim for the moment - we put the LS50's back and introduced the Lyngdorf. I had high hopes for the Lyngdorf (if I was being honest my unqualified bias before the demo based on research had the Lyngdorf at the top as I’m a software engineer/tech guy and love the idea of Room Perfect and what it’s trying to do). For the demo we left RP disabled so yes it's at a disadvantage but my view was if it's competitive without it then with RP it should take home the prize. At this point we hit a strange problem which was never resolved through the whole demo which was a lack of volume/power which manifested itself as having the volume control at 95%+ to get what I would consider a good listening level. On the Naim I don’t think I got above 60. I understand the LS50's can be difficult to drive but the difference in output power was just plain baffling. We dove into the settings to check if there was some configured volume limit in place but everything looked good. If this is not a problem then I’d struggle to purchase the 1120 as it would mean running an amp where I’m running at near max volume constantly. At 50% it literally sounded like background noise. Reading the forums this really sounds out of character.
So next up was the Hegel H120. A bluesound Node 2i was broad in to facilitate the streaming duty which I didn't realise would be needed (tidal support on Hegel?) but fair enough. Hands up, the Hegel was my left field choice, given my Naim track record and Lyngdorf with RP I really thought it would come down to these two in this price bracket. How glad I was that I didn’t discount it completely. Immediately there was a sense of scale/weight/size out of the H120 that the Naim wasn’t reproducing. However it wasn’t loose at all, it just seemed to reveal lower frequencies and had a ease of drive and dynamics that I was struggling to pick up in the Naim. Maybe this is a function of output power? However the real kicker was that in addition to these perceived benefits, all of the forward/hardness that I found unpleasant with the Naim was gone and I’d now found a balance that suited my own old ears and tastes. This was starting to really get somewhere.
So off went the LS50's, in came the R3 and everything the R3 did over the LS50 with the Naim was reproduced with the Hegel again with the big increase in scale, weight, bigger stage and to me more detail, space around everything. This is very apparent at higher volumes where I found the LS50 started to struggle to keep composure, the R3 on the other hand seemed much more sensitive and able to play louder with ease which is no surprise given the size. BTW, back on the volume side vs the Lyndorf, the Hegel was pretty much as loud as I would comfortably listen (and probably louder) at 60-65 on the volume so in the same ballpark as the Naim which again underlined my curiosity over potential issues with the Lyngdorf setup.
I then tried a couple of speaker changes, the Sonus Faber's and the Heresy's mentioned above. The SF with the Hegel didn't work to me. Beautiful midrange/vocals but sounded rolled off, lost some excitement/dynamics. Putting the Naim in place here was a much better pairing but I prefered the H120/R3 combo. The Heresy's were then put in as a left field 'ok just go bigger and see what we get'. My expectation here was the R3 would then get blown away and I'd find myself going bigger and bigger but in fact that never happened. If anything the Heresy had more mid bass bunch but didn't see to go down as low as the R3. What I wasn’t expecting was that the stage seemed to fall back to the speakers, they didn’t disappear like the Kefs. One thing they did do though was play loud at ease and we were a few notches back on the volume control. Given the sensitivity we thought, ok let’s see if the Lyngdorf volume issue is resolved with higher sensitivity speakers however tbh it didn’t make much difference. Yes different amps have different volume gain on their controls but at 50% on the Lyngdorf driving Heresy IV’s it was still at background noise level and you need the dial in the red to get to a proper listening level. This just can’t be right, feedback really welcome here.
I left the demo at that point and plan to go back next week and see what the next rung of amplification will bring and try some other speaker options. I'd like to try an H190 vs Uniti Nova (any other suggestions?) and go up a rung on speakers although I've now found myself quite smitten with the R3's. The next speaker shortlist will prob include the Dynaudio Special 40's and a couple of floorstanders, maybe Focal's offering in this next bracket (£2k-£3k) + another one or two options. The choices are endless and you really could be demo’ing forever and I don’t have that much patience. What’s great is the dealer allows 2 week home trials which I plan to take full advantage off.
So to wrap up the long story, it was a great and surprising experience. What I thought would end with a re-ignited love affair with Naim has left me a little cold temporarily and I'm now dangerously reading reviews of H390's. I really want to get to the bottom of the Lyngdorf volume issue and I'm looking forward to trying a mix of higher priced speakers to see what I can improve on the Kef R3 which won the first round.
Any feedback on the above and volume issue with the Lyngdorf would be greatly appreciated and apologies for the paperback novel here.