Demo Feedback - Naim Uniti Atom/Lyngdorf TDAI 1120/Hegel H120

gava

Active Member
The problem is that Amir (ASR) measured it incorrectly. TDA (true digital amplifiers) are not like other Class D amplifiers and when measuring them you must:

Turn off ICC

Use AUX-0025 filter in front of your Audio Precision unit

Measure a single channel at a time

........then you will get the measurments you expect.

Yes, something looked odd about the review. So I am not as confident in his tests of the Lyngdorf as his usual tests. It's well beyond my area of expertise however.

ASR is gaining in influence so it would be good if they reached out to him to sort it out.

For the moment it's left those who would like good technical performance as well as good subjective performance in a quandary, it's put the Lyngdorf equipment on my "caution" list, so I probably wouldn't be looking at it for an amplifier upgrade.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
Yes, something looked odd about the review. So I am not as confident in his tests of the Lyngdorf as his usual tests. It's well beyond my area of expertise however.

ASR is gaining in influence so it would be good if they reached out to him to sort it out.

For the moment it's left those who would like good technical performance as well as good subjective performance in a quandary, it's put the Lyngdorf equipment on my "caution" list, so I probably wouldn't be looking at it for an amplifier upgrade.

Lyngdorf did dispute Amir's findings, but I'm not sure I ever saw any acceptance of incorrect measurement methodology from Amir, which seems par for the course from him. Funnily enough, he did go on to trying listening tests with the 3400 and commented that it was as good as his much more expensive personal reference system. Go figure. :laugh:

As a very happy owner of a 3400, you might not want to dismiss it so easily. Why not get a home loan and try it for yourself? It's what I did and for me, the choice was very simple. I've never been so happy on a day to day basis with my stereo system.
 
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DT79

Well-known Member
Yes, something looked odd about the review. So I am not as confident in his tests of the Lyngdorf as his usual tests. It's well beyond my area of expertise however.

ASR is gaining in influence so it would be good if they reached out to him to sort it out.

For the moment it's left those who would like good technical performance as well as good subjective performance in a quandary, it's put the Lyngdorf equipment on my "caution" list, so I probably wouldn't be looking at it for an amplifier upgrade.
Yeah my problem with ASR is that while objectivity is a laudable goal and I am 100% on board with that, it’s rendered meaningless without context. Objectively you can say that X product measures worse than Y product and establish the performance benchmark by the product that produces the best test results, but without knowing what the threshold of audibility is for the parameter being measured, what does it mean? You can’t ignore the purpose for which the subject of the test is used, otherwise why are you bothering in the first place?

I read a couple of his reviews and he didn’t even listen to the item being tested.

With the TDAI-3400 it seems he misunderstood the nature of what he was testing. On that occasion I believe he did listen to it and said it sounded excellent! If he was really a scientist and an objectivist, that would have led him to reexamine what he was doing and how he was doing it.

All I know is how my 2170 sounds.
 

gava

Active Member
As a very happy owner of a 3400, you might not want to dismiss it so easily.

I don't at all. The subjective reviews from all quarters are that it is fantastic. I have little doubt that I would agree.

All I know is how my 2170 sounds.

I have no doubt that it sounds fantastic to you, and almost certainly would to me too.

At the moment I have a system that sounds brilliant, so far beyond what I ever thought I would own that I am amazed when I listen to it.

However - I don't really trust my abilities to distinguish these things by ear, it is almost certainly the case that most of this equipment is objectively far better than it needs to be for the human auditory system. There is a level that is "good enough" that I passed some time ago. Fortunately for everyone the price of that threshold is still on a downward trend.

I am sure that even in an A/B blind test a competent amplifier like the Behringer A800 (which I own) would be difficult to distinguish from a very high end amplifier. I expect I might possibly, under quick A/B testing with carefully selected material, be able to distinguish. With a few minutes between comparisons I am fairly sure I would not, and nor would the vast majority of audiophiles either - I am fairly sure there is a lot of research to support this, and linked to on many threads on this site.

That doesn't mean though that there is no satisfaction to be gained from owning stuff you know to be the better or the best. It is a purely psychological effect however that the satisfaction is lessened when someone rains on your parade and casts doubt on your choice.

I find that the time I am least happy with an upgrade is immediately after I have purchased it - if it sounds different to what I had before and was very happy with then it sounds wrong. Over time the equipment (or far more likely my brain) gets "broken in" and I am then used to and happy with the new thing.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
I don't at all. The subjective reviews from all quarters are that it is fantastic. I have little doubt that I would agree.



I have no doubt that it sounds fantastic to you, and almost certainly would to me too.

At the moment I have a system that sounds brilliant, so far beyond what I ever thought I would own that I am amazed when I listen to it.

However - I don't really trust my abilities to distinguish these things by ear, it is almost certainly the case that most of this equipment is objectively far better than it needs to be for the human auditory system. There is a level that is "good enough" that I passed some time ago. Fortunately for everyone the price of that threshold is still on a downward trend.

I am sure that even in an A/B blind test a competent amplifier like the Behringer A800 (which I own) would be difficult to distinguish from a very high end amplifier. I expect I might possibly, under quick A/B testing with carefully selected material, be able to distinguish. With a few minutes between comparisons I am fairly sure I would not, and nor would the vast majority of audiophiles either - I am fairly sure there is a lot of research to support this, and linked to on many threads on this site.

That doesn't mean though that there is no satisfaction to be gained from owning stuff you know to be the better or the best. It is a purely psychological effect however that the satisfaction is lessened when someone rains on your parade and casts doubt on your choice.

I find that the time I am least happy with an upgrade is immediately after I have purchased it - if it sounds different to what I had before and was very happy with then it sounds wrong. Over time the equipment (or far more likely my brain) gets "broken in" and I am then used to and happy with the new thing.

If your ears are truly happy with your system on a consistent basis as it stands, then I'd say there is no need to change anything. :)
 

gava

Active Member
If your ears are truly happy with your system on a consistent basis as it stands, then I'd say there is no need to change anything. :)

I don't think that's how this hobby works.
 

davidf

Previously davidf
@pfaz

I’ll be following your update for your upcoming demo thoughts. The Naim Atom is essentially a lifestyle system, and will possess all the compromises that comes with that, so won’t be able to compete with other products that have been designed purely as an amplifier first and foremost.

I’m on Cribbster’s side with his point - room correction is a cherry on top, but if you’ve never heard a product without this correction, how do you know how good it actually is? Way too many people buy products with room correction, or that use correction (amps, subs, speakers etc), and when installing into their system will EQ them straight away - what does that actually tell you about the product itself? I bought a £2,500 processor many years ago and did just that. A year or so down the line, I turned EQ off, and it sounded better! To the point that the processor I followed it with didn’t have any room correction at all. My advice it to always listen to a product ‘as is’ first, in order to assess its true quality or capabilities.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
@pfaz

I’ll be following your update for your upcoming demo thoughts. The Naim Atom is essentially a lifestyle system, and will possess all the compromises that comes with that, so won’t be able to compete with other products that have been designed purely as an amplifier first and foremost.

I’m on Cribbster’s side with his point - room correction is a cherry on top, but if you’ve never heard a product without this correction, how do you know how good it actually is? Way too many people buy products with room correction, or that use correction (amps, subs, speakers etc), and when installing into their system will EQ them straight away - what does that actually tell you about the product itself? I bought a £2,500 processor many years ago and did just that. A year or so down the line, I turned EQ off, and it sounded better! To the point that the processor I followed it with didn’t have any room correction at all. My advice it to always listen to a product ‘as is’ first, in order to assess its true quality or capabilities.

I'd agree with you on this. From my own experience, my Arcam AVR sounds better on music with room correction Off. However, while my Lyngdorf stereo amp sounds very good with no room correction, it sounds better with its room correction On.
 

davidf

Previously davidf
I'd agree with you on this. From my own experience, my Arcam AVR sounds better on music with room correction Off. However, while my Lyngdorf stereo amp sounds very good with no room correction, it sounds better with its room correction On.
But my point is that using correction doesn’t inform anyone of how good an actual product is from a quality point of view. If the room correction was that good, it could be added to any old piece of junk and provide fantastic results.
Room correction can’t alter the hardware of the actual product, but it change what comes out of it and how you perceive it.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
But my point is that using correction doesn’t inform anyone of how good an actual product is from a quality point of view. If the room correction was that good, it could be added to any old piece of junk and provide fantastic results.
Room correction can’t alter the hardware of the actual product, but it change what comes out of it and how you perceive it.

I understood that from your point. Yes, the product must be good without any form of room correction. However, IF the room correction is also decent, it can transform a good/great product into something even better IN THE ROOM. YMMV
 

gibbsy

Moderator
But my point is that using correction doesn’t inform anyone of how good an actual product is from a quality point of view. If the room correction was that good, it could be added to any old piece of junk and provide fantastic results.
Room correction can’t alter the hardware of the actual product, but it change what comes out of it and how you perceive it.
I can see your point certainly. I love how my Rega Elicit sounds. I know the room is more than likely having something of a detrimental effect and Room Perfect (as a standalone device) would more than likely improve the performance of the Rega. It's that old element again, unobtainium. What is obtained is the smile on my face when ever I listen to the Rega.

I'd like to try a Lyngdorf to hear what Room Perfect can do but would I ditch the Rega for one. Highly unlikely because if I want to take the room out of the equation then I'll reach for the Oppo PM1 headphones and hear everything the source has to offer.

Then you can look at soundstage and headphones just cannot compete with a speaker set up in that regard. So we're back to unobtainium again. There's never going to be a product on the market that is going to suit everybody every time. I'll still pick my kit by how good the grin factor is, to hell with the likes of ASR........
 

Hear Here

Active Member
The room and speakers “process the signal”. Well engineered room correction is designed to counteract this within the limits of physics and audibility so that the end result is closer to the “signal”.
No. Please try to follow this and agree - or disagree if you think I'm wrong! I’d be interested to learn where you disagree.

1. The "signal" starts with your source not the speakers - streaming service, CD, vinyl, etc - do you not agree?

1. The signal goes (often via a DAC) to the amp. The best ("straight line") amps simply amplify this signal - nothing else - this keeps it as pure as possible - no tone controls or other processing - do you not agree?

2. This amplified signal reaches the speakers that (if of excellent quality) will accurately convert the electronic signal into movement of air (sound) within your room - How are we doing so far - I hope you agree

3. Then this moving air that carries the sound is subjected to certain reflections and other undesirable features within your room. The upper frequencies are much less affected by room anomalies than lower ones - agreed?

4. If your speakers are very good and if they are well set up and if your room is carefully carpeted and furnished (usually without the need for ugly treatment panels, etc), the sound should still be excellent, but may still have some variation in lower frequency levels - I accept this and no doubt you do to

5. OK, if you've failed at the crucial Stage 4 measures (choice of speaker, setting up speakers, room furnishing). then you may think a little electronic room correction is needed. There are 2 distinct ways of doing this. Either:

A. within the amplifier, in which case this nice pure signal at Stage 2. is subjected to an additional stage of electronic processing before being passed to the speakers. Sadly this requires the entire frequency range to suffer from this extra stage of processing, although it's really only the bass that your room tends to spoil. Or:

B. within the speakers after the crossover. This can only be achieved with active speakers or subs or perhaps if you use an electronic crossover and have 2 or 3 amps for the various drivers (post-XO bi- or tri-amping). If you have this type of setup, then DSP can be applied only to the bass and not to the sensitive upper frequencies that provide the liveliness and sparkle to your music and are much less affected by your room's acoustic peculiarities.

Speakers such as Avantgarde XD, Martin Logan Masterpiece, Dutch & Dutch, etc have this ability to forward the upper frequencies unmolested by DSP processing to the top drivers, but do apply DSP to the bass by processing within their dedicated bass amplifiers.

I currently have Dirac Live but used to have RoomPerfect and MARS DSP systems built into amps and all do adversely affect the top frequencies that contribute to liveliness and excitement factor, even though some of these DSPs only adjust the lower frequencies (Dirac is sub 500 Hz). Unfortunately the “signal” at this stage covers the entire frequency range so all frequencies endure this processing.

I’ve carefully selected my speakers for my own room, taken time and trouble to set then up as best I can and (since buying an empty echo chamber of a new-build) have furnished my room with a nod to the speakers’ requirements. I’ve achieved a degree of audio performance where I notice that the sound is more lively and exciting to listen to without this DSP filter in the amp. It takes money, time and effort but it’s well worth persevering with Stage 4. above to achieve this sound.

In fact, I’ve found that some TYPES of speaker fare poorly in my room, I had to sell my costly electrostatic panels (Martin Logan 13As) last year and start again. They were disappointing because of their placement in my room that I could do nothing about. This poor sound could not be resolved even by their own built-in Anthem DSP and I now fully understand the reason for this problem in my own room and why panels just won’t work here. A costly lesson - always arrange a home demo.

An interesting aside – If DSP was as good as some people believe it to be, what’s the benefit to speaker designers of doing anything more than plonking 3 drivers (with XO) into a cabinet and leave DSP to make them sound fantastic? DSP cannot make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Best to start with silk and ensure the stitching is carefully done to make your purse!
 

[email protected]

Novice Member
I have been using Lyngdorf amps for quite a while, and quite like them.
You have to bear some things in mind:
TDAIs are not usual amplifiers; you can think of them as "power dacs", ie, dacs with an output powerful enough to drive speakers without a conventional amplification stage;
and they are variable gain amplifiers. While in most (but not all) amplifiers, the input signal is reduced to control the volume, in TDAIs the signal is not modified, and the volume is controlled by changing the gain of the amplifier at the power supply.
So, it is imperative that you feed a TDAI with a full scale digital signal. this will allow the full resolution of the signal to be resolved ( and will provide you superb resolution at low volumes). Do NOT clip the digital signal you are sending to the Lyngdorf, but activate the option to control the volume at the amplifier, never at roon or at the tidal app. They must supply the Lyngdorf a full scale digital signal.
The volume scale Lyngdorf uses is logarithmic. So, at the beguinning of the scale, you'll get very low output, and you'll only start getting decent power outputs say, at half to 3/4 of the scale. In older models where the scale was 0-99.9, usual volumes would be around 70s-85s... But you could play at 95 with practically no distortion. With modern TDAIs my usual volumes run from -20s to -8dBs...
Do not use a DAC before and then use the analogue inputs (which are indeed an analogue-to-digital converter... you'll be converting the signal to analogue only to have it reconverted to digital before it gets amplified).
If you feel the digital signal is too rough, try using an algorithm to upsample it, roon will do that nicely, or so will Audirvana. But indeed, RoomPerfect may make the sound quite better.
Another advice: if you are going to use RoomPerfect, place the speakers right against the wall, eventually at the corners. This will give you a better phase response, and RoomPerfect will correct the frequency response. And you'll get a nice phase response and frequency response, not achievable with speakers at the usual locations, away from the back walls and corners.
 

bodas73

Active Member
Hello,

You're lucky to have found a dealer who is so accommodating.

If you can, try Neat SX1 loudspeakers. Plenty of detail but not harsh sounding in the least.

The Atom is a lovely player, but the Unity and Nova are better.
Better still if budget allows, ND 5 XS 2 (streamer) with Nait XS 3.
I have the ND 5 XS 2 (streamer) with Nait XS 3 and can testify to how good it makes standard spotify and low rip MP3 sound, streaming old house music sets on Soundcloud at low bitrate also is impressive. no screen on the streamer might put a few of but the app works well on an old smartphone
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I’d highly recommend finding an experienced Lyngdorf dealer and having them to the set up for you.

If its done correctly RoomPerfect will categorically improve the sound in any room and in no way will compromise any aspects of your speakers.

If you find the sound lack lustre it will be because RoomPerfect hasn’t been performed correctly. I have had several customers complain of performance, only to find out after the product has been returned that they have positioned the mic incorrectly.

I’ve performed 100’s of calibrations in very diverse rooms on stereos from £3k to £300k and never had anything but superb results.

If you cannot get an experienced dealer to do the set up for you, please keep a dialogue going to be certain you are performing the set up correctly. Done correctly it always improves sound quality.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
AudioScienceReview – Great Sound – Bad Measurments?

This TDAi3400 will deliver measurably much better sound than any other amplifier, largely because of RoomPerfect. The errors made by the acoustics of your listening room dwarf the subtle difference between many components.

A system with more even frequency response will translate to a better sounding system. Turn RoomPerfect on and off and sound quality in the room will measure much better and more importantly, anyone will hear a very obvious difference. Because of this, I encourage people to look at measurements, however this needs to be done with care.

Amir at AudioScienceReview tested the 3400 twice and on both occasions said great things about how it sounds:

“The transformation (with RoomPerfect) is incredible. As soon as I turned on the Focus mode, the (somewhat) boomy bass disappeared, resolution in bass became much higher (allowing individual tones to be distinguished). Soundstage opened up, with sound losing its congested character. You want to sit there and re-listen to your entire library again.

If you have not heard a proper room equalization system, I don't know that you can ever understand the words above. Suffice it to say, nothing, nothing you can do to your system to uplift its performance as much as room equalization can.


Without correction, every system out there regardless of price of components, suffers from significant audible colorations and loss of detail and focus. No, you can't do the same with room treatment. Even the best treated room requires equalization. Over treating the room to get rid of the modes will create a dull/dead which you want to avoid.

The all-one-one aspect of the Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 showed its value in how it obsolete nearly $70,000 in gear in my room. Integration with Roon player (i.e. streaming) does it for me. Get yourself a pair of excellent speakers and pair it with the Lyngdorf and "you are done." Your tiny system will outperform tons of other systems without equalization.”


While Amir loved the sound of the amp, his measured results were poor, so clearly something is amiss. Either his measurements are incorrect or good measurements do not translate to good sound which makes a mockery of doing them.

The problem is that he measured the amp incorrectly. TDA (true digital amplifiers) are not like other Class D amplifiers and when measuring them you must:

Turn off ICC

Use AUX-0025 filter in front of your Audio Precision unit

Measure a single channel at a time

........then you will get the measurements you expect.

He also said RoomPerfect didnt do anything other good correction systems do, which is completely wrong. I think the aims of his site are great, but he should get his facts checked with manufacturers before publishing them.
 

Hear Here

Active Member
If its done correctly RoomPerfect will categorically improve the sound in any room and in no way will compromise any aspects of your speakers.
Ron. This is not my experience and I've explained above precisely why any room correction system that requires an additional layer of signal processing will compromise certain aspects of the sound.

I totally agree that DSPs will iron out frequency response and this will change (usually for the better) the sound to a certain degree. If the perceived improvement is "spectacular" the conclusion must be that the speakers or room furnishings etc have not been carefully chosen or set up. If it's minimal, then pat yourself on the back - you've done a good job with the most important things and have little need for DSP.

My argument against all DSPs that require the ENTIRE SIGNAL to endure an extra layer of processing (ie those built into full-range amps such as my own NAD and Lyngdorf amps) is that this additional processing takes away a little of the music’s lifelikeness and sparkle. These sought-after features are related primarily to the upper frequencies, whereas room acoustic anomalies mainly upset lower frequencies as they bounce around the room.

This slight loss of sparkle can be demonstrated with my Dirac system because it claims ONLY to adjust frequencies below 500 Hz. Therefore it should pass through the higher frequencies without any adjustment to their level. However, the ENTIRE SIGNAL from 20 Hz to 20K Hz is subjected to this extra layer of processing. It's this extra processing that does some damage to the lifelikeness and sparkle you experience when an excellent source is processed by a "straight line with gain" amplifier and first class speakers. Anything and everything that adds to this ideal signal path (tone controls, DSP, etc) will have a detrimental effect on the sound you hear and enjoy and my system proves the point. Dirac or RP will flatten the frequency response at the cost of musical excitement although many people will find the pros of DSP outweigh the cons, but please don’t claim that there are no cons.

Now, you may claim that Lyngdorf with its RoomPerfect is the best thing since sliced bread (you sell them I believe) so I'd ask you simply to address the case I've made against the use of DSP in principle, unless the signal is split into bass and higher frequencies first and then only the bass is subjected to DSP. This requires extra amps of course and an active crossover. Speakers such as Dutch & Dutch and Avantgarde XD models operate in this way so the higher frequencies that provide the sparkle to music are not subjected to this extra layer of processing. Peter
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I have never done a calibration that compromised sound quality and can only remember one where RoomPerfect didn’t improve sound quality.

I do sell Lyngdorf products so you should be sceptical, however there are many other dealers who have used it in dozens of rooms and had the same experience.

Your room is unusual as your speakers are not placed against a wall.

RoomPerfect would still work in this space if the mic was placed correctly however you placed it behind the speakers which is why it gave lousy results.

You cannot set up a product incorrectly and then criticize its performance.
 

Tom @ Cinehome

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
In the numerous home trials the have done of 1120's and 3400's, we have never had a situation where the addition of a Lyngdorf TDAi didn't hugely improve the sound when carefully set up and calibrated. We have a 100% conversation rate on home trails / purchases on fifteen home trials in just under six months.

Having the support of a dealer, either in person or at the end of the 'phone, who know's that they're doing AND has in-field experience of actually installing these units, including using the units in their home, is a biggie.

Best, Tom
 

pfaz

Standard Member
OP here. This is a v.interesting conversation. I'm still keen to here the Lyngdorf at it's best but the above couple of posts show there is much bigger onus on the demo setup/dealer to show this product at it's best. This isn't just time consuming, it also requires expertise and knowledge of the product. For instance the point about calibrating with speakers against the wall, are all dealers aware of this? Do all Lyngdorf dealers (and their salespeople) get the appropriate training in setting up the Lyngdorf products when they take on the brand? Compared to another manufacturer without any of these complexities I can imagine many cases (mine in point) where it's easy for the Lyngdorf to come off worse against the competition.

However to counter this, isn't RP a value add? Shouldn't the product be able to shine and hold it's own against any competing product before RP is brought in?

With regards to my initial demo, I'm now convinced after reading way too many posts on this forum that there is an input sensitivity setting that needed tweaking for the Roon/Tidal input which would have resolved the low volume output issue. Rather than go back to dealership to play further I want to get it home on a trial as I think hearing this product at it's best is just too impractical for many dealers to do justice to it.
 

Steve413

Distinguished Member
The role of the dealer is to assist in any way possible for their clients, having owned Lyngdorf for over 15 years and carried out countless Roomperfect calibrations on my own system and others, i have only encountered a couple of times where i was not happy with the RP result, so i simply started again (as for a stereo it only takes 15 minutes or so) and whilst RP might be seen as an added value to the amplifier it is also one of the Core Technologies of the brand and when set up and calibrated properly will give brilliant results in my experience.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Lyngdorf are an R&D company and almost all their resources go into product design rather than explaining their benefits or how to use them. This is why finding an experienced dealer is so important.

Adding a room correction device to a system adds A/D and D/A conversion which compromises sound quality. This is why Lyngdorf stopped making this type of device, (the RP1), because their integrated amplifiers sounded better.

The TDA3400 works differently to all other amplifiers. The technology, Equibit, is patented. It takes the digital PCM signal and directly converts it to the analogue PWM signal required to drive speakers.

No preamplifier is used and so the noise and reduction in S/N ratio that all pre amps create is removed.

Volume adjustment is done by varying the voltage.

As the signal remains in the digital domain throughout the amp, room correction, Voicings, crossovers etc. can be added without any additional A/D and D/A conversion.

If you are using a digital source or the internal streamer the TDA presents a shorter, simpler signal path than any other amplifier and will sound cleaner and clearer as a result. This is why their one box amplifiers will sound better than a rack of the most expensive electronics.

If it doesn’t, its faulty or there is something wrong with its set up.
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
OP here. This is a v.interesting conversation. I'm still keen to here the Lyngdorf at it's best but the above couple of posts show there is much bigger onus on the demo setup/dealer to show this product at it's best. This isn't just time consuming, it also requires expertise and knowledge of the product. For instance the point about calibrating with speakers against the wall, are all dealers aware of this? Do all Lyngdorf dealers (and their salespeople) get the appropriate training in setting up the Lyngdorf products when they take on the brand? Compared to another manufacturer without any of these complexities I can imagine many cases (mine in point) where it's easy for the Lyngdorf to come off worse against the competition.

However to counter this, isn't RP a value add? Shouldn't the product be able to shine and hold it's own against any competing product before RP is brought in?

With regards to my initial demo, I'm now convinced after reading way too many posts on this forum that there is an input sensitivity setting that needed tweaking for the Roon/Tidal input which would have resolved the low volume output issue. Rather than go back to dealership to play further I want to get it home on a trial as I think hearing this product at it's best is just too impractical for many dealers to do justice to it.

Any Lyngdorf dealer that doesn't understand hasn't bothered to open the manual - you are reading too much into how complex this might be - it isn't. If you can follow about half a dozen simple requirements to achieve a correct measurement then that's it, if you cannot follow half a dozen simple requirements then don't buy it.

No RP is not a value add, it is a fundamental feature and the key reason they are bought. The amp is a good transparent amp that can hold it's own against many others, however there is a price premium for RP so you would not buy a Lyngdorf if you did not want RP as there are many amps at a lower price that do not have RC systems that can match it. RP is the game changer in that it is very easy to setup and the results are superb, and most importantly a Lyngdorf amp with RP can outperform many more 'expensive' amps.
 

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