Demo Feedback - Naim Uniti Atom/Lyngdorf TDAI 1120/Hegel H120

Tom @ Cinehome

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
A home demo of the TDAI-1120 running RoomPerfect is the the way to go here. Hearing it in a showroom, with no RP running and multiple pairs of loudspeakers isn't really going to give any meaningful insight into the qualities of this unit and the huge advantages of using RoomPerfect.

Best, Tom
 

Cribbster

Active Member
A home demo of the TDAI-1120 running RoomPerfect is the the way to go here. Hearing it in a showroom, with no RP running and multiple pairs of loudspeakers isn't really going to give any meaningful insight into the qualities of this unit and the huge advantages of using RoomPerfect.

Best, Tom
Interesting. That bothers me in a way. Yes, I get that a home demo with RoomPerfect will give you THE best experience and show off the amp to its full extent, but I would still expect to get a decent representation of the amp comparable to others in a standard demo room. Yes, we all know it is not a perfect environment but it still allows us to get a sense of what it is like and be able to compare it with others. The RP effect should be the cherry (albeit an ample one) on the top. If I'm not really liking it or getting a good feel for it in a demo room then I am unlikely to be swayed by a home demo with RP
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
The problem with hifi demo rooms is they are always being changed around and if you change anything major in a room then RP needs to be rerun. You are relying on the dealer to do that every time and it takes around 20 minutes to run.

Home demo is the answer, then you will know if RP is worth it in your room with your speakers.
 

Tom @ Cinehome

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Interesting. That bothers me in a way. Yes, I get that a home demo with RoomPerfect will give you THE best experience and show off the amp to its full extent, but I would still expect to get a decent representation of the amp comparable to others in a standard demo room. Yes, we all know it is not a perfect environment but it still allows us to get a sense of what it is like and be able to compare it with others. The RP effect should be the cherry (albeit an ample one) on the top. If I'm not really liking it or getting a good feel for it in a demo room then I am unlikely to be swayed by a home demo with RP

As I understand it from your post, RoomPerfect wasn't running on the TDAI-1120 during the demo you had which means a key feature of the amplifier wasn't being used. None of the other amplifiers have a room correction system on board and to me that would make the necessity to deploy it and demonstrate the importance of Room Correction done properly even more invaluable.

My point about multiple pairs of loudspeakers was the for the 1120 to deliver to it's full potential a RP calibration needs to be done for each of these loudspeakers during a demo.

Best, Tom
 

DT79

Well-known Member
Interesting. That bothers me in a way. Yes, I get that a home demo with RoomPerfect will give you THE best experience and show off the amp to its full extent, but I would still expect to get a decent representation of the amp comparable to others in a standard demo room. Yes, we all know it is not a perfect environment but it still allows us to get a sense of what it is like and be able to compare it with others. The RP effect should be the cherry (albeit an ample one) on the top. If I'm not really liking it or getting a good feel for it in a demo room then I am unlikely to be swayed by a home demo with RP
It absolutely will stand comparison with other amps when used without RP*, and in my experience will come across as completely neutral, highly transparent and with an impressive ability for the sound to stay exactly the same as volume increases.

However the point is that RP is a massive advantage that this amp has over other amps and frankly room issues are in all likelihood far more problematic than any deficiencies in most people’s previous amplificationin the first place. Making the decision on buying a Lyngdorf without judging it with RP engaged is just obtuse.

*the OP’s specific issue notwithstanding, which was likely some kind of Roon settings issue.
 

Cribbster

Active Member
As I understand it from your post, RoomPerfect wasn't running on the TDAI-1120 during the demo you had which means a key feature of the amplifier wasn't being used. None of the other amplifiers have a room correction system on board and to me that would make the necessity to deploy it and demonstrate the importance of Room Correction done properly even more invaluable.

My point about multiple pairs of loudspeakers was the for the 1120 to deliver to it's full potential a RP calibration needs to be done for each of these loudspeakers during a demo.

Best, Tom
It wasn't my demo. :) I've just jumped into the thread with an observation. You and Larkone seem to be missing my point. I don't doubt that RP will help give the very best of the amp - why have it if it doesn't add anything. But, RP is not going to transform the basics of what the amp does or alter its inherent characteristics. And if you are wanting to do a side by side comparison of amps then a demo room is realistically the only place most of us are ever going to be able to do that. The implications of what you are saying is that the Lyngdorf is a bit rubbish until it has been set up properly with RP - which I would hope is not the case. For an amp costing that much I would expect it to still sound pretty decent without RP. Personally, I don't know if I will ever have the budget for one of these amps. Although recently it has become a brand I would love to experience if I ever was in that position.
 

Tom @ Cinehome

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
It wasn't my demo. :) I've just jumped into the thread with an observation. You and Larkone seem to be missing my point. I don't doubt that RP will help give the very best of the amp - why have it if it doesn't add anything. But, RP is not going to transform the basics of what the amp does or alter its inherent characteristics. And if you are wanting to do a side by side comparison of amps then a demo room is realistically the only place most of us are ever going to be able to do that. The implications of what you are saying is that the Lyngdorf is a bit rubbish until it has been set up properly with RP - which I would hope is not the case. For an amp costing that much I would expect it to still sound pretty decent without RP. Personally, I don't know if I will ever have the budget for one of these amps. Although recently it has become a brand I would love to experience if I ever was in that position.

The TDAI-1120 is a fantastic amplifier with and without RoomPerfect.

As @DT79 says, it is neutral, highly transparent and delivers power effortlessly across all volumes. My point is that RP is such an valuable feature of the amplifier that not deploying just doesn't make any sense.

I would highly recommend the OP getting one on home demo and spending some time with it. Our track record on home trials converting to sales backs this up. Before becoming dealers, we trialled a TDAI-3400 at home, as any other client could do, with some 802D3's. Outcome was we became Lyngdorf dealers.

Best, Tom
 

pfaz

Standard Member
Thanks for all the comments. With regards to some of the questions raised on Roon setup, I've never used Roon before but basically we swapped amps and changed the Roon output device. This leads to me to guess that there was something in the lyngdorf setup via the web i/f that affected the output volume so there and then I just decided that we weren't hearing the product performing correctly so 'postponed' any judgement. I won't make any final decision until I get the contenders home (once I get through an ever growing shortlist) which I would expect to include the 1120 (or even a 3400 by then!).

With regards to RP vs non RP demos, this is clearly a contentious issue amongst those of you much better qualified than me. My view was that in the comfort of a home demo of course you would take the time to setup RP but if you are at a dealers and trying a mix of speakers as I was, I would expect to run RP everytime you change speaker would be inpractical or is it possible to store multiple RP settings and recall them as you swap product? I think if I was turning up with speaker decision already made and just comparing amps then for sure, you would setup RP once and compare all the contenders.

On this topic though, what I've not heard is someone say the 1120 sound bad without RP and with it it beats all comers at the price. That was part of my logic and I think some of the other poster's that non RP demos are still worthwhile to get a measure of the 1120 with the added bonus that you know you've got more to come. I'll keep you posted as I've asked the dealer to look into the issue and hopefully we'll have uncovered the problem by the time I go back.
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
The implications of what you are saying is that the Lyngdorf is a bit rubbish until it has been set up properly with RP - which I would hope is not the case.
To put that in context it would be the same as saying a Ferrari's performance is a bit rubbish whilst driving through Central London's 20 and 30 limits
 

DT79

Well-known Member
To put that in context it would be the same as saying a Ferrari's performance is a bit rubbish whilst driving through Central London's 20 and 30 limits

I think that's being a little disingenuous to what I was saying.

The analogy I was going to use but couldn't be bothered to type, but now I will is... imagine you want a new car. You have 'X' budget and you shortlist a mercedes e class, an audi a6 and a range rover. You have a nice place in the country but your access is down a rutted farm track. However in the interests of fairness to all the vehicles under test, you only test drive them on smooth tarmac'd roads before making your decision. I think that's a pretty fair analogy.
 

pfaz

Standard Member
The analogy I was going to use but couldn't be bothered to type, but now I will is... imagine you want a new car. You have 'X' budget and you shortlist a mercedes e class, an audi a6 and a range rover. You have a nice place in the country but your access is down a rutted farm track. However in the interests of fairness to all the vehicles under test, you only test drive them on smooth tarmac'd roads before making your decision. I think that's a pretty fair analogy.
lol. for every situation there's always a car analogy that can be applied!

Those cars are designed for different purposes and indeed that comparison above would be unfair. When auditioning hi-fi we're trying to purchase a product to do the job we define. To use your analogy, I don't want a vehicle that doesn't perform well on smooth tarmac and if if the vehicle is poor in this situation and needs additional aids to perform this function I'd argue the design wasn't targetting my use case.

Need to be careful here or we'll have to move this conversation to pistonheads.
 

Cribbster

Active Member
The analogy I was going to use but couldn't be bothered to type, but now I will is... imagine you want a new car. You have 'X' budget and you shortlist a mercedes e class, an audi a6 and a range rover. You have a nice place in the country but your access is down a rutted farm track. However in the interests of fairness to all the vehicles under test, you only test drive them on smooth tarmac'd roads before making your decision. I think that's a pretty fair analogy.
I fear we are taking this thread in a whole different direction from the original intent. And my observations being taken a lot more seriously and a lot further than intended. :) The OP summed it up well enough in the last post. The demo was part of a discovery and elimination process. It's an early part of the process and not the final, decision making point. If you have a number of amps to check out with potentially a few speaker options, do you really have time (or more importantly, does the dealer have the time) to spend 20-30 minutes faffing with room correction every time you make a change?

If I'm honest, I can sort of see what you are saying with your analogy but it doesn't really work for me. Or work for this situation. But that might just be me....
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
does the dealer have the time) to spend 20-30 minutes faffing with room correction every time you make a change?
No they don't and that is why we and the dealers on here are recommending a home trial to hear the amp perform at its full potential (which includes RP).
 

DT79

Well-known Member
OK leaving the car-based analogies in the rear view mirror (sorry :laugh:), all i was trying to say is that unless you hear the 1120 with RP properly calibrated (preferably in your own room) before making a final decision, then you’ve not really judged it properly.
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
OK leaving the car-based analogies in the rear view mirror (sorry :laugh:), all i was trying to say is that unless you hear the 1120 with RP properly calibrated (preferably in your own room) before making a final decision, then you’ve not really judged it properly.
Well done, it just needed someone to put the brakes on the topic and park it. :lesson:
 

Hear Here

Active Member
The analogy I was going to use but couldn't be bothered to type, but now I will is... imagine you want a new car. You have 'X' budget and you shortlist a mercedes e class, an audi a6 and a range rover. You have a nice place in the country but your access is down a rutted farm track. However in the interests of fairness to all the vehicles under test, you only test drive them on smooth tarmac'd roads before making your decision. I think that's a pretty fair analogy.
Interesting thought but my answer to the problem of the rough drive is to first get the drive fixed - then you can enjoy a much better ride in either the Merc or the Audi.

DSP room correction should be a last resort (as would be buying a 4x4 because you haven't fixed your drive) and you are best without it in most cases as the additional signal processing has a detrimental effect on the sound - even if it flattens the one area it’s good at - flattening the frequency response.

I've used RoomPerfect (in TDAI-3400) and Dirac Live (in NAD M33) and with careful setting up of my speakers and care with room furnishings, the sound has more life and excitement factor without the filter than with it. There are circumsatances where DSP is good for the sound, but not when it's built into a full range amplifier such as Lyngdorf or NAD.
 

Paul7777x

Member
Interesting thought but my answer to the problem of the rough drive is to first get the drive fixed - then you can enjoy a much better ride in either the Merc or the Audi.

DSP room correction should be a last resort (as would be buying a 4x4 because you haven't fixed your drive) and you are best without it in most cases as the additional signal processing has a detrimental effect on the sound - even if it flattens the one area it’s good at - flattening the frequency response.

I've used RoomPerfect (in TDAI-3400) and Dirac Live (in NAD M33) and with careful setting up of my speakers and care with room furnishings, the sound has more life and excitement factor without the filter than with it. There are circumsatances where DSP is good for the sound, but not when it's built into a full range amplifier such as Lyngdorf or NAD.

B41B9480-39AE-47E6-83E1-EE7F4D19D268.jpeg
 

[email protected]

Active Member
If you think harshness is because of differences in frequency response, either intrinsic to the amp or due to interaction with the speakers, room correction should correct it.
 

DT79

Well-known Member
Interesting thought but my answer to the problem of the rough drive is to first get the drive fixed - then you can enjoy a much better ride in either the Merc or the Audi.
OK, kind of left myself open to that one! I think we’ve been over this though, and physically fixing acoustic room issues is easier said than done if you care about what the room looks like afterwards and/or have to compromise on layout.
 

Hear Here

Active Member
OK, kind of left myself open to that one! I think we’ve been over this though, and physically fixing acoustic room issues is easier said than done if you care about what the room looks like afterwards and/or have to compromise on layout.
It bewilders / amuses me that there are people here who never want to address the point I make that DSP (when included in a full-range amp) inevitably subjects the signal to additional processing compared with direct (no filter). If you agree that DSP is an additional process, how can you claim (as you do by implication) that the signal is not adversely affected? ALL processing degrades the signal to some small degree, hence the absence of tone controls, equalisers, etc in high end amps. These strive to achieve the ultimate goal of being "a straight line with gain".

I’ve always accepted that the frequency response is ironed out by DSP, but you don't seem to want to consider the adverse side effects. I've also accepted that DSP may well improve the sound of mediocre quality speakers, poorly set up speakers and poorly furnished rooms, but if one buys high end speakers, get them set up as best they can be and have some consideration of your furnishings, carpets, etc (obviously not making a dog's dinner of your living room as you might in a dedicated music room), then you should have little need for DSP. A sign that you haven't bothered with these much more basic and essential requirements for good sound is if you find “the improvement with DSP is huge". The bigger the perceived improvement with DSP engaged, the poorer is your system's setup

How is it that my present DSP, that adjusts solely the sub 500 Hz frequencies, clearly takes away a little of the life and sparkle of the music that is (as we all know) more associated with higher frequencies than bass? Simple answer – the additional signal processing that the entire frequency range is subjected to. Please address these points rather than ignoring or rubbishing them. Thanks.
 

craigd

Well-known Member
The room and speakers “process the signal”. Well engineered room correction is designed to counteract this within the limits of physics and audibility so that the end result is closer to the “signal”.

Imagine if you had a TV screen but it was underwater. If the TV could produce the most excellent picture, true to the input signal, it would look god awful. If you corrected for the environment by processing the source to reduce the effect of the water has on the picture - to make it look more like it wasn’t underwater - you would have a more accurate and enjoyable viewing experience.

As soon as you put speakers in a room they are effectively “underwater”.
 

gava

Active Member
It absolutely will stand comparison with other amps when used without RP*, and in my experience will come across as completely neutral, highly transparent and with an impressive ability for the sound to stay exactly the same as volume increases.

Erm, maybe.

The ASR review of the 3400 showed a below-average DAC connected to an amplifier section, which by modern standards, has absolutely shockingly bad noise and distortion. It is very powerful however which makes up for a lot. (The 1120 though is not particularly powerful. )

That poor SINAD performance however is compensated for superbly by the best DSP software on the market, and what we care about is the end result.

But even in its "naked" state without RP the human auditory processing system is not up to the job of distinguishing these things very well; the transparency you mention is of course what amplifiers should be - they shouldn't actually sound like anything, they should just amplify the source accurately.

So if those tests are correct, and I am more inclined to believe them than not...

Without RP you'd be a lot better off using a Crown or Behringer amp, or either of the others the OP auditioned.


I read a rumour, can't remember where, that Lyngdorf are about to replace their 20-year old internals with Purifi boards (they are both Danish companies) which will take them from sounding good but measuring shockingly badly to state-of-the-art performance, add RP on top of that and the next gen of Lyngdorf will doubtless be untouchable.

I wonder whether they will simply and quietly upgrade the internals or produce a new line?
 
Last edited:

Tom @ Cinehome

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Erm, maybe.

The ASR review of the 3400 showed a below-average DAC connected to an amplifier section, which by modern standards, has absolutely shockingly bad noise and distortion. It is very powerful however which makes up for a lot. (The 1120 though is not particularly powerful. )

That poor SINAD performance however is compensated for superbly by the best DSP software on the market, and what we care about is the end result.

But even in its "naked" state without RP the human auditory processing system is not up to the job of distinguishing these things very well; the transparency you mention is of course what amplifiers should be - they shouldn't actually sound like anything, they should just amplify the source accurately.

So if those tests are correct, and I am more inclined to believe them than not...

Without RP you'd be a lot better off using a Crown or Behringer amp, or either of the others the OP auditioned.


I read a rumour, can't remember where, that Lyngdorf are about to replace their 20-year old internals with Purifi boards (they are both Danish companies) which will take them from sounding good but measuring shockingly bad to state-of-the-art performance, add RP on top of that and the next gen of Lyngdorf will doubtless be untouchable.

I wonder whether they will simply and quietly upgrade the internals or produce a new line?

The problem is that Amir (ASR) measured it incorrectly. TDA (true digital amplifiers) are not like other Class D amplifiers and when measuring them you must:

Turn off ICC

Use AUX-0025 filter in front of your Audio Precision unit

Measure a single channel at a time

........then you will get the measurments you expect.
 

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