1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Definition of accurate speakers.

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by zcaps57, Feb 18, 2003.

  1. zcaps57

    zcaps57
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi, folks.

    Last night, I sort of wondered about the definition of accurate loudspeakers. Because my recent experience with Signature and Nautilus range of speakers shows that even they're the same brand - B&W, their sonic characteristics are quite different from each other. And this makes me wonder which accurate speakers really are...

    I believe 'accurate' speakers should not colour sound. They should produce what is recorded in source materials without any brand-specific tastes/colour. Thus they should be very revealing.

    Folks, in your opinion.. what are accurate speakers. Are B&W Nautilus or Signature accurate speakers ?
    There are many brands of loudspakers.
    Dynaudio, Thiel, Wilson Audio, M&K, KEF, Mission, Paradigm, NHT, Sonus Faber....etc...etc..

    Let's hear your opinions, folks! :)
     
  2. lovegroova

    lovegroova
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,523
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    Herts
    Ratings:
    +294
    The answer is that no speakers are accurate i.e. a completely flat frequency response curvefrom 0hz to infinity Hz or even from 20Hz to 20kHz.

    If you like the way a certain speaker represents music, then buy it and enjoy it.

    A good example of this philosophy is with some Naim gear, it measures 'badly' in the lab but most people love the way it sounds.
     
  3. SpiderManPants

    SpiderManPants
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Interesting that you should mention B&W's, as I really like the sound these speakers produce. However, as far as accuracy is concerned I'm not sure they paint a true picture.

    I had a pair of the original 601's then upgraded to the 602's and then moved to the 601 S3's. Out of all of them, I think the 601 Series 3 produced the best sound, and I auditioned a lot of speakers when purchasing them, as I was determined to have a change of manufacturer, but nothing else seemed to come close for the money.

    However, a few days ago I treated myself to a set of M&K S85's, and now I realise just how neutral a speaker can be. These things just disappear and leave in their place the sound of whatever the mic recorded. Gone is the over-emphasised bass, and in it's place is the most realistic sound I've ever heard.

    I'm not saying that B&W speakers are bad, far from it. I can only speak from my own experience and it's not really fair to compare a pair of £250 B&W's with a pair of £800 M&K's
     
  4. Jase

    Jase
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2001
    Messages:
    9,341
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    South Coast
    Ratings:
    +834
    M&K 150THX.:smashin:
     
  5. lovegroova

    lovegroova
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,523
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    Herts
    Ratings:
    +294
    That is an interesting statement, but can I ask how you know what the mic recorded, or even what type of mic was used, as that has also has an effect on the overall sound?
     
  6. SpiderManPants

    SpiderManPants
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I am merely trying to emphasise that the sound these speakers produce is realistic. i.e. The sound doesn't sound like it's coming from a speaker, rather from the object or person producing the sound. And I don't recall stating I knew what type of mic was used! Where did that come from?
     
  7. lovegroova

    lovegroova
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,523
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    Herts
    Ratings:
    +294
    That's cool, I understand now. I only mentioned the mic because you said they only leave what the mic recorded, which neither you nor I cannot possibly know sounded like. therefore it is impossible for anyone to say that the speakers reporoduce exactly what the mic recorded. The only person able to do that would be the recording engineer.
     
  8. juboy

    juboy
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    lovegroova makes a very fine point. Unless you were at the recording/mastering sessions and heard the sound through the studio kit and monitors, you have no real idea of what it is supposed to sound like.

    I've heard that an awful lot of studio engineers actually master stuff then record it to cassette tape and play it back in their cars on their way home... when it sounds good to them there, they feel they've captured the best sound that most people will end up hearing.

    Kind of makes me smile that some people will buy those CDs and sit back and listen to it through £10ks worth of CD, amps and speaker and claim how close it sounds to the original recording...
     
  9. Spligsey

    Spligsey
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2003
    Messages:
    2,065
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +137
    Not forgetting that in the studio there maybe multiple pairs of monitors eg....nearfield, midfield, main................and they are not always from the same manufacturer.............

    The M&K 2510P's seem to be well regarded by numerous sound engineers.......They have a terrific midrange...


    Adzman
     
  10. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    And someone in London :hiya:
     
  11. Spligsey

    Spligsey
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2003
    Messages:
    2,065
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +137
    Show off!


    Adzman
     
  12. zcaps57

    zcaps57
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hmm... I've never listened to M&K speakers. But from what I've read on various forums, it seems that majority of people think M&Ks are not musical. Is this not the case ?

    I better listen to some of M&K stuff. :)
     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    13,980
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,781
    I'd suggest an accurate speaker is one which adds the least distortion to the input signal it is given.

    Gordon
     
  14. NicolasB

    NicolasB
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2002
    Messages:
    5,804
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Emily's Shop
    Ratings:
    +520
    M&K's consumer line are, in my opinion, overpriced for what they. Their UK distributor for the consumer line, Gecko, imposes an absolutely swingeing mark-up over the US price.

    However, if you can find a dealer who will sell you some of M&K's "professional" speakers (Uncle Eric, for example) these are much better value. For example, the guide price for the top-of-the-line professional monitor, the 2510P, is about £1400 per speaker, while the consumer equivalent, the S150P, is £2195 per speaker.

    M&K's speakers are (as far as I know) all either dedicated satellites or subwoofers, none of them are full range, but that's by no means a bad thing. Obviously you need a good sub to go with the satellites, but I'm sure Eric will happily sell you a Velodyne HGS-18 as well.

    I've listened to some M&K 2510P active speakers coutesy of Uncle Eric, and also to the consumer equivalent over at Rayleigh Hifi. The 2510Ps are extremely impressive at the price. Tremendously dynamic.

    I could go on, but I've previously been roasted alive on this forum in connection with M&K speakers and I don't think I can handle the pressure....
     
  15. Spligsey

    Spligsey
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2003
    Messages:
    2,065
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +137
    Nicolas.

    You shouldn't have offered Uncle Eric £150.00 for his MPS 2510P's!!!!!!!!!!

    :D :D :D

    Adam.
     
  16. ReTrO

    ReTrO
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2000
    Messages:
    3,498
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    High Wycombe, Bucks, UK
    Ratings:
    +59
    An accurate speaker is one that reproduces the sound as it should sound.:clap:
     
  17. zcaps57

    zcaps57
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Gordon, Richard
    that's a perfect definition.

    Nicolas,
    2510P is an active speakers which includes amplifier, right ? 1,400 quid including amplification looks like a bargain(attractive), indeed!

    As far as I remember, you also have experience with B&W Nautilus range as well. (am I correct?) In your opinion, how would you compare them ? (of course I'm not asking which is better. But their difference in sonic characteristics/signatures..etc)
     
  18. sweetmate

    sweetmate
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    694
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +46
    Not really, I think the point is, good speakers should make the recorded sound sound exactly like what it was recording. You dont have to physically be at the recording to know what that sound should sound like.

    i.e. If the sound of someones voice or an acoustic guitar for example is well recorded and mastered then playing that sound back on good quality equipment will provide a more realistic representation of that sound than playing it back on lower quality equipment. (Do I win an award for using the word "sound" 6 times in one post?!)

    P.S. Obviously this is taking for granted that the audio engineer isnt trying to make what he is recording sound like something else.
     
  19. Timmy B

    Timmy B
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Kefs monitor series are very accurate and produce a great untainted sound. I have no idea why kefs monitor series is so unpopular.

    http://www.kef.com/Monintr.htm :smashin:
     
  20. ReTrO

    ReTrO
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2000
    Messages:
    3,498
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    High Wycombe, Bucks, UK
    Ratings:
    +59
    And if he/she is then that is how it should sound.

    This making me lean toward getting a set of active studio type speakers next, maybe Dynaudio or Mackie. If I can afford it though I'll giong for a set of Focal JM Labs SM11 Utopia.

    http://www.focal.tm.fr/gb/pro/sm/index.htm
     
  21. zcaps57

    zcaps57
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Richard,

    SM11 Utopia looks quite interesting. But I don't see any advantage of digital inputs on them. In the end, the signal needs to be in analog form, don't they.
    Anyway, what's the retail price for one of those ?
     
  22. juboy

    juboy
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    My DJ and music producer friends will only use active monitors (Genelec and the like) as they then hear exactly what other producers were/are hearing in their studios as the music is all digital and they all use the same producing software tools.

    More than a few dance music fans out there would be very surprised at the original 'quality' of the sounds they listen to on sometimes very expensive domestic hi fi kit...
     
  23. ReTrO

    ReTrO
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2000
    Messages:
    3,498
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    High Wycombe, Bucks, UK
    Ratings:
    +59
    Around £11k I think. Not sure, But I think I have seen that price somehwre.
     
  24. zcaps57

    zcaps57
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    oops.. :D
     
  25. ReTrO

    ReTrO
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2000
    Messages:
    3,498
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    High Wycombe, Bucks, UK
    Ratings:
    +59
    At a push with my student loan I could afford 1.
     
  26. zcaps57

    zcaps57
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    BTW, is that for a pair ?
     
  27. ReTrO

    ReTrO
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2000
    Messages:
    3,498
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    High Wycombe, Bucks, UK
    Ratings:
    +59
    Dunno. I caught the price on some place on the internet and cannot find again.
     
  28. dts_boy

    dts_boy
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Messages:
    2,515
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester suburbs...
    Ratings:
    +141
    this is a really interesting thread, well done! i have found that it doesn't matter how "accurate"a speaker is - its wether you like the sound or not. i recently listened to some signature 805 and i didn't like them; not to say they are bad, i just didn't like the level of detail and they were very unforgiving to the dance music i chose. the shop pointed out that i should pick some music that is well recorded but that didn't make sense to me - if i don't like the sound they make with the music i like then whats the point:confused: anyway, i have M&K s125 and love em:smashin:
     
  29. juboy

    juboy
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I agree dts_boy. I always thought the whole point of all this was to get as faithful a 'reproduction' of the original as possible. That, to me, suggests that something that makes your dance music sound great to you is better for your personal reproductive requirements (stop sniggering at the back) than something that may reproduce classical or 'well recorded' music very nicely but make dance music sound poor.

    BTW, as an addition to my earlier comments, just because some dance music (well, quite a lot actually) comes from lowly sources doesn't mean it all does. Some of it is exceptionally well produced and recorded.
     
  30. NicolasB

    NicolasB
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2002
    Messages:
    5,804
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Emily's Shop
    Ratings:
    +520
    That's £1400 per speaker, of course, not per pair of speakers. So for a 7.1 setup you'd be looking at 7x£1400, or a little under £10K. Three pairs of Signature 805s plus a Signature HTM comes to about the same, but then you've got amplification to pay for on top of that.

    Obviously you'd need a subwoofer in both cases, and I'm ignoring the price of stands and wall brackets and so on. One of Uncle Eric's powerbuy HGS18s would probably suit you for a sub - it integrates rather nicely with the M&Ks and it's better than any of M&K's own subs, I think.

    You could also perhaps spend another couple of thousand and get the tripole version of that speaker (the 2525P) for the surround left and right channels - of course *ipole vs monopole is a whole other thread in itself, but an M&K tripole is a nice compromise position between monopole and dipole.


    I am absolutely positively NOT going to be drawn into answering this question no matter what. Still have the scars. :(

    Why don't you organise a visit to Uncle Eric's batcave and have a listen? He's got a really neat projector in there as well (or did have, I don't know if it's still there) which sells for about £16,000. :eek:
     

Share This Page

Loading...