1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Dead Pixel Sony HS1

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by AV killed my CC, Jan 3, 2002.

  1. AV killed my CC

    AV killed my CC
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Messages:
    40
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +2
    Finally decided to invest in a Sony HS1 and ran for six hours last night. The side-shot feature really helps in the room I'm installing in so that tipped the balance. Picture quality off DVD, particuarly THX discs is superb. Sky was rather disapointing but maybe a shift to RGB ( need the expensive Sony cables though ) will improve.

    Anyway, Bobby Robson highlighted a green pixel on his chin ! which had not previously been visable and is rather irratating, and led to a scan for others. Appear to be a few others which although not complely dead look a little suspect. To be fair they do not show on most images, but were noticable on the SKY broadcast football.

    I believe dead pixels are a manufacturing issue ? so I'm assuimg no more will appear, are there any views on this or experience to bear this out?

    Anyway, off to the Sony Centre ( dont worry I struck a deal ! ) to find out their view on dead pixels.....
     
  2. Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Don't EVER apologise for buying from a dealer whether you struck a deal or not (even though you should always make a deal regardless of where you buy from) because your particular problem highlights a distinct advantage that buying from a shop has over cheaper pricing on the net, namely that you can easily take it back and argue your case in person. You may have shot yourself in the foot in that you should have demo'd the prospective PJ, checked for dead pixels and only bought when you were satisfied with what you were actually seeing.

    With any luck a Sony dealer may be sympathetic to your problem but note that Sony's corporate stance clearly defines the location and number of dead pixels which need to be evident before a swap will be netertained. Thats why its a good idea to buy the demo PJ if all is well, 99% of the time a dealer will not use a faulty PJ for demo's. Nonetheless you should try before you buy and go for the unit you are appraising. There will be a pricing premium doing business this way but at least you will be getting a perfect PJ.

    I speak from experience and I've got a perfect 11HT. I may have paid more but I don't have any problems. As far as I'm concerned there is nothing worse than a noticeable dead pixel, even if there's only one, because your attention will always be drawn to it if you know its there. Thats not home cinema, thats just bloody annoying.
     
  3. bishman

    bishman
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2001
    Messages:
    4,902
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    hertford
    Ratings:
    +172
    I am a bit new to this projector business, having only just started looking into it as a future investment, so excuse me if I seem a little ignorant on the matter.

    What I can't believe is that you could buy a new projector out of the box and get it home to find it faulty and not be entitled to a replacement. Surely a dead spot in the picture constitutes a fault? I can understand if it was months old and can't believe for a second that there is anyway you would not be able to get a replacement. I would be interested in anyones opinion on how this affects your statutory rights, but you have every right to expect something to be perfect out of the box. What next, buying a new keyboard and the manufacturer saying you can't change it if the space key doesn't work due to the fact that 4 keys need to be malfunctioning before a problem is acknowledged. Buying a new car with a wheel missing, but hey, it doesn't matter you still got three others!
     
  4. LV426

    LV426
    Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    12,753
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Somewhere in South Yorkshire
    Ratings:
    +4,907
    Rightly or wrongly, it is common practice among LCD manufacturers to define "faulty" in the context of bad pixels as something less than 100% perfect. For example, my LCD PC monitor has, in the manual, a statement that it is warranted to be 99.99% perfect (not 100%). That works out at 6 bad pixels are deemed OK. The manual for my VW10 makes reference to a few bright spots being a normal part of the manufacturing process. Etc.

    To be fair, we all buy CRT TVs with less than perfect geometry, voltage "bounce" and less than perfect convergence, and we live with it, up to a point.

    LCDs on the other hand, won't ever suffer from these problems, but can have bad pixels.

    In either case, it is a matter of costs. If manufacturers made everything 100% perfect with no tolerance, we'd all have to pay more for stuff. For TVs they'd have to spend more on getting them right. For LCDs they's have to reject more panels.

    Unfortunately, bad pixels on LCDs are, arguably, more intrusive than the typical defects on CRTs.

    The good news is that LCD pixels rarely fail during use. So, if you have a good one, it is very likely to stay that way.

    Which is why anybody buying an LCD device should check the hardware before paying for it.
     
  5. AV killed my CC

    AV killed my CC
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2002
    Messages:
    40
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +2
    I did buy the demo model ( as it only had one hours use on it ) and bought it from the Sony centre for peace of mind so I could take it back if readily if any issues. So possibly that makes me even more culpable for not spotting the issue with the pixel. However it took me a couple of hours of running at home ( and Bobby Robson on screen ) before spotting the offending pixel. I hope is because it appears green on a light background (including flesh tones ) but is not visible on a dark background ( e.g. blue, black etc. ) and not because it has developed with use. This suggests that red ? is not working for this pixel.

    I was heavily focusing on the black levels ( which are very good ) so watching Star Wars, Planet Of The Apes and Starship Troopers, and looking for any offending pixels that would detract from the black space experience and none do.

    The lesson I guess therefore is to demo with a range of material to tease out any pixel issues on a range of backgrounds.

    LP - As you mention the Sony policy do you know where it is stated – would be interested in reading it

    I’ve already been back to the Sony centre in question and advised them of my concern. Intend to give the image a close up look over this weekend to ensure no other issues and then decide if to pursue an exchange.

    Clearly once you go above a 28” 4:3 television visible artefacts or issues of some description of some sort get produced and become more noticeable, as Nigel says these can be geometry issues on CRT, but also convergence and burn-in concern on Rear Projection, cost of Plasma, digital artefacts on DLP projectors, cost of CRT projectors etc.etc. LP is right in that a dodgy pixel is bloody annoying.
     
  6. Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    If you have only one dead pixel on one panel then you shouldnt worry. This is well within the manufacturing specs of LCD panels.

    If you expect no dead pixels, then LCD projectors are not for you. Look at an alternative technology.

    Everytime some idiot insists on a replacement projector because of a dead pixel or two, the price for everyone else goes up a little. The manufactor cannot sell the returned (perfectly good) projector as it is no longer new.

    Some people expect more than their fair share in life (look at some of the posters on these boards!). When you buy you take the luck of the draw.
     
  7. General Skanky

    General Skanky
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2000
    Messages:
    4,206
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Ratings:
    +44
    I understand the fact that things aren't perfect, but I disagree with you el indio. The consumer has the 'right' to 'expect' the thing they have bought to be fit for the purpose it was bought for.

    The more complaints that are brought up, IMHO, actually pushes a manufacturer towards better standards. If they don't, it's their loss in the long run. Yes I know LCD technology has its flaws, but it doesn't mean a customer has to accept dead pixels.

    If it were your money, what are you prepared to accept as ok?
    That is the question.
     
  8. bishman

    bishman
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2001
    Messages:
    4,902
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    hertford
    Ratings:
    +172
    Some idiot? Expecting something to perform properly from new makes me an idiot? In that case I guess I am gonna have to defer to the wise ones who put up with spending thousands of pounds on something for it to not work 100%.

    Oh hang on a minute, the wise ones put up with defects and the fools expect them not to be there? DAMN! I just read that back, how daft does that sound, was on Mars or something for a minute. General Skanky got it spot on, we have the right to expect things to work properly. Fair enough if these defects develop over time but straight from the box?

    I guess maybe I shan't be buying a LCD projector.
     
  9. Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    AV,

    As far as Sony's dead pixel policy is concerned I can only advise what I was told by the dealer who I bought my 11HT from, since whatever policy exists between Sony and the dealer will automatically apply between the dealer and the consumer.

    Imagine your projection screen overlaid with a grid much the same as a game of OXO, ie split into 9 smaller screens. Sony state that a single dead pixel in the middle box is sufficient to permit an exchange. In the surrounding boxes a total of one dead pixel is acceptable in any one box. However, two dead pixels side by side ANYWHERE on the projected image would be accepted for replacement. Please bear in mind that these were the rules that were advised to me verbally at the time and as far as I can remeber, so don't shoot me if I've missed anything out.

    In my particular case I noticed two blue pixels side by side and got an immediate replacement. I blame myself because I should have asked for the PJ to be hooked up before I parted with any cash. Suffice to say I actually took the demo PJ away with me as a replacement after I scrutinised the picture for a good half hour.

    From what I can remember I was told that Sony had decided that they would no longer use third parties for distributing projectors and that all distribution would be handled directly by Sony, hence the clarity on the policy. You may find that other dealers adhere to a different regime but if there is any difference I doubt it will be in the consumers favour.

    I disagree with el indio in that dead pixels are NOT acceptable particularly on such expensive equipment. If dead pixels don't bother you, fair enough, but if they do then you should not have to accept the situation and I'll give you two reasons why. Firstly, if a PJ has no dead pixels then it has already set a precedent, the argument being that if one unit is perfect then there is no reason why the rest shoudn't be. And secondly, if PJ X is the same make, model and price as PJ Y but has dead pixels, how can you justify charging the same for a substandard unit?

    The why's and wherefore's are immaterial because you have the ability to avoid this situation ever occurring in the first place by simply buying the demo PJ or at least asking to see the boxed PJ unpacked and hooked up BEFORE parting with cash. The downside, well you can only do this if you buy from a shop and that will mean paying a bit more than you would by trawling the web for the best deal you can find. Look at it this way, you've got a big grin on your face 'cos you've just ordered an 11HT for less than 4 grand off the net. The nice man from Parcel Force drops it off, you unpack it, you hook it up, the drool is cascading out of your mouth when suddenly you freeze in horror.....dead pixel visible. Now tell me, do you think you would be wishing you'd gone to your local dealer now or what?

    The only winners are net buyers who strike it lucky and get a perfect PJ (I'm sure theres a fair few) but, and I'm not having a dig at you AV, but you are neither. You do, however, have a small chance as they say. Don't be a victim.
     
  10. Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    As far as I know the manufactures clearly state in the product manual that a couple of dead pixels is normal. Therefore the product IS fit for the purpose sold and there has been no false advertising. If the manufacturer stated 'no dead pixels' you would have a case.

    Thats right, Sony palms a dodgy projector on you and laughs all the way to the bank. Grow up!


    Video projectors LCD panels are made in billion pound factories after an investment of hundreds of thousands man hours of work and labour. Its lucky for us that some company is prepared to make this investment (I dont see no British companies lining up to do it).

    State of the art chip technology has dead pixels, like it or not. Not just in projectors but in TFT displays and CCDs as well.

    The manufactures had two choices: 1) except limited defects until the manufacturing process is perfect in say ten years time or 2) reject all bad panels / TFTs

    Lucky for most they went with 1. Othewise the HS1 would cost £5000 and then only knobs could enjoy home cinema.
     
  11. Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    "The manufactures had two choices: 1) except limited defects until the manufacturing process is perfect in say ten years time or 2) reject all bad panels / TFTs"

    Exactly how long do you think LCD panels have been around then?

    "Lucky for most they went with 1. Othewise the HS1 would cost £5000 and then only knobs could enjoy home cinema"

    Seems to me there are plenty of people willing and able to send back PJ's with dead pixels and hey, whaddya know, the HS1 ISN'T £5000. Looks like Sony's billion dollar empire has just been screwed by bad accounting. Hands up who wants to tell SONY its OK to charge more for their faulty PJ's! Oh come on there must be SOMEONE surely. Thought not.

    If you don't want to get bitten, don't swim with sharks.
     
  12. AlfaKhan

    AlfaKhan
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2001
    Messages:
    250
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Cascais, Portugal
    Ratings:
    +6
    El Indio,

    You are a Marketing dream come true!

    You seem to be well converted to the "Official LCD Manufacturers Policy". There is only 1 flaw in their/yours reasoning:

    Product market pricing/placement is always the manufaturer's decision and it always reflects the product rejection factor as one of the variables.

    Other (and even the same) manufacturers in similar areas have come up with diametrical opposed policies. An example? Plasma Panels. Do you know why they are so expensive? Because of really high (up to 60%) reject rates during the manufacturing process. Why did they not come up with a "Acceptable Limited Performance Policy”? Quite simply because they could not get away with it. Plasma panels either work or they don't. They simply, by their own nature, can not be made 99,99% perfect.

    Just try to see it from the consumer side. A simple disclaimer should be no reason for accepting other than perfect products.
    Final pricing is just a market driven factor and the manufacturer’s problem. Grown up people also know that while manufacurers like Sony, do not "palm a dodgy projector on you and laughs all the way to the bank", they also are not in the bussiness for charity sake.

    As a final argument for how flawed that course of thinking is, just remember: The same reasoning could be applied to almost every other consumer item. Should we accept everything we pay for to be in "almost" working condition, just because the manufacter dutifilly advised us of the fact and because that would push the final price down?

    I really don't think so....
     
  13. Paul D

    Paul D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2000
    Messages:
    2,620
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Manchester
    Ratings:
    +391
    Just a quicky!(NOT!)

    I bought my old SonyVW10HT from a shop at a very good price, with an agreement of zero bad pixels.

    A projector is a viewing device.

    If it was for business, then a few bad pixels may be acceptable.

    However.
    For Home Cinema viewing, "any" obvious defect is not acceptable.

    Imagine spending £4000+, then having a guest ask what that bright spot is!. Not good :(

    This is not as if that was the only defect.
    Poor blacks/contrast being the most common.

    They try to make bad pixels acceptable as a "caracteristic".

    Caracteristics are present in all the same type units/products. Ie fan noise/contrast levels/rainbows etc.

    Not as a lottery.............(which i won, as i got a pixel perfect one).

    How would you feel is your next flight was 99.9% successful?.
    Or the stitches on your clothes to be 99.9% sewn?.
    Or the brakes on your car work 99.9% of the time?.

    Okey so i'm going a little extreme!:D

    Maybe we do get a bit "anul" about quality sometimes.

    But poor blacks don't stand out as such, or slightly over red pictures spoil the picture etc. Not one person who saw my SonyVw10HT ever mentioned the slightly grey black level.
    But other things do.

    Bad pixels
    Rainbow
    Misconvergence
    Mpeg faults(Posterising etc)

    If Projector manufacturers have a acceptable failure rate. Well thats "their" acceptable failure rate!.
    They should have a "Microsoft" type acceptance seal on the Projectors box. Stating "their" acceptable failure rate.

    NOT IN THE BOX. ONLY READABLE "AFTER OPENING!!!.

    Just because makers cannot crack a quality issue, doesn't make it acceptable.

    DLP makers are at least trying to banish the dreaded "rainbows".

    The consumer law decides what is an acceptable quality, not the manufacturer. BUT.....

    I might start making projectors in the future, stating my own acceptable failure rates. Ie

    May have colour now and again.
    A full five minute warranty on the bulbs.
    Will only clean dust from the pathetic "filter" designed PJ, if it has only been used in a " Air Bubble".
    Will only exchange unit if bad pixels stop you from being able to see 50% of the picture.

    Then put a note inside the box stating "If you are reading this note, then you have agreed to never ask for a repair or refund"!.

    Maybe the solution would be a 30 day satisfaction arrangement?.
    Therefore, those who aren't bothered about duff pixels would keep there units. While those who were, could get a refund/replacement.

    No projector technology is perfect, but some things are more "acceptable" than others.

    The saying "Buyer beware" was made for projector buyers!

    Bye Bye;)
     
  14. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
    Editor Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2001
    Messages:
    9,713
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    AVForums
    Ratings:
    +6,976
    Well as i understand the Law,(something i do for a living) then the consumer if not 100% happy can return the product for a replacement or their mony back on faulty goods, or those that dont live up to fulfilling their role.

    So as Paul states you want a HC projector for watching movies then there should be no flaws in that image like dead pixels.

    Just out of interest, what PJ do you own El Indio, and are you happy with the flaws?mANUFACTERS DEFECTS ETC?

    And if you dont like me and my Idiot friends as you put it, GO AWAY! Paul mentioned US being Anal, I beg to differ in your case El:D
     
  15. paulsa

    paulsa
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    WOW !! Fisty cuffs:D i`m a new member to,never seen this before,El Indio,maybe you should listen a bit more to what is being said,if it `aint acceptable take it back to the dealer,if you accept these FAULTS (sorry, but a dead pixel is a fault, no matter what the manufacturers call it) the makers will not try to improve their production methods,it may be difficult to achieve but if you don`t push them,and accept faulty goods,they won`t bother,i can see the reasoning behind some of your points,but hell,it`s hard earned money we spend,if the companies want it,they have to come up with the goods,so each to his own,if you are happy with dead pixels,fine,but they wouldn`t be getting off so lightly from me(remember we are talking home cinema here,and that`s what the companies sell them as, and not as biz. presentation projectors) .........no matter what the company `line` was.:rolleyes:
     
  16. Tempest

    Tempest
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,821
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Horley, Surrey
    Ratings:
    +1,256
    As we seem to be entering the "should they be allowed to get away with dead pixels argument again" :p

    I was wondering:

    Although I doubt they would ever do it. Would people here be happier is they graded their products honestly rather than luck of the draw manufacturing ?

    A Grade = no dead pixels = top cost
    B Grade = 1 dead pixel = lower cost
    C Grade = more than 1 = lowest cost

    Then everyone would be happy... no ?
     

Share This Page

Loading...