De Menezes Police not to face charges

dingwall

Banned
The appeal against charging officers involved for manslaughter has failed.

If a doctor killed a patient through incompetence, they would be struck off and face manslaughter charges. If a mechanic killed a driver through incompetence, they would face manslaughter charges. If a train driver killed passengers through incompetence, they would face manslaughter charges. Why not the police?

The police have admitted and apologised for mistakenly IDing De Menezes as somebody else. We know that an officer lost track of following people coming in and out of the flats, as he went to 'relieve himself'. We know that those who shot Mr de Menezes had claimed in their interviews that he was wearing a heavy jacket which they thought was concealing a bomb, but we all know the photos from the scene show a tight denim jacket. We know that those who shot Mr de Menezes had claimed in their interviews that they shouted clear and indisputable warnings, but not one of the eyewitnesses on the train mentioned these in their interviews. If this is not sufficient grounds to charge, I don't know what is.

The police and CPS seem to be happy to cover everyone's backs, and think a fine for the Met Police on health and safety breaches (yes, it is true, I kid you not) will be seen to settle things.

Does anyone else feel sick about this?
 

Pat_C

Novice Member
It's a disgrace, but maybe not too surprising that the Police would conspire with the CPS to cover up its own failures. The alleged breach of health and safety regulations is nothing but an insult to the family of the victim. I just hope that within the Met those responsible have had suitably career-limiting red hot pokers inserted into their bottoms.
 

johnny70

Well-known Member
Does anyone else feel sick about this?
No, if we don't have police like this, who will shot the next man/woman who goes into a packed shopping centre full of kids strapped up with explosives?? wanting to kill them all!

My heart goes out to his family it really does, but also to the families of the police that put there lives on the line everyday to make our lives a little safer:smashin:

I think these guys do a fantastic job, but they, on occasion make mistakes just like the rest of us, yes this is fatal but it happens, maybe i will feel differently if this was my family, but its not.

This may not be everyones view, but its mine;)

Kind Regards

JOHNNY
 

Steven

Senior Moderator
johnny, what I, and maybe the majority, find to be a problem in this specific case is the fact that De Menezes did not act in any way to suggest anything untoward - to be stopped for, let alone shot without warning. Sure they had him under surveillance so maybe the police do know more than the public.

Its not so much about the police using firearms... more the expectation that they follow procedure when firearms are involved. We don't want this country to be like America. Gun crime and cases like this make the news as it is still rare in this country - contrary to the tabloids
 

Joe90sDad

Banned
johnny70, I'm sure plenty here appreciate the work the police do but that is irrelevant here.

Would you defend a reckless doctor who killed someone because other people in the medical field do such good work?

This isn't about all policemen, it's about the individuals concerned in this case.
 

johnny70

Well-known Member
johnny70, I'm sure plenty here appreciate the work the police do but that is irrelevant here.

Would you defend a reckless doctor who killed someone because other people in the medical field do such good work?

This isn't about all policemen, it's about the individuals concerned in this case.

yes, i would, mistakes happen, people have to have the balls to stand up and be counted, people make life and death decisions every moment of every day, why should we hang out to dry the ones that are willing to strp up to the mark and make thoose decisions, would you???

I stand by what i said, may not be popular but hey, i have very broasd shoulders.

Kind Regards

JOHNNY
 

Dave

Distinguished Member
My 2p, none of us know enough about what actually happened to decide whether the officers were in the wrong or not.

Those that do have decided that there are no charges to answer.

As sad as this story is, every time a police officer in this country has to use deadly force they are ripped to pieces by the media, hung out to dry by their superiors, and ruthlessly pursued by the IPCC.

The officers that made the decision to shoot obviously thought there was a threat to public safety and IMO did exactly the right thing. Had the poor chap actually been a suicide bomber then the officers would have been hailed as heros.

It's all well and good for us to comment on their actions as we sit in our nice, safe, comfy chairs but they were potentially in a life and death situation for many people and they made a decision. We should be supporting them cos they had the balls to make the call, not berating them because an innocent man was unfortunately killed.
 

M1kee

Active Member
The appeal against charging officers involved for manslaughter has failed.

If a doctor killed a patient through incompetence, they would be struck off and face manslaughter charges. If a mechanic killed a driver through incompetence, they would face manslaughter charges. If a train driver killed passengers through incompetence, they would face manslaughter charges. Why not the police?

The police have admitted and apologised for mistakenly IDing De Menezes as somebody else. We know that an officer lost track of following people coming in and out of the flats, as he went to 'relieve himself'. We know that those who shot Mr de Menezes had claimed in their interviews that he was wearing a heavy jacket which they thought was concealing a bomb, but we all know the photos from the scene show a tight denim jacket. We know that those who shot Mr de Menezes had claimed in their interviews that they shouted clear and indisputable warnings, but not one of the eyewitnesses on the train mentioned these in their interviews. If this is not sufficient grounds to charge, I don't know what is.

The police and CPS seem to be happy to cover everyone's backs, and think a fine for the Met Police on health and safety breaches (yes, it is true, I kid you not) will be seen to settle things.

Does anyone else feel sick about this?
Train drivers and mechanics dont have to make life and death decisions in split seconds. If the guy had turned out to be a terrorist and he had killed 100 people in a crowded tube train there would have been hell to pay for the police. I would rather one person be killed than 100 plus killed. I am thankfull that there are people out there that are prepared to pull the trigger, no questions asked, to look after my well being.

I feel pretty sick that you are criticising our police in very difficult times. Have a go at terrorists.
 

M1kee

Active Member
No, if we don't have police like this, who will shot the next man/woman who goes into a packed shopping centre full of kids strapped up with explosives?? wanting to kill them all!

My heart goes out to his family it really does, but also to the families of the police that put there lives on the line everyday to make our lives a little safer:smashin:

I think these guys do a fantastic job, but they, on occasion make mistakes just like the rest of us, yes this is fatal but it happens, maybe i will feel differently if this was my family, but its not.

This may not be everyones view, but its mine;)

Kind Regards

JOHNNY
Well said johnny
 

M1kee

Active Member
My 2p, none of us know enough about what actually happened to decide whether the officers were in the wrong or not.

Those that do have decided that there are no charges to answer.

As sad as this story is, every time a police officer in this country has to use deadly force they are ripped to pieces by the media, hung out to dry by their superiors, and ruthlessly pursued by the IPCC.

The officers that made the decision to shoot obviously thought there was a threat to public safety and IMO did exactly the right thing. Had the poor chap actually been a suicide bomber then the officers would have been hailed as heros.

It's all well and good for us to comment on their actions as we sit in our nice, safe, comfy chairs but they were potentially in a life and death situation for many people and they made a decision. We should be supporting them cos they had the balls to make the call, not berating them because an innocent man was unfortunately killed.

Well said Daerve too!
 

Joe90sDad

Banned
The officers that made the decision to shoot obviously thought there was a threat to public safety and IMO did exactly the right thing.
You don't know that's what they thought. Given what we know now, i.e. the truth, not the lies spread at the time about padded coats and jumping barriers etc. Menezes didn't appear to pose any threat. They even let him ride on the bus.

Mod edit: Deliberate flame baiting removed

Were the officers reckless though? They can only act on the information given to them.
We don't know what information was given to them precisely. That area is a bit grey. I believe this appeal failed not just to save the officers who did the shooting but all those involved in the lead up to it.
 

Knyght_byte

Novice Member
i'm with Johnny and Daerve on this......

yes its unfortunate, but we wont know the full details untill they are disclosed in some 30 years time......so presumably there are some details the police cannot reveal for the sake of national security.....what those details pertain to is something no one on here can draw a conclusion on....

I back the police fully, living in London i'm always likely to be close to a potential target for terrorists, when i was a young kid we didnt go in to central London at Xmas because mum was worried about the risk of IRA bombs.....well, nowadays i dont worry, i just get on with my life.....and if my feeling secure means a policeman might once in a blue moon have to make a mistake, so be it.....better a mistake for one life than the mistake of not acting and losing hundreds or thousands of lives....or who knows, even more...
 

Dave

Distinguished Member
You don't know that's what they thought. Given what we know now, i.e. the truth, not the lies spread at the time about padded coats and jumping barriers etc. Menezes didn't appear to pose any threat. They even let him ride on the bus.


Mod edited
Er, so they shot him for the fun of it. :eek:

Sorry but these are highly trained firearms officers we are talking about here, they don't shoot people for a giggle do they?


The powers that be have decided there are no charges to answer, period so who are we to pass judgement?
 

Adrenochrome

Well-known Member
We don't know what information was given to them precisely.
The information the officers involved were given was that he was a potential bomb threat. If you were one of the police officers involved how would you have reacted?
 

Pat_C

Novice Member
I think these guys do a fantastic job, but they, on occasion make mistakes just like the rest of us, yes this is fatal but it happens, maybe i will feel differently if this was my family, but its not.
There is no maybe about it, you would feel very differently if the Police put seven bullets into the head of someone in your family for no good reason. So your views are built on a foundation of hypocrisy, and should be valued as such.
 

mjn

Distinguished Member
Does anyone else feel sick about this?
You should be happy that our armed officers are a good shot!

He was following orders and doing his job.
 

Dave

Distinguished Member
There is no maybe about it, you would feel very differently if the Police put seven bullets into the head of someone in your family for no good reason. So your views are built on a foundation of hypocrisy, and should be valued as such.
But they didn't put 7 bullets in his head for no good reason, they put 7 bullets in his head because they thought he was a mortal threat to the public.

Sorry but we're not talking about the murder of an innocent passer by, the officers thought he was a threat to life and acted accordingly. It's absolutely tragic that he was an innocent man but as I said, had he been a suicide bomber those officers would have been hailed as heroes.
 

Pat_C

Novice Member
But they didn't put 7 bullets in his head for no good reason, they put 7 bullets in his head because they thought he was a mortal threat to the public.
Indeed, but they were wrong. So with hindsight it was very definitely for no good reason - although I do understand your point. But as has already been pointed out, there is no other area in which a professional person can exercise such poor judgement and with such tragic consequences, without being held accountable for that.

Extending this logic the Police could shoot anyone they felt like, and simply say that they thought they were a terrorist threat.
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
My 2p, none of us know enough about what actually happened to decide whether the officers were in the wrong or not.

Those that do have decided that there are no charges to answer.
And in a democracy bound by the rule of law, those that decide should be our impartial judiciary and legal system.

Whilst I sympathise with everyone involved in this tragic incident, I believe that justice should have been seen to be done. Let a jury decide whether the officers were guilty of any offence.
 

DVD-Man

Well-known Member
I'll make it short, if they hadn't killed him and he was a bomber then hell to pay, they did kill him then hell to pay so catch 22 really.

Was sad that the guy was innocent but why was he running given the climate of that time, sorry but running is always a sign of guilt.

Liam
 

Dave

Distinguished Member
Indeed, but they were wrong. So with hindsight it was very definitely for no good reason - although I do understand your point. But as has already been pointed out, there is no other area in which a professional person can exercise such poor judgement and with such tragic consequences, without being held accountable for that.

Extending this logic the Police could shoot anyone they felt like, and simply say that they thought they were a terrorist threat.

You said it yourself, with hindsight. That's the rub in this case.

With hindsight an innocent man was killed for no good reason at all but the officers involved did not have that benefit and had to make a decision.

Unfortunately that decision was wrong but at the time the officers acted as they saw fit. Had the situation been reversed somewhat and he had been a suicide bomber and the police did not act, we'd be in the same position in regards to the actions of those officers. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I don't think it was down to poor judgement at all cos at the time those officers made the right call, it's very unfortunate that with the benefit of hindsight an innocent man was killed but personally I feel we should support the officers who have to make an incredibly difficult decision in extreme circumstances.
 

Dave

Distinguished Member
And in a democracy bound by the rule of law, those that decide should be our impartial judiciary and legal system.

Whilst I sympathise with everyone involved in this tragic incident, I believe that justice should have been seen to be done. Let a jury decide whether the officers were guilty of any offence.
Indeed but the cps have reviewed the evidence and decided it would be a waste of taxpayers money because a jury would find them not guilty.
 

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