Darth Plagueis, Midichlorians, the Chosen One Etc.

There is a story line in The Clone Wars series which could also be looked at as the completion of the prophecy where Anakin travels to the source of the force.

Thats just a little close to LOTR just when I though TFA had swung more to the Arthurien legined. Excalibur anyone ?.
 
What is balance? Technically it could be argued it was done at the end of episodes three (if you discard Rebels etc..) in that 2 on each side (Yoda Obi-Wan - Palpatine, Vadar) and it could be argued it was completed at the end of episode 6 when Luke was all that was left in a peaceful galaxy but then by training new jedi he awoke the disturbance in the force and unbalanced it again

I believe that balance refers to there being no Sith at all. The reason being because this is the simplest answer and Star Wars is a simple story of good versus bad.. ie bad defeats good and we are all happy again and back to normal. By saying balance is equal proportions bad and good we are muddying the waters way too much and adding a whole layer of complication for what is meant to be a fun bit of escapism. I admit to over analysing stuff but saying that balance is 2 Jedi and 2 Sith is a step too far.

So with that in mind, the Sith were extinct for a millenia prior to Phantom Menace and the force was balanced during this time. The story starts at The Phantom Menace because the Sith reveal themselves. When there is an inbalance (ie when there are Sith around) the midichlrians concieve a being who will restore the balance (ie defeat the Sith). The midichlorians do this automatically because they are responding to their environment - this process is effectively 'The Prophecy'. However, Darth Plagueis interferred in the conception of Annakin, which explains why he became Darth Vader. The midichlorians got tricked basically. So while Annakin is indeed the 'chosen one', he was never going to fullfill the prophecy himself, it was never his destiny. The midiclorians failed big time. They inadvertently produced a seriously corrupted 'chosen one' who murdered children and competely failed to bring balance because 30 years later we still have a Sith Lord destroying planets. The way that balance will (hopefully) be restored in the end is via Annakin's children/grand children.
 
Nah, it is a metaphor. Prequel stuff was bad writing and bad storytelling by an ageing George Lucas.

No doubt Rian Johnson will retcon something interesting for Snoke though, or indeed invent something new.
 
Nah, it is a metaphor. Prequel stuff was bad writing and bad storytelling by an ageing George Lucas.

No doubt Rian Johnson will retcon something interesting for Snoke though, or indeed invent something new.
It adds to the whole mythology. I enjoy all the little mysterious details that George put in the prequels, they are little mythological nuggets of information that we can piece together.
 
I enjoy all the little mysterious details that George put in the prequels.
Mysterious details like...why can't Jake Lloyd act? Why did you create Jar Jar Binks? Was Hayden Christensen better in his screen tests? :p
 
It adds to the whole mythology. I enjoy all the little mysterious details that George put in the prequels, they are little mythological nuggets of information that we can piece together.

I'm firmly of the school that good writing means leaving mystery, leaving things unsaid. You saw it shows like the X-files and then Lost, the more they explained what had happened the more boring everything become. The Force itself was a mythology that everyone more or less felt comfortable with, because it was broadly like a fantastical version of religion itself (and all mythologies). As soon as Lucas started to explain it further with Midichlorians, it started sounding like BAD Sf writing. In my opinion. Lucas was always better at the broad strokes, and setting up the while thing obviously.
 
I'm firmly of the school that good writing means leaving mystery, leaving things unsaid. You saw it shows like the X-files and then Lost, the more they explained what had happened the more boring everything become. The Force itself was a mythology that everyone more or less felt comfortable with, because it was broadly like a fantastical version of religion itself (and all mythologies). As soon as Lucas started to explain it further with Midichlorians, it started sounding like BAD Sf writing. In my opinion. Lucas was always better at the broad strokes, and setting up the while thing obviously.
There is tons of mystery in the prequels and I could write a long list of things that are unexplained. All the theories that you read online are based on very vague snippets of dialogue from the prequels. So I disagree that George explained away all the mystery, he expanded it greatly. There is one scene in phantom menace where Qui Gonn explains to Annakin what Midichlorians are, This is the scene that I think you and a lot of other people get hung up on. Yes it's a bit clunky but it's really not that bad.
 
There is tons of mystery in the prequels and I could write a long list of things that are unexplained. All the theories that you read online are based on very vague snippets of dialogue from the prequels. So I disagree that George explained away all the mystery, he expanded it greatly. There is one scene in phantom menace where Qui Gonn explains to Annakin what Midichlorians are, This is the scene that I think you and a lot of other people get hung up on. Yes it's a bit clunky but it's really not that bad.

We'll agree to disagree, If it were up to me I'd have the prequels edited down to a 5 minute sequence of Yoda fighting.
 
I'm firmly of the school that good writing means leaving mystery, leaving things unsaid. You saw it shows like the X-files and then Lost, the more they explained what had happened the more boring everything become. The Force itself was a mythology that everyone more or less felt comfortable with, because it was broadly like a fantastical version of religion itself (and all mythologies). As soon as Lucas started to explain it further with Midichlorians, it started sounding like BAD Sf writing. In my opinion. Lucas was always better at the broad strokes, and setting up the while thing obviously.

Whilst I wouldn't necessarily agree with your examples (those shows used ambiguity to cover up for their inability/ unwillingness to explain anything), I do agree that good writing means establishing a bit of mystery- especially in a trilogy where you want to save things for later (and thereby get the pay off at the end).

Lucas' broad strokes approach in the OT was indeed much better, and in keeping with a quasi-religious mythology much like that in Lord of the Rings. Attempting to 'science the **** out of it' made it into poor-mans star trek. Little gadgets that could measure how much Force is in someone's bloodstream? Sod off.
 
Little gadgets that could measure how much Force is in someone's bloodstream? Sod off.

That's simply incorrect and a common misunderstanding. Midichlorians give the Jedi knowledge of the Force, they are not the Force itself. The Force itself has never been demystified.
 
That's simply incorrect and a common misunderstanding. Midichlorians give the Jedi knowledge of the Force, they are not the Force itself. The Force itself has never been demystified.
That sounds even more silly...
 
That's simply incorrect and a common misunderstanding. Midichlorians give the Jedi knowledge of the Force, they are not the Force itself. The Force itself has never been demystified.

I know (believe it or not I used to write for the Official Star Wars Fact Files and that was one of the subjects!). But it amounts to the same thing; a detector can work out how strong someone is in the force from a blood sample. Midiclorians add an unnecessary step which serves only to complicate and demystify something so elegant and simple.

Don't get me wrong; I'm very much a science guy and like my sci-fi to be explainable and believable. But this isn't sci-fi. Its a fairytale in space. It would be like finding out that Gandalf has little antenna in his beard that allow him to perform magic. a) useless. b) makes the whole thing seem sillier :).
 
I always thought that the immortality or returning from the dead they were on about was in the form of the force ghosts ?
 
I know (believe it or not I used to write for the Official Star Wars Fact Files and that was one of the subjects!). But it amounts to the same thing; a detector can work out how strong someone is in the force from a blood sample. Midiclorians add an unnecessary step which serves only to complicate and demystify something so elegant and simple.

Don't get me wrong; I'm very much a science guy and like my sci-fi to be explainable and believable. But this isn't sci-fi. Its a fairytale in space. It would be like finding out that Gandalf has little antenna in his beard that allow him to perform magic. a) useless. b) makes the whole thing seem sillier :).
The only thing that Midichlorians demystify as far as I can tell is that they explain how some people are more sensitive to the Force than others. That's all. However, in explaining this George created a whole load of other mysteries that remain unanswered and therefore expand the mythology.

Let's break it down.

Midichlorians do not exist. We can ask the following questions:

- What is the force?
- Why can some use it and others can't?

Midichlorians exist. We can ask the following questions:

- What is the Force?
- Why do some people have more Midichlorians than others?
- How do Midichlorians work, what is their motive, why do they create life?
- What is the Will of The Force?
- What is a vergence in The Force?
- Is Annakin really the most powerful ever?

I'm sure I could think of plenty more questions that Midichlorins raise but you get the idea. The fact that we now have something quantifiable that sits along side all the hokus pokus magical stuff makes it way more interesting. It's like any good religion, you need something hard in order to make all the vagueness more believable and engaging.
 
I always thought that the immortality or returning from the dead they were on about was in the form of the force ghosts ?
That reminds of another awesome detail in the ROTS

"To cheat death is a power only one has achieved"

Its another little nugget that George surely planted with episodes 7-9 in mind. It would be a real shame if they ignore this.
 
The only thing that Midichlorians demystify as far as I can tell is that they explain how some people are more sensitive to the Force than others. That's all. However, in explaining this George created a whole load of other mysteries that remain unanswered and therefore expand the mythology.

Let's break it down.

Midichlorians do not exist. We can ask the following questions:

- What is the force?
- Why can some use it and others can't?

Midichlorians exist. We can ask the following questions:

- What is the Force?
- Why do some people have more Midichlorians than others?
- How do Midichlorians work, what is their motive, why do they create life?
- What is the Will of The Force?
- What is a vergence in The Force?
- Is Annakin really the most powerful ever?

I'm sure I could think of plenty more questions that Midichlorins raise but you get the idea. The fact that we now have something quantifiable that sits along side all the hokus pokus magical stuff makes it way more interesting. It's like any good religion, you need something hard in order to make all the vagueness more believable and engaging.

That's my point though:

1. "Why are some people strong in the force?"

No answer, its a mystery.


2. "Why are some people strong in the force?"

They have a high count of midichlorians that help them commune with the force.

"So what's the force and how do the midichlorians commune with it?"

No answer, its a mystery.


The midichlorians explain nothing, while adding scientific credence to nothing. You are right that religions attempt to do this- but that's not something to be applauded. It only adds to confusion. eg:

1. "where did the universe come from"

Simple Answer: We dont know, perhaps There was a creator.


2. "where did the universe come from"

Complicated answer: there's a god, but he only reveals himself to certain people, in certain languages, and you have to do what his scriptures say... and you have to agree with us...or you'll go to hell...
 
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I always thought that the immortality or returning from the dead they were on about was in the form of the force ghosts ?

Same here. As Yoda mentioned in the ESB, 'Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter'.
 
That reminds of another awesome detail in the ROTS

"To cheat death is a power only one has achieved"

Its another little nugget that George surely planted with episodes 7-9 in mind. It would be a real shame if they ignore this.

I took that to be Qui-Qon Jinn. We hear his voice when Anakin slaughters the Tusken Raiders in AOTC and at the end of ROTS Yoda says he'll teach Obi-Wan how to commune with him. We've yet to see a Sith Force Ghost so I think only the Jedi learned how (or are able) to come back. Also explains why Anakin's Force Ghost looks like his younger Jedi self before he fell to the Dark Side.

Sidious/Palpatine was powerful so I suspect he knew/felt Qui-Gon had managed 'to return from the netherworld of the force'. He also wants Anakin to fully commit to being a Sith so it suits his purpose to dangle the carrot of being able to cheat death and save his wife to get Anakin on board.

Bear in mind the full quote from Sidious.
'To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret'.

He doesn't know himself so also needs Anakin to help him.
 
I took that to be Qui-Qon Jinn. We hear his voice when Anakin slaughters the Tusken Raiders in AOTC and at the end of ROTS Yoda says he'll teach Obi-Wan how to commune with him. We've yet to see a Sith Force Ghost so I think only the Jedi learned how (or are able) to come back. Also explains why Anakin's Force Ghost looks like his younger Jedi self before he fell to the Dark Side.

Sidious/Palpatine was powerful so I suspect he knew/felt Qui-Gon had managed 'to return from the netherworld of the force'. He also wants Anakin to fully commit to being a Sith so it suits his purpose to dangle the carrot of being able to cheat death and save his wife to get Anakin on board.

Bear in mind the full quote from Sidious.
'To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret'.

He doesn't know himself so also needs Anakin to help him.

I kind of like your thinking however the flaw in this theory is that a ghost is only the spirit of a dead person. So Qui Gon, Obi-Wan, Annakin... none of them have 'cheated death', they are all very much dead, but their spirit/soul exists in the netherworld and they have learnt to communicate from this place in the form of a voice in your head or visually as a floaty ghost thing. So when Yoda says that Qui Gon has 'returned' from the netherworld, he's just means that his spirit can now be communicated with.

Also remember that the quote is in response to "Just help me save Padmé's life. I can't live without her". I'm sure it would have occurred to Palpatine that Annakin meant more than just as a ghost.

Also if you conisder this 'cheat death' dialogue along with the darth Plageuis dialogue:

Palpatine: ... He had such a knowledge of the Dark Side, he could even keep the ones he cared about...from dying.
Annakin: He could actually...save people from death?

In order to become a ghost you have to die first. Here they are specifically talking about preventing death. So I think to 'cheat death' is to be on your death bed, verging upon life extinct, and then suddenly miracuously bouncing back, using the power of the Force. Palpatine possibly did this when he saved Annakin by draining Padmes life - thus together they learn the secret.
 
We'll agree to disagree, If it were up to me I'd have the prequels edited down to a 5 minute sequence of Yoda fighting.
Surely, aside from Jar Jar, that was the worst thing about the prequels, or am I alone?
?
 
I would suggest that some of what Palpatine says might be true, the rest is rubbish. He's a manipulator, a liar and can't be trusted.
 
I kind of like your thinking however the flaw in this theory is that a ghost is only the spirit of a dead person. So Qui Gon, Obi-Wan, Annakin... none of them have 'cheated death', they are all very much dead, but their spirit/soul exists in the netherworld and they have learnt to communicate from this place in the form of a voice in your head or visually as a floaty ghost thing. So when Yoda says that Qui Gon has 'returned' from the netherworld, he's just means that his spirit can now be communicated with.

Also remember that the quote is in response to "Just help me save Padmé's life. I can't live without her". I'm sure it would have occurred to Palpatine that Annakin meant more than just as a ghost.

Also if you conisder this 'cheat death' dialogue along with the darth Plageuis dialogue:

Palpatine: ... He had such a knowledge of the Dark Side, he could even keep the ones he cared about...from dying.
Annakin: He could actually...save people from death?

In order to become a ghost you have to die first. Here they are specifically talking about preventing death. So I think to 'cheat death' is to be on your death bed, verging upon life extinct, and then suddenly miracuously bouncing back, using the power of the Force. Palpatine possibly did this when he saved Annakin by draining Padmes life - thus together they learn the secret.

Ever since watching ESB in the cinema as a teenager I'd always thought that a glowing Obi-Wan was mean't to represent and give credence to Yodas comment to Luke about 'Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter'. I can't remember when the term 'Force Ghost' was actually first used and who coined it. I took it that Obi-Wan didn't die, he just became one with the Force.

I appreciate that we all have different viewpoints but I don't think Palpatine drained Padmes life to sustain Anakin. As much as I dislike how her death was portrayed in ROTS (losing the will to live despite having just given birth) I saw nothing that indicates it was down to Palpatine pinching her life force.

I think Anakin would have been toast (literally!) had he not been found and placed into a medical capsule and then into his Darth Vader suit.

Palpatine was manipulating and playing on Anakins fears throughout ROTS as he needed him as part of his grand plan. He'd say whatever he needed to, to get him on side. He's a sneaky one is Palps. :D

Anyway, we all have our own theories, right or wrong! :)
 
Yoda versus 1m 96 Christopher Lee people! Stick that up your midichlorians.
 

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