Dali Rubicon 2 & Dali Rubicon Vokal - advice needed

PuritanicalBrain

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Good day, Avforums people!
A quick disclaimer first and foremost, I'm new here and this is my first post, I apologize if I'm doing something wrong around here. I couldn't find a suitable thread so I have created this one.
So here it goes:
I have recently decided to do some upgrades on my Home Theatre system. I had some Q Acoustics 5.1 on a Yamaha Aventage RX-A880. It sounded good, I still believe the Q Acoustics are amazing value for the quality they offer, but I had that itch knowing I can get better. So I acquired a pair of shiny Dali Rubicon 2 for fronts and a Dali Rubicon Vokal for the center and kept the same receiver, RX-A880. The Surround back job was passed over to the former fronts, two Q Acoustics 3020, they seem to be doing a good job, for the time being, no worries there. The sub is the old Q Acoustics 2070, it seems to be able to cover the room just fine, I aim to replace it in the future too with something better.
Unfortunately, I cannot find much information regarding Dali Rubicon 2 and even less about the Vokal, I mean I read some reviews here and there, but those reviews can't cover all my concerns.
Here are some of my dilemmas:
The RX-A880 sounds quite nice and musical and I'm glad it's not one of them bright receivers, the same goes for the Dali Rubicons 2. The films sound nice on them, however, with regards to music playing I sometimes feel that the midrange is somewhat lackluster. It's worth mentioning that the music I listen to is metal, it's fast, dynamic and I would like to be able to hear all the details regarding the drums (sometimes I feel it can be done better) and without distorting (much) on the highs. As I said the RX-A880 is doing a decent job there, better than my previous Onkyo TX NR609 for instance, but I'd like those drums to be punchier. I am aware that although the RX-A880 can do 4ohms on the fronts (I'm not sure if that goes for the center as well, to be honest) those Dali Rubicons 2 may need more muscle than the Avr can offer in order to be driven optimally. So I'm thinking I could add a stereo amp to drive the fronts.
The Rubicon Vokal I feel it could sound better too, I intend to bi-wire it as bi-amping seems more complicated and probably less worthwhile than getting a stereo amp for the fronts and hope that the freed resources would boost the center. At least that's my perspective for now.

I had the chance to audition an Arcam AVR 390 but wasn't impressed, I felt it didn't offer me anything over the RX-A880 (could be due, I have also auditioned some amps (some Cambridge Audio and Audiolab), I did feel that the Audiolab 8300A stood out among all those. If any of you own or have experience with the Dali Rubicon 2, what Amps would you recommend to give them a better chance to shine and make the most of them? It doesn't look like going the AVR way can bring that, unless I'm wrong.
It would also help if you could recommend what class of Amp I should be looking for along with models/brands.
Eventually, some recommendations of subwoofers that would pair up well with the speakers and be able to keep up with such fast and dynamic music, so it's not about the loudest bang but about the more precise response if it makes sense. In all cases, if possible without breaking the bank, of course, I'm looking into the midrange sector mostly or upper midrange.

I wish I could have summed up all this but I hope at least I was explicit. If any of you have the experience and the time and willingness to help shed some light on all this it will mean a lot to me. Many thanks and I wish you all a happy new year in advance!

 
Allan @Ideal AV sells Dali and probably has good idea which brands to look with Rubicons.

As for the time being make sure you haven`t changed the impedance switch to 4ohm with your receiver or activated the ECO mode. These settings will not do you any good with the lovely speakers you have bought.

I assume you have played with 2ch stereo mode and Pure Direct mode, which closes everything from background including room correction as in "purest mode". If using 2ch stereo mode with subwoofer, you can go in the menu where you find the YPAO eq curves like flat, natural etc. Flat is default, but you should also try OFF. Not everyone likes the "corrected" sound, if listening without sub then pure direct mode is ideal.


You didn`t mention any budget for subwoofer, but if looking something in the ~500£ range then BK XXLS400 is highly respected what many calls as very musical sub. It offers high level and low level connections simultaneosly, known quality Peerless drive unit with AB-class amp & decent amount of juice, many different finish options to suit your room decor so it can look more like a furniture. And of course made in UK Essex which is important for many.

There is always something better when the budget goes higher up, but remember if you put 1k£ to sub you can get dual XXLS400 for the same price and there is benefits with dual woofers even for stereo system, so few ways to go...
 
Looking at the specs, the speakers you have aren't particularly efficient so may benefit from a more powerful amp. That said, the Q acoustics don't look to be any more efficient than the Dalis. Did you have the same issues with them?

Your amp is rated as 100w with two channels driven. Usually the issue of amp power comes in to play when people have issues with multichannel audio - the centre channel being unintelligible, or not enough volume with movies. This is because the amp only has a certain amount of power and when you drive 5 or 7 channels you split that power among them. This drops the power to your main channels to, probably, closer to 60w.

Are you listening to music in multichannel? You talk about the drums in what I assume is stereo music, but then you talk about the centre as well?

A power amp might help you here if you're talking about multi-channel It's often the suggestion when the problem relates to multi-channel as the fewer channels your Yamaha has to drive, the more of its power it has for the remaining channels. Surrounds take less power then the front three as there's generally less content there.

Offloading either the L/R or the centre channel might help you. Can you borrow a power amp from someone to test?

Second, don't bother bi-wiring the centre, it won't make any difference and might make things worse. All bi-wiring does is double the gauge of the wire, but in a non-optimal way. Passive bi-amping is also no use and will use up more of your amps power.

The only effective bi-amping method is active bi-amping where you're able to use a pre-amplification crossover to send only the appropriate portion of the audio signal to the amp channel that's connected to either the low or high frequency binding posts of the speakers. As you say, it's complicated.
 
@Gasp3621, thank you very much for the info and suggestions.
I have to admit I have switched the impedance to 4ohms already as it felt like an implicit action since Dali recommends that for the Rubicons 2. I will go back and forth and see which sounds better.
Ypao doesn't do much for me so I keep it off. Recently (a week ago) I moved into new accommodation and the room where I keep the system has some echo. I'm already planning to add something on the walls and maybe some curtains as the last remedy to get rid of the echo, this is only a temporary issue anyway.
In my old place, I have tested Ypao and it never sounded right to my ears (neither stereo nor surround). The same was for Onkyo. So, for now, I do some manual tuning (distance, levels ) and seems fine, especially for multichannel sound.
In stereo and straight mode the RX880 would not ignore the subwoofer unless I turn it off from the settings menu. In Pure Direct mode, it only plays music over the front speakers (so no subwoofer), but I find it sounds somewhat bland, I find it can sound less good than in stereo mode with the subwoofer turned off. Or it could just be subjective, some placebo effect or something.
An interesting choice about sub, I have been checking it out recently too, a plus is also that they're not too big. Still considering options.
 
@Conrad. The Q Acoustics didn't pose any problems for the current or previous Onkyo receiver. On the Onkyo, in particular, I used to let it play music in "All channels stereo" mode sometimes, with Yamaha I do always 2channel stereo or straight as it offers a much better stereo focus than the previous Avr.
I brought the center into discussion as it was part of my dilemmas I have. It's big and was wondering if the Yamaha can drive it well. I consider bi-wiring, some say it will bring a benefit, albeit minimal. On the other hand, it (the center) doesn't have much of a problem to dominate the other speakers so it can offer a centered audio image. I was however worried that it may require more amp power as it might not be easy to drive even compared with the Rubicon 2 fronts. That's why I was considering to move the fronts to an Amp and to leave the center and the surrounds on the Avr, maybe they'll benefit from the resources. But that's my theory, your experience could differ of course.
I'm also hoping that an amp will help make the most of the Rubicons as the upper power range limit required is beyond what the Yamaha can do. Again, that's my theory and in moments like these I'm hoping the more experienced of you would help with your feedback.
Decisions, decisions decisions...
Thank you for the suggestions Conrad.
 
Regarding bi-wiring or bi-amping, remember that the speaker isn't "pulling" the signal, the amp is "pushing" it to the speaker. So you'll be sending a full range signal to both the HF and LF terminals, some of which will be discarded. If you have the cabling already, go for it.

Adding an amp to power either the fronts, or the centre by something other than the AVR will free up headroom in the AVR to handle the remaining channels.

How loud do you listen and how large is your listening space?

You've managed to touch on some really prickly points!: bi-wiring/cabling, amp classes, power ratings, surround processing. They're all hotly contested points in audio. Throw in cable quality and you've hit them all pretty much.

Power amps should be neutral in sound, but the power they have will allow them to have a better handle on the speakers. If you're not happy with the Yamaha for music then I would suggest a stereo amp for the LRs, that way you get the benefit for both music and movies. Or go with a 3 channel for the LCR.

You have two options initially, tube or solid state. Tubes are a bit more niche and have a very distinctive, warm sound. Don't be put off by the low wattage of tube amps, a 15wpc tube amp is not the same as a 15wpc solid state amp. Probably closer to a 50wpc.

Assuming you don't go tubes, then you have various classes of solid state. A, A/B and D.
pure A is probably out, mainly due to cost. They're very expensive to get high power outputs from. The benefits are that you can turn your heating off as they put out a large amount of heat and will heat your house.

A/B is the traditional amp and is probably what your Yamaha is. These amps are class A for the first X watts and then they switch to class B, which is more efficient. They're only as good as their transformer though, they rely on having a huge transformer in them if you want high output power. This is the problem you're running in to with the Yamaha. It has a transformer that's capable of outputting a certain power and that power is shared across all the channels. This means it won't be able to drive all channels at high volumes.

Then there's class D. Class D is a much more efficient topology which means you can get huge power out of a much smaller, lighter, cooler (and cheaper) box. They used to be quite shrill and harsh, but they're much better now. Brands to look at are Nord, Rouge Audio (not Rogue audio, they're something else), Apollon, Temple Audio (they do some lovely little monoblocks that might work well for you). Most manufacturers use one of two chips at the moment, either Hypex NCore, or IcePower. There are even some guys on eBay selling custom IcePower amps that have 600wpc. Look for the IcePower 1200AS2 chips. It doesn't matter which one you go for as the boards are all the same. The differences are in the cases and the connectors etc.

Also have a look at Crown. The XLS range is very popular in home cinema and have a huge amount of power for the money. I'm running a set of big floorstanders on a 1502 and it has amazing control of them.
 
I have to admit I have switched the impedance to 4ohms already as it felt like an implicit action since Dali recommends that for the Rubicons 2. I will go back and forth and see which sounds better.

No, keep it at 8ohm always! Your receiver gives more power in the 8ohm default setting, just like other receivers. This has been shown many times by measuring them. The 4ohm switch is just there to pass some heat tests. Make sure it has proper ventilation.

From Audioholics article:

In virtually all of the receivers we've tested with impedance switches, flipping the switch to the low setting would put your speakers at risk of receiving dangerously clipped AC signals when attempting high output levels. While it may operate more safely for a steady-state UL heat dissipation test, it's important to note the real world tradeoffs once this switch is engaged in its low setting.

The low impedance setting may severely power limit your system which can degrade sound quality and potentially damage your speakers.



From Yamaha RX-A860 measurement review which is basically same machine than your A880 by internal components.

The Yamaha RX-A860 was defaulted to high impedance mode (8-ohms or more), which is the setting we recommend using regardless of your loudspeakers’ impedance rating if you are concerned about achieving maximum output power and performance from this unit.

Caution: No matter how tempted you may be to do otherwise, DO NOT change the default "8 ohm min" impedance setting of ANY Yamaha receiver. All this does is starve your speakers of power, simply so Yamaha could get 4 ohm certification (at a reduced power level) without making the receiver get too hot during their power tests.
 
@Conrad.
Quite a comprehensive explanation, thank you very much.
I started thinking about class D amplifiers as I stumbled upon an advert of XTZ EDGE A2-300 (any ideas about this one by the way? ), it seemed to be getting decent reviews for the class price it was in, not that one can trust reviews too much.
Would you say I might be better off with a class D for my case, rather than the praised AB amps?
The current room size is average, like a big double room, not a huge space to cover, I'm not really worried about the loudness as I never cranked up the volume to max. I'm more focused on the sound quality of course considering the gear that I currently have. A plus would be to have good sound quality (or should I say fidelity) at lower volumes (let's say 30-40%), not only at high sound volume (70% and beyond). I will definitely follow up on the recommendations regarding the IcePower 1200AS2.
 
No, keep it at 8ohm always! Your receiver gives more power in the 8ohm default setting, just like other receivers. This has been shown many times by measuring them. The 4ohm switch is just there to pass some heat tests. Make sure it has proper ventilation.

I didn't know that, I only changed the impedance from the advanced settings of the Avr. I didn't notice any issue like clipping, but then again I don't tend to push the volume more than 60% or so.
What about a future certified 4 ohms Stereo amplifier that I might get, should I leave it at 8 ohms even if the speakers are rated for 4 ohms, such as the Rubicons? Noob question, but I'd rather have a better understanding of this aspect!
 
I didn't know that, I only changed the impedance from the advanced settings of the Avr. I didn't notice any issue like clipping, but then again I don't tend to push the volume more than 60% or so.
What about a future certified 4 ohms Stereo amplifier that I might get, should I leave it at 8 ohms even if the speakers are rated for 4 ohms, such as the Rubicons? Noob question, but I'd rather have a better understanding of this aspect!

Yep you likely won´t notice any problems with moderate volume, but then again the default setting should sound better as it offers more power (headroom) and be the safer choice. The power output drop has been dramatic when the switch has been set to 4ohm, like 60-70% drop in power. I have no idea about the stereo amps settings as i concentrate on AV stuff only.

Definitely look in to quality stereo amps or poweramps like Conrad has mentioned here. Anything below A10x0 serie from Yamaha is not going to be ideal choice with the superb speakers you have. There is some compromises which is due to packing so many features these days.
 
@Conrad. I`m not familiar with those poweramps, but there is one thing i want to point out which i think applies to A880 if PuritanicalBrain is buying poweramp.

This is from A860 review and i have a feeling they have not "fixed" this in new model.

In the past some Yamaha AV receivers had weak output drivers in their preamp outputs where they didn't supply enough voltage to hit the magic 2Vrms, which is what most power amplifiers need to achieve full rated power. Sadly, it looks like Yamaha has taken a step backwards with the RX-A860. At 1.9Vrms output, the receiver shut down. When I checked at a slightly lower output (1.6Vrms), I noticed a pretty nasty FFT distortion profile. There simply is NO excuse for this in a day and age when opamps are cheap and supply voltage is plentiful.

At 1Vrms, the output looks much cleaner. If you're planning on using external amplification with the RX-A860, look for a power amplifier with a relatively high voltage gain (29dB or greater) so that it can achieve full rated power below where the preamp outputs of the RX-A860 starts clipping. For example, a 200-watt amplifier with a voltage gain of 29dB will reach its rated power at around 1.4Vrms.
 
Definitely look in to quality stereo amps or poweramps like Conrad has mentioned here. Anything below A10x0 serie from Yamaha is not going to be ideal choice with the superb speakers you have. There is some compromises which is due to packing so many features these days.

I could easily get the RX 1080 if it would solve my problems. But it offers features that I don't need at all (like more zones and more channels) while it only offers just an extra 10 wats of power per channel, which is welcome, but I wish it was more. That's why I started thinking of supplying the extra power with an external amp. Choosing the right Amp is also a headache many choices of brands, models and classes... it's why I'm counting on your experience to point me in the right direction.
 
Did you notice the lack of midrange before as well as after the 4 ohm setting?
If so, have a listen with it set back to 8 ohm and see if that improves things.

As for classes, it's a tough call. It's a completely different architecture so I'd try and have a listen to some before you commit. I use a mixture and both sound fine to me. You get more for your money with class D and I'll be surprised if you can hear a difference between a class A/B and a class D pure power amp. I'm not familiar with the XTZ amp but it's an IcePower module. it's the smaller one though, that 300w figure is at 4 Ohms so you can expect 150 or so into 8. It'll probably sound exactly the same as all the other IcePower based modules though.

Those Ice modules are really highly rated, including in the XTZ amp: ICEpower inside: XTZ amplifier receives highest rating in 10 years - ICEpower. I want some.

I'm looking at these: ICEpower 1200AS2 power amplifier * class D * klasse D * high efficiency | eBay

One thing to note, the watts isn't the be all and end all figure, there are plenty of other values that affect a power amps performance (not sound, they should be neutral, but they'll control speakers differently which will end up with a slightly different sound). Things like slew rate, damping factor and plenty of other things that I don't understand. There's a good saying about watts that it's the first watt that's the most important. If the first watt is bad, why would you want to send another 499 of them? Basically, don't only think the more watts = better, but you want some headroom.

@Gasp3621, good info about the output voltage. You could put a minidsp in the chain and increase it that way, but not ideal.
 
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Did you notice the lack of midrange before as well as after the 4 ohm setting?
If so, have a listen with it set back to 8 ohm and see if that improves things.
I initially tested the Rubicons 2 with Yamaha on 8 ohms, as I kept it default with Q Acoustics. Afterwards I decided to use it on 4ohms to explore the possibilities of obtaining improvements actually.

Basically, don't only think the more watts = better, but you want some headroom.

That's exactly my approach too, I don't need the loudness much, but I wouldn't want the speakers to be bottlenecked by the lack of power. I like to leave some headroom in everything if possible.


I'm tempted to give that EDGE A2-300, it seems to have the right amount of power for these speakers. The price is decent too. Unfortunately, I can't find it anywhere to be able to audition on it, all I could do is to buy it and return it within 30 days if it doesn't deliver. Not really my thing to return stuff, but I may have to resort to that. Also, I might try some other models or types before committing to the above, class D amps don't seem to be popular though.
 
Have a look at the Nord Hypex thread, plenty of happy owners there. My understanding is that these Ice modules are outstanding though, I just can't work out where I can make one work. The Edge amp looks like a good buy. If you can't find a local dealer I think the only option would be an in home demo. It'll give you a chance to use it with a few sources before making your decision.

If you want to try class D you're probably going to have to order with the intention of returning or reselling. There aren't many sellers, most are internet direct, and those that do might not have the speakers and your amp. A home demo really is the best way.

Class D amps got a bad press as early generations were bright and thin sounding, that's not the case anymore but it's a hard image to shake off.
 
Hello everybody, I hope the new year started well for all of you!
I finally managed to get some days off from work and leave aside all else and do some more testing.
So I followed your suggestion and set up the AVR back on 8 ohms, my ears can't detect any difference, to be honest, it sounds as good as it did on 4ohms so I guess you were right to leave it on 8ohms after all. It does exhibit the same shortcomings, those drums could and should be punchier and clearer.
Now I'm still reading about those Class D amps, I'm trying to understand if all this Ice-Power and Hypex Ncore thing is a hype (pun not intended but why not allow it after all) or it really is gaining ground as they say.
Man, this is tougher than choosing a wife!!!
 
I think you should leave it at 4ohms. If there is a dip in impedance, it will mess with the response of the speaker at the frequencies that operate at 4.4ohms on the rubicons.

Regarding punch, It could be your amp, you need a decent Integrated Stereo amp to hear what the rubicons can offer. You dont need a lot of watts. I only have 60wpc at 4ohms on mine and the Rubicons are very punchy and dynamic. I've home demoed alot of speakers (B&W, Kef, Wharfedale) before concluding on the Rubicon 2 and I can say the rubicons demolish them all. Try buying used decent integrated amp (I use Onkyo 9150) and you will hear a clear difference. Make sure the amp you will get is properly rated at 4ohms. Some amps have 4ohm capability but at an incredibly high THD.
 
I think you should leave it at 4ohms. If there is a dip in impedance, it will mess with the response of the speaker at the frequencies that operate at 4.4ohms on the rubicons.

Regarding punch, It could be your amp, you need a decent Integrated Stereo amp to hear what the rubicons can offer. You dont need a lot of watts. I only have 60wpc at 4ohms on mine and the Rubicons are very punchy and dynamic. I've home demoed a lot of speakers (B&W, Kef, Wharfedale) before concluding on the Rubicon 2 and I can say the rubicons demolish them all. Try buying used decent integrated amp (I use Onkyo 9150) and you will hear a clear difference. Make sure the amp you will get is properly rated at 4ohms. Some amps have 4ohm capability but at an incredibly high THD.

@mykeldg

Thank you for the advice!

I got a Nord amplifier ( Nord One UP NC500DM 3CH Silver | nordacoustics ) but so far I'm not overwhelmed with the result, and I'm referring to the result not to the Amp itself as it doesn't seem to integrate well with the Yamaha RX 880. The sound is fairly warm which I like but the pre-outs on Yamaha cannot drive the Nord amp well enough. I wish I learnt about the importance of the pre-outs voltage when matching and amp with a preamp.
Basically the music sounds good, but loudness wise it seems to flatten out too quickly and definitely cannot employ the muscle of such an amplifier.
To be honest I'm thinking to return the amp and opt for an integrated one eventually. Also, I might upgrade to a better Yamaha avr as well.
 
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You could swap the hypex nord for an ice power one and see how it compares?
 
You could swap the hypex nord for an ice power one and see how it compares?

Nord One specs show gain 26db. This is what was said about A860 which should be quite identical to A880.

"If you're planning on using external amplification with the RX-A860, look for a power amplifier with a relatively high voltage gain (29dB or greater) so that it can achieve full rated power below where the preamp outputs of the RX-A860 starts clipping. For example, a 200-watt amplifier with a voltage gain of 29dB will reach its rated power at around 1.4Vrms."
 
All the ice power modules (from all the manufacturers I’ve looked at) are the same gain - 26dB. Not surprising given they’re the same modules.

Maybe a minidsp isn’t looking like such a bad idea? Cheaper than a new receiver.
 
Still weighing in all possibilities at this stage, I have nearly 10 days to return the new Amp, will see how it goes. Feeing a bit disheartened, but sometimes that's how it goes.
 
What did you do in the end? And, out of interest, were the Dalis broken in when you did the evaluation?
 

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