Current and future DVD-R, DVD-R/W compatible players?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by silver_sam, May 20, 2002.

  1. silver_sam

    silver_sam
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    Hi all,

    I did some search here but found not much info on above topic.

    So far i know Pioneer 444 and Sony 700 will read DVD-R, DVD-R/W discs. Tosh 510 may do some discs. Is there any other current/future mid range and high end player that do the job? ...just as a matter of interest.

    Would this capability be a standard default in the future mid range and high end player?

    Ta
     
  2. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    Do not get confused by two types of DVD-RW disc (well the discs are the same but the contents are different).

    Most new DVD Players will play a DVD-RW disc as long as it is authored to be a DVD Video, which you would do on your computer using an authoring package.

    However a Pioneer 7000 DVD recorder (and other DVD-RW recorders), in order to provide real-time recording functions, erasing etc, use a different format called DVD Video Recording or VR mode.

    So discs written in these machines only play in machines that specifically state they play them. Currently Pioneer show the RW logo on its players (545 upwards) not to show support for DVD-RW necessarily, but to show the player works with discs written in the VR mode. Some Sony's also play these VR discs, but Sony do not use any logo to show this, so you have to check the specs.

    The VR format is approved by the DVD Forum, and if they ever arrive DVD Multi players will play anything, including DVD-RAM.

    DVD-R is only ever written to as DVD Video, and these discs are very compatible. See the list at www.vcdhelp.com for players and what they support.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  3. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    I have some firsthand information on this and don't really agree with (or understand) what Philip wrote above.

    A lot of the issues reported are Media related.. If you use cheap media, it won't play on some players (or will play, but the playback will stutteer and break up).. More expensive media, generally give better compatability.

    DVD-R and DVD-RW are writen in the same way.. Its just that RW is erasable. When you look at RW disks, they are phsically a different colour and the contrast of the writen area is not so visible.

    As such, it seems that a lot of player have trouble reading RW media.

    As with CDR, there are many different ways of writing DVD-R(W).. You can write an ISO file system, UDF, Video, Audio.. The choice is yours.

    Obviously, a standalone DVD player will only play a DVD-R(W) if its been authored in a 'complient' format.. DVD-Video is obviously the only thing that will play.

    In my tests. I have found that DVD-Rs will play on Most existing players.

    I have tested on:

    Sony
    Pioneer
    Samsung
    Wharfdale (The New model)
    Mustec

    They all play DVD-R fine.. However, RW is a different matter.

    Out of all the player I have tested, only the Pioneer reads the RW disks.. Its not the content of the disk which is causing the problem, but the fact that the player can't read the media. If you listen to the drive, you can hear it making a lot of noise, because it can't physically read the disk.

    But DVD-R seems to be very compatable with most old and nearly all new players.

    However, there are a few exceptions that I have found so far.

    The old Wharfdale player, won't read them at all.. Again, its not the content which is causing the problem.. you only have to listen to the drive to hear that its struggling to read the media.

    Toshiba is the worse problem so far (I understand Panasonic and Hitachi are affected too)... Toshiba players read the disks, but they won't play...

    There is something about the content which it doesn't understand... To get a disk to work on the Toshiba, you have to author it "in a certain way".. Trouble is.. No-one knows what this "certain way" is... Again, this isn't a media problems.. Its down to some lack of conformity on the Toshiba, or the current Authoring/Burning software.

    This is a huge subject to talk about.. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
     
  4. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    Thanks for your comments. (Silver-sam, if you post back on how you will actually create or record your DVD-RWs I/we might be able to confirm what player you would need to read them.)

    Although do not fall into the trap of looking at the disc and judging its reflectivity, unless you have laser vision you are not seeing it as DVD player would :)

    Okay lets get down to what is happening with regards reflectivity and compatibility:

    DVD-R reflectivity falls into the same range as a pressed Single Layer DVD.

    DVD-RW reflectivity falls into the same range as a dual layer DVD. Dual layer DVDs are less reflective than single layer as the laser needs to be able to focus through one of the layers. (DVD-RW are less reflective due to the technology they use, they can not be made as reflective as a DVD-R or standard DVD.)

    A DVD player laser can easily read both types of DVD (the situation with CD-RW is different on CD players).

    The problem with DVD-RW is that some players become confused, as they see the reflectivity of a dual layer disc, but only find a single layer. It is a firmware issue. Other issues are some players only will play a disc if it recognises the book flag (data on the disc that says I am a DVD-RW). If its firmware does not know what a flag for DVD-RW is it may refuse to play it.

    DVD-Rs are more likely to work as they look like a single layer DVD and are a single layer DVD. Also more effort has been made with DVD-R to ensure DVD players recognise the flag that says I am a DVD-R.

    Forgetting computer systems, DVD for video playback has two main application versions, DVD Video, and DVD Video Recording. DVD Video uses the logical format for DVD-ROM, and the usual format we know with Video_ts folders etc.

    To allow more features, the DVD Forum approved the DVD Video Recording format that uses UDF version 2.00 (this allows re-writeability, partial erasing etc all needed for DVD to be used like a VCR,) and the application format does not use Video_ts folders or vobs, but a new system altogether.

    Standard DVD players are unlikely to be able to read UDF 2.00 written discs (which is what the Pioneer 7000 DVD Recorder uses), and if they can they will not recognise the application format, which is a folder called DVD_RTAV and two files, the VR_MOVIE.VRO and a information file called VR_MANGR.

    Most new DVD players will handle a DVD-RW correctly, but if this DVD-RW was written to using the DVD Video Recording format, it will not know what to do with the files on it. New Pioneers (with the RW mark) have firmware that will work with the DVD Video Recording format. The RW is misleading, as it is not just confirming the the player plays DVD-RW discs, but also denotes it plays discs recorded in the new DVD Video Recording format. For example, the 444 will play a DVD-RW disc, but will not play a DVD-RW disc recorded on by the Pioneer 7000. The 545 shows the RW mark and will play the DVD-RW recorded in the Pioneer 7000. If you doubt me, go to www.pioneer.co.uk site and find the DVD player model 444, check the spec, it states, "Advanced Pioneer player, compatible with CD-R, CD-RW, DVD-R and DVD-RW ('video' mode)", notice it states Video mode. Check the specs on the 545 that has the RW mark it states, "Full DVD-RW compatibility, incl. 'VR' format ", which as I stated in my first thread stands for Video Recording. I do know what I am talking about ;)

    If you are authoring on a computer, of course you would use the DVD Video format for the best compatibility, and that is your only option as no authoring packages support creating a DVD Video Recording format disc.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  5. wellsi

    wellsi
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    PhilipL

    You are an Encylopaedia all by yourself!! (and from my readings on this very subject over the last few months, am very much inclined to agree with what you say).
    Pioneer has indeed gone out on a limb with DVD-RW, but has been approved by the Forum and has had it's format included in the (yet to be released) DVD-Multi players that will handle DVD-R, DVD-RW and DVD-RAM.


    Many people have learnt the logic behind CD-R and CD-RW and applied that understanding to DVD;unfortunately, you just can't do that... If anything, DVD-RAM is more like CD-RW...

    My two pence worth...

    Cheers,
     
  6. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi Welsi

    I have done my homework :)

    I agree the DVD-RW is out on a limb at the moment, with only the Pioneer 7000 supporting it to record to. Although the DVD Video Recording format is the exact same one used on DVD-RAM, just the physical discs are different, so there is some standardisation applied here somewhere by the DVD Forum.

    DVD Multi should tie things up quite nicely on the on the "-" side of formats, when we see it!

    Regards

    Philip
     
  7. silver_sam

    silver_sam
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    Hi PhilipL, Jon Weaver, Welsi

    Thanks for sharing your knowledge. The info given indeed is very helpful towards my understanding on the issues.

    Cheers.

    Silver_Sam.
    --------------
    Current MvsC2 team: Silver Sam, Sentinel, Omega Red.
     

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