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Crystalio vs ....

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by guyvert1, Sep 20, 2005.

  1. guyvert1

    guyvert1
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    Having just seen the specs (& price) on the New Crystalio I've always wondered how a unit like this would/will compare with the up/coming Playstation 3 ?.. The PS3 has some serious chipsets...

    Thoughts welcome....
     
  2. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    :confused: Not really sure what your meaning with this question.....?

    One is a video processor and one is a games machine, what exactly do you want comparing?

    Ryan
     
  3. guyvert1

    guyvert1
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    Well the ps3 has huge gfx processing power, surely with blu-ray it will be able to produce stunning pictures?
     
  4. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    The Crystalio II is a unit designed to take inputs from....

    DVD, Cable box, Freeview Tuner, Satellite receiver, vhs player, nes, snes, gamecube, psx, dreamcast, ps2, xbox, ps3, xbox360, D-VHS, HD-DVD, Blueray, HD Satellite etc. etc.

    from.....

    composite, s-video, RGBs, component, SDI, HD-SDI, DVI, HDMI, Firewire, RGsB, RGBhv

    And deinterlace and scale it.

    It also has a media player built in that you can rip your favourite HD stuff too, family photos, archive your home video etc. etc.



    The PS3 is a games console!

    Only comparison I can think of is they will both have a plug on them! ;)
     
  5. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    See, that's the kind of nonsense that puts me off.

    No matter how good the scaler, why would I want to pay for this stuff?

    StooMonster
     
  6. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    You don't have to, there are 2, one with the media stuff and one without.
     
  7. MattB

    MattB
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    The media player looks like a killer feature to me. If I understand it correctly, it effectively has a Snazio SZ1310 built in. I agree the WMP style indexing of all my content would be a turn-off.

    Matt.
     
  8. guyvert1

    guyvert1
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    Ok, maybe I'm barking (mad) up the wrong tree..

    I wasn't trying to compare the feature lists of the two, obv. diff machine built for diff. purpose, and for the 5th time, yes ps3 is a games console.

    What I was trying to point out was the ps3 has enough GFX (GPU) power to re-render any input to output to the display panel. (ie like HTPC)

    The PS3 GPU runs NVIDIA chips (RSX). The chip runs at 550MHz and is capable of rendering two 1080p signals simultaneously. It's touted to hit 1.8 TFLOPS knock out 100 billion shader operations per second and also has 128-bit precision for enhanced color definition.

    The standard resolution for the system is 1080p. Yes, as in 1920x1080 progressive, not interlaced. 1080i, 720p, 480p and 480i are all supported as well. Composite, S-Video (Why!) and component are all possible via AV cables, but for the best image quality possible the system also has two built-in HDMI connections!!

    Hence there must be scope for this unit to play with its source input..

    Not looking for any flaming, just healthy discussion!!!..
     
  9. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    But the PS3 plays games, the Crystalio II is a video processor, there is no comaprison.

    I agree if they added a load of inputs, some custom software and deinterlacing to the PS3 it would probably do very well, but they are not going to so you just can't compare the two.
     
  10. guyvert1

    guyvert1
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    "I wasn't trying to compare the feature lists of the two, obv. diff machine built for diff. purpose, and for the 5th time, yes ps3 is a games console."
     
  11. StooMonster

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    PS3 is also a BluRay player as well as games console.

    guyvert1, the PS3 will output fixed resolutions so if you screens accepts HD signals, but doesn't have enough physical pixels to display it, it will downscale the image. Whereare the Crystalio can scale video to any physical pixel resolution.

    If one has a screen of say 1366x768 pixels and a PS3 playing BluRay movies at 1080i, there could still be a place for dedicated external scaler because it will do a better job than the one built into the screen.

    StooMonster
     
  12. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Or are you asking if PS3 playing DVD will produce better results scaled to 1080i than an external scaling upscaling a DVD player to same resolution?

    StooMonster
     
  13. guyvert1

    guyvert1
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    A bit of both really..

    It wouldn't take much coding to be able to scale an image on the ps3 to a given resolution, and my main point being that how good is the GPU's in the Crystalio compared to the raw power of the GPU in the PS3?

    Does anyone have the tech specs of the chipsets in the Crystalio for comparison?
     
  14. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    With scalers it is all about one chip, and how good the inputs/outputs are, raw processing doesn't really come into it. Some of the best processors run on 500mhz cpu's.

    Have a read on here for info on whay makes the Crystalio II tick.

    http://www.gennum.com/ip/vxp_technology.html
     
  15. Thunder

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    Gizlaroc is correct. Quoting chip A has x level of processing power and chip B has y level of processing power usually has only a limited effect on the end result. Implementation, algorithms used, co processing electronics, stable power supplies etc generally have a much greater effect on the final performance of a piece of equipment :lesson: Dont be fooled by marketing hype of figures :thumbsup: My Tag DVD player uses a chipset that is long discontiued but the quality of its analogue component video output is still only matched by a handfull of other players ;)
     
  16. Welwynnick

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    This has been quite a disappointing thread considering the calibre of the contributors. Guyvert1 had a good discussion point, but only StooMonster seems to have realised it. We have been led to believe that a BD player will be around £1k next year, and the next generation of 1TFLOP or whatever video processors will be even more than that. But the PS3 should be able to play a BD on a 1080p display - so how well will it do it? I've no idea, but it's a great question to ask, and I can't wait to find out. Considering that it's only going to cost around £400 (?) AND you get a great games machine thrown in for free, it's worth buying one just to find out. Roll on next year.

    regards, Nick
     
  17. guyvert1

    guyvert1
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    At least someone looks past the pretentious issues of daring to question the norm!

    What alot of people forget is units like the Crystalio are made for a very specialised market and can therefore 'afford' to price/market in that segment, whereas units like the PS3 have to compete in the mass market, often hiding the fact the the parts far outweigh the whole product!..

    I can understand the bespoke components used in the scaler are going to be high quality etc, they should be, but I'm more interested in how the chipsets work, is it just a gfx chipset with hardcoded routines for all the features.. Something that can maybe emulated with assembly code on the PS3..

    Yes, you may be thinking, why the hell are you bothered, but like the oppo dvd player recently released, unless people look into the inards, you'll never know!!!
     
  18. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    Do you both use a PS2 for video playback at the moment?

    Seriously, I must be missing something here, I still don't see how you can compare the two?
     
  19. NicolasB

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    You are indeed missing something. :)


    1) The PS2 is hopelessly lacking in on-board processing power and memory. The jump between the processing capability of a PS2 and that of a PS3 is vastly much greater than the gap between the processing needed to play MPEG2 video on DVD and that needed to play Hi-Def MPEG4 video off BluRay. The PS2 can barely cope with DVDs. The PS3 probably won't even break a sweat with Hi-Def 1080p.


    2) The other thing that severely limits DVD output quality is that DVD player output is virtually always analogue. This means that issues like noise, interference, the quality of the video DACs, various format-conversion issues, quality of connectors and cables, etc. all make a big difference to output quality.

    But with Hi-Def disc players, the output will always be digital. This means that virtually all of the factors that make one DVD player produce better quality video than another will simply vanish. Consider, for example, how good the video is from one of those Philips players with an SDI output. It's superior to the analogue output of players costing ten times as much. An all-digital chain (even if it is HDMI rather than SDI) will very much level the playing field.


    3) Although BluRay discs are new, the video codecs that they use (MPEG4) are not new. DVD players were still something of a novelty when the PS2 was launched, and the best decoding algorithms had yet to be developed. With the PS3 we already know a great deal about decoding MPEG4, so we're starting farther down the road this time.


    Will the PS3 be able to match the output of a good-quality dedicated video processor/scaler? Highly unlikely. Will it be able to match the quality of other BluRay disc players? Perhaps not, but I think it would be very unwise to assume that it won't. Certainly making analogies with the PS2 and DVDs is not valid.
     
  20. JimmytheSaint

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    Agreed. In reality, we will not know how the PS3 Blueray implementation of 1080P will look, until it is released (probably at the end of 2006, beginning of 2007 here in the UK).
    The Crystalio II, however, is being released in the next few months and can be continually 'upgraded' with various firmwares. Not sure about software implementation upgrades on the PS3.
    If, for arguments sake, we imagine the PS3 and Crystalio were being released simultaneously, how many of you exactly, have a native 1080P display?
     
  21. Thunder

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    Yours will mate :rotfl: Long time no speak Yas :)
     
  22. Welwynnick

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    Now that's more like it. I hadn't considered this very much before, but I think there is some mileage in it. A lot of the cost in the Crystalio 2 (or RadianceXT or whatever) will come from the capability to accept any video input, process it, and generate any video output. The PS3 will obviously not attempt such flexibility. The other difference is that PS3 will be targetted at a mass market. This means that they can spend a lot of money up front to make even quite small savings in per-unit cost, and the substantial development costs can be amortised over a very large number of units.

    I had assumed that next year I would simply get a Sky HD box, a BD player, an HQV processor and a 1080p crt or dlp or sxrd display. Now I'm not so sure. We would expect that a HDDVDP/BDP + Crystalio/Radiance would give the best possible picture, but what if it was close? If there is no analogue signal processing anywhere, and if there is no need to consider anything other than 1080 resolution, then perhaps the outcome is not that clear.

    Of course, if you also want to run Sky SD, Sky HD and DVD into a 1080 display, then a pricey scaler comes back into the picture, but it might have a big financial hurdle to overcome if you have already waited to get a PS3 first.

    Nick
     
  23. Thunder

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    Well I think I will be stickin with basic old 720p/768p for a while :eek: Although Lumagen are working on 1080i deinterlacing for the HDP that I own my Barco wont resolve it in 16:9 :rolleyes:
     
  24. gizlaroc

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    I will be buying a scaler for taking a sdi from DVD, hopefully hd-sdi from SkyHD or hdmi, and then hd-sdi or maybe hdmi from my disc player (whether it be a dedicated unit or a PS3) and then letting it do per pixel deinterlacing and control over the image and giving my panel its native rate.

    As I say I don't get the comparison between the crystalio II and the PS3?!
    I may end up using them together, but one will not replace the other.

    A comparison between a PS3 and a dedicated blu-ray player I do get, but these are two diffeerent things.
     
  25. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    I meant to put......

    Do you both use a PS2 for video processing at the moment?
     
  26. Welwynnick

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    I think the issue is that a BD player will output 1080i, and a PS3, 1080p. Of course, given what has happened to the DVD player market, we will inevitably see progressive output BD players. But that's not the same as 1080p DVD players, as they only have to do SD de-interlacing. Proper HD de-interlacing is the big deal, and that is what the big ticket processors, and small ticket PS3, will do.
     
  27. StooMonster

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    Well the PS3's nVidia GPU contains 'PureVideo' http://www.nvidia.com/page/purevideo.html which is a pretty powerful deinterlacer and scaler. Interlacing is either Motion Estimating / Spatial-Temporal with usual 3:2 and 2:2 pulldown, and scaling is 4-tap horizontal and 5-tap vertical.

    Unfortunately the link on nVidia site is about last generation version of this functionality, and they haven't updated it yet.

    However, PureVideo will only work for MPEG2 although MPEG2-HD, and WMV-HD and does do MPEG4 (H.264); in a PS3 one can assume MPEG4 decoding will be done by the Cell processor.

    ATi's next gen chip, a variant of which is being used in Xbox 360, has hardware H.264 decoding. Unfortunately Xbox 360 won't have a BluRay drive and will only have a regular DVD at launch, however it is planned to have HD-DVD drive a.s.a.p.

    Then one could wonder, what kind of video (DVD and HD-DVD) output will one get out of Xbox 360 at 720p/1080i compared to dedicated scaler?

    StooMonster
     
  28. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    What makes you think PS3 will output BD content at 1080p and not 1080i?

    Just because it can output two displays at 1920x1080@60Hz doesn't mean it will deinterlace 1080i content.

    StooMonster
     
  29. Welwynnick

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    I think you pretty much answered that one yourself!

    Nick
     
  30. NicolasB

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    I have. My Dell 2405FPW monitor. Costs about £650 on eBay. 1920x1200 native. Loads of people have them.

    My opinion is still that the PS3 may be a very good Hi-Def disc player, but that is unlikely to be any better at scaling/video processing than any current DVD player is, and possibly not even that.
     

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