1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Crystalio VPS-2300 or LumagenHDP for Live Sports on H78

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by toni_montana, Aug 31, 2005.

  1. toni_montana

    toni_montana
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have an H78 projector on an 8ft screen and am looking for a scaler to accompany it. I will mainly be watching region 2 DVDs and football on Sky Sports.

    Would I be better with the Crystalio VPS-2300 or the Lumagen HDP?

    I hear there are some issues with the Lumagen with video deinterlacing. How noticeable will this be when watching the footie?
     
  2. David PluggedIn

    David PluggedIn
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2003
    Messages:
    544
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    Hi Toni

    I cannot comment on the Lumagen, I am sure Gordon or a Lumagen user will be around shortly to give you the lowdown there...

    What I can say about the Crystalio is that the PAL performance is first rate, and watching football the video deinterlacing is solid, nice, jaggie free pitch markings , no combing or slowdown issues, even when captions are on screen.

    Crystalio has a couple of settings that allow you to tune how it detects film versus video (a bias control and a detection window setting). Once you have set those up then you never need to touch it again. In my home system with Sky SDI I never manually adjust the video/film mode, Crystalio just gets on with it, and its seamless even through advert breaks and/or fast forwards with Sky+ etc..

    hope that helps
     
  3. Carl Ed

    Carl Ed
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    54
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    I've found the SiI-504 to be practically unwatchable with interlaced sport. Horrible jaggies.

    I'd advise you to get something that uses either an DCDi, VXP, or HQV chip.
     
  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Hello Tony,

    Always intesrests me to hear about folk claiming that the Lumagens have issues with video de-interlacing. I can only guess where these rumours are started......

    The Lumagen products use SIL504 chipset for de-interlacing standard def material. That chipset uses per pixel motion adaptive de-interlacing method. It doesn't have dcdi or edge smoothing algorithms like the F chip or the forthcoming algo's in the Gennum or HQV chipsets. The Lumagen implimentation of this chipset doesn't suffer slow down or combing. In fact, with the latest genlocked frmware it is extremely stable, without any judder or dropped frame issues.
    Here is a quote from a user on the firmare from when they added genlock

    "My initial impressions of 072305 are very, very good indeed. All timing jitter and frame dropping seems to be eradicated. Images appear more stable, deeper and more solid. To say that I am delighted would be an understatement. I'll continue to monitor but so far, outstanding! "

    Some folk like DCDi and its edge smoothing and others don't. The ideal would be to have the performance benefits of both the F chip and the Sl chip...and that's where the HQV style devices come in.

    Depending on what distance you sit from your display you may not even notice the DCDi smoothing. Large scale image distortion like gamma errors, colour errors, banding, motion artefacts can be obvious at much larger distances. As usual I suggest you try to see both with your display set up correctly as there are pro's and cons to both.

    All the best,

    Gordon
     
  5. toni_montana

    toni_montana
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Carl, can I ask which SIL-504 machine you seen?

    Gordon, The video deinterlacing on the Lumagen seems to be an issue thats crept up on both AV and AVS forums. Especially around sports programming. These stories must have come from somewhere. DO you think that the Crystalio is superior in this area?

    its not easy to organise a demo of both units. Where could I arrange this from?
     
  6. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Many of the issues folk have talked about in the past were related to beta products and not current firmware. The only "issue" with the de-interlacing is whether you like the method used by the SIL504 for carrying out de-interlacing of material originally recorded with a video camera. There are those who do not...CARL for example.

    You need to decide for yourself whether the benefits of the other performance enhancing features of any given product outway other issues it may have.

    Gordon
     
  7. toni_montana

    toni_montana
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Gordon, can we expect Lumagen to improve their video deinterlacing by a great amount in the near future or are they restricted by the hardware they use (SIL504).

    Addionally, what would you say are the benefits of the Lumagen over the Crystalio if it is inferior in the video deinterlacing aspect?
     
  8. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,011
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +2,808
    Toni,

    The actual method of de-interlacing SD is unable to be changed from the code in the SIL504. The FPGA in the Lumagens that runs their proprietry code can be used for doing all sorts of stuff. They have said that once they have completed some other features they will look at how much processing space is left. Then they will take a view on how best to utilise this. Some folk have asked for POST process edge smoothing. They have not confirmed whether that will be possible or even whether they would feel it a good use of the processing capabilities.

    The De-interlacing of HD is done in Lumagens FPGA and that is currently being worked on and improved.

    On your last sentence.....I have not said that the Lumagen has inferior video de-interlacing to the Crystalio.

    I am not going to get involved in a tit for tat argument about whose product does this or does that. The relative features of both units are pretty well documented I think. If you have specific questions about the feature set of Lumagen products then I'm happy to oblige.

    Gordon
     
  9. Carl Ed

    Carl Ed
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    54
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have seen several Denon DVD players that used the chip, and the occational iScan. Never seen a Lumagen, as they're pretty rare down this part of the world.

    It should be noted that I'm not saying the SiI-504 is a bad deinterlacer per se, however, in my opinion if you're paying the big bucks for a scaler, and intend to watch interlaced material on it, then the lack of diagonal interpolation is unacceptable. You may not find it bothering, in which case your mileage will vary.
     
  10. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    when I demonstrated all the technologies at an event a while ago, including F and 504, then most prefered 504. 150 odd people through the door.

    It is my choice of these deinterlacers. It is not perfect but it is a quality implementation.
     
  11. Godfather

    Godfather
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2001
    Messages:
    2,223
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Edinburgh
    Ratings:
    +224
    Have you seen the Crystalio Nic?
     
  12. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    I've seen both the Lumagen and the Crystalio, but my comments were more generic in nature looking at the raw chipsets in general. At the event neither were available but the chips they use were.
     
  13. toni_montana

    toni_montana
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    ANybody done a side by side comparison of these 2 units and can give their opinion on each?

    Ive heard from a few people (even thos who deal in both units) that the video picture on the Crystalio is very strikingly better than the Lumagen, although they also said it may be a matter of taste in terms of the way you like the image.

    However, some have also said the Crystalio is a bit soft.
     
  14. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,747
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +97
    toni, if you can hold out for a few months the Crystalio II will be out. This should be better than the current crop of scalers you are looking at and somewhat more 'future proof'.
    However, side by side comparisons will clearly show the Faroujda chipsets have an advantage over the Sil 504 in video deinterlacing, irrespective what anyone here tells you, in part due to it's diagonal algorithm implementation. I have no agendas and no affiliation to either product and did a number of tests, even recently and still the Crystalio performed better on video and PAL material. On film based NTSC material the Sil 504 is probably a little sharper, but if it's primarily for tv here then it's a simple choice. :)
    The Crystalio uses the F2300 and not the F2310 (which apparently exhibits macroblocking artifacts).
    Best thing to do would be to get each unit and demo it in your current setup, rather than take my word for it.
    Good luck! :D
     
  15. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    There is no clear winner in the futile F vs SIL game, looking at single characteristics like edge smoothness is a recipe for a wrong decision (I OWN >6 F based products). They perform differently. These are expensive devices and you do not want to make the wrong decision. The choice at the moment is Cystalio1 and Lumagen. Both have new models in the wings, both are NOT here currently and we have therefore NO idea as to their quality. Any shootout need to be be done NOW as the Lumagen has only just come out of beta testing, and added some of their killer features in the last months only. Only you can do that Toni.
     
  16. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    Being able to play film without 60Hz judder or PAL speedup is a huge advantage for the Lumagen. On the video side, both can be caught out doing the wrong thing, the Crystallio is smoother with some sacrifice in detail compared to the Lumagen. Overall if I had the choice I might well have gone for the film capabilities of the Lumagen and the Crystallio for video, but as I don't have that choice I went for the Lumagen.
     
  17. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,785
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +667
    But the Crystalio does not suffer from this at all, and one of the reasons I swapped over.
    My main problem with the Lumagen was the way it handled most TV, however that now seems to be sorted out reading the reports.
    They are both great products and I don't think you would be disapointed with either.
     
  18. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    Excellent summary Jeff, my thoughts as well. Two good products.
     
  19. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    There is nothing that either the Cristalio or the Lumagen can do about PAL speedup. For R1 DVD's if they are played at 60Hz you do get judder, with the Crystalio there isn't anything you can do about it. With the Lumagen HDP you can run 48 or 72Hz so you get the smoothness of PAL without speedup. Some DLP's (I think the H78 is one of them) can run run 48Hz very well. If Judder doesn't bother you at all then the Crystalio might be the better choice especially at a lower price, although if you intend to get an ISF done remember that the Lumagen does have 11 point parametric gray scale calibration.
     
  20. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    I know where you are coming with this, and I had not complaints here either, but a look at Genlock on the Lumagen is quite an eye opener. I was shocked the difference is did make when I saw it. The Lumagen today is VERY different from 9 months ago.
     
  21. toni_montana

    toni_montana
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    WHat benefit will the 11 point gray scale calibration provide? Would you think you would get a big difference between the 2 when they were both ISF calibrated?
     
  22. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    Toni it depends on the projector, the more acurate it is the less of a benefit. A top of the range Sim2 or Marantz might not be much a benefit, but on a H78 it might well be a worthwhile feature.
     
  23. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    Proper grey scale tracking is one of the most important aspects of a quality picture, this 11 point calibration is pretty revolutionary in my book. I suspect many others will follow. This with genlock and the possible HD deinterlacing make this an interesting prospect.

    Crystalio is been sold cheaply at the moment so it makes it great value. Does anyone know if they are ending the model (in favour of the 11 / 11 pro?) and if this signals the end of softwae updates for this machine? (If it actually needs any in the future. ) v4, 4.02 seem pretty stable.
     
  24. Carl Ed

    Carl Ed
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    Messages:
    54
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    According to Atman they intend to keep the old Crystalio I around as a mid-level product (or something to that affect), and keep updating the firmware as needed (although major updates are probably unlikely). Most of their development efforts are going into the Crystalio II, rather than the original Crystalio and Plasma Enhancers now, and rightly so, I guess.
     
  25. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    Thats good news then, pleased to hear that.
     
  26. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,785
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +667
    You have lost me a bit there.

    Why would you run 59.94 at 60.00hz?

    What judder?

    The Crystalio does not have any judder at all, but some of the timings need tweaking which is a pain in the arse, for true Pal you need to use 50.16, for 48Hz I use 48.08, 59.94 is 60.13 and 72hz is 72.18.

    50.16 with my Panasonic is superb, never a dropped frame and and very, very analogue like.

    I know the Faroudja chipset is out with their timings slightly and also the Panny plasmas seem to be out .05, so it is a real chore working out what is exactly correct, but once done it is superb.
     
  27. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    When I say 60Hz, I really mean 59.94. Judder is caused by the 3:2 sequence. It's impossible to remove this by tweaking timings slightly. For 48Hz (47.952) the Crystalio has no way of maintaining a 2:2 sequence so stutter will occur. So to recap, judder is caused by 3:2, stutter is caused by bad timings or by trying to do 48 or 72Hz without genlock or reclock technology.
     
  28. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,785
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +667
    Oh I see. I will have to try 48 again tonight and check out how often/if it looses the 2:2 sequence.

    I thought that Genlocking was on the original Lumagens? Was it only added later for the current generation?
     
  29. Godfather

    Godfather
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2001
    Messages:
    2,223
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Edinburgh
    Ratings:
    +224
    I see 3:2 judder on pans all the time but it doesn't really bother me.
     
  30. Jeff

    Jeff
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    5,489
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Basingstoke
    Ratings:
    +256
    Genlock is only on the HDP's and has only been working for the last month or so.
     

Share This Page

Loading...