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CRT TVs, progressive scan and flicker

Discussion in 'TVs' started by FlimsyFeet, Oct 6, 2005.

  1. FlimsyFeet

    FlimsyFeet
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    Extract from the manual for my Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD recorder:

    [​IMG]

    What's this mean exactly? I played a DVD in progressive scan mode on the Toshiba 36ZP46, and yes, it did flicker. Is it specifc to the Panasonic, or a general issue with all CRT TVs in progresive scan mode?
     
  2. RohanM

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    I have the same issue on my Panny PD30 CRT and Panny E65 recorder, i.e. flicker on prog scan.

    Seriously miffed about it at the time, but the picture is better via the component outputs anyway (plus there is no white lines/interference that the PD30 has via RGB inputs)...
     
  3. Kalos Geros

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    Ouch, this is a big turn if it's true...I am scheming to combine a prog scan DVD player with a prog scan CRT, but if flicker is a usual occurance on all prog scan TVs being fed prog video then there is no quality leap compared to interlaced SCART RGB...unless "flicker" mentioned above refers to wide-area flicker as result of low refresh...we all know that a 100Hz TV can't run at 100Hz but at 50Hz when in progressive mode...puzzling indeed... :eek:
     
  4. TankTopLover

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    Well i have a 32ZP48 and mine does not flicker at all in progressive scan mode??

    I wear glasses too so i notice every little detail and it looks awesome.Strange as i have heard other ZP48 users say it flickers :confused:
     
  5. per-Sony-fied

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    Panasonic PD50 flickers using the progressive mode but this is akin to 50Hz flicker which I think you could get used to since picture generally seems of better clarity.

    However with the PD50 I'd use component i/p for progressive signal anyway as this produes a non flicker picture and improved quality.
     
  6. anephric

    anephric
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    I get a fair bit of flicker in PAL prog with my 36ZP38 and DMRE85. Mostly noticeable in static menus and stills galleries etc.
     
  7. Kalos Geros

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    So it IS the 50Hz wide-area flicker you're all mentioning...I remember working on an Amiga 4000 using 50Hz non-interlaced and I believe I have strained my eyelid muscles for good. 60Hz (NTSC) is better, on the limit of being good on the eyes...hmm, an EDTV plasma is looking even better now...
     
  8. the mechanic

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    I am in the same boat as stuart (32zp48 AND wear glasses), and can catergorically state I see NO flicker at all.

    Graham.
     
  9. anephric

    anephric
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    ^ Have you got the R2 of eXistenZ? Check out the menus on that in PAL prog - flicker city on my 36ZP38. If I turn off progressive on the player and watch it in the 36ZP38's own pseudo-prog 50hz "Progressive" mode (where the tv's deinterlacing) I don't get half as much flicker.
     
  10. TankTopLover

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    Even if it did flicker on menus i wouldnt care as i tend to watch the actual film rather than the menus :rolleyes:
     
  11. anephric

    anephric
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    I enjoy watching menus. They're lots of fun. Sometimes I watch them for hours.
     
  12. TankTopLover

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    You know i tried it today just to see whats so good and low and behold i was glued for hours!

    Forget films..watch menus they are so entertaining! :rolleyes:
     
  13. niceguy235uk

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    Sorry, no flicker here. Sky box through AV1 via scart, DVD through component. Stunning picture whatever you throw at it IMO.
     
  14. FlimsyFeet

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    The DVD I was watching when I noticed the flicker was NTSC. It was noticeable in bright areas of sky in the top half of the picture. I wear glasses, too. I imagine that the flicker is more noticeable on 36" TVs than 32" models.

    However, looking at the scrolling end credits (which were orange on black) the advantage of prog. scan is clear.

    I've not tried setting the player to non-progressive and using the progressive scan mode on the TV. I've also not tried it with PAL DVDs either. I think I need to do some tests
     
  15. per-Sony-fied

    per-Sony-fied
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    I must be missing something then as I'd say the Panny picture is far from stunning or streets ahead of other TV's (actually behind the Tosh ZP48 in many ways) I've seen including my old Sony 28FX60U which it replaces. It leads in many areas over the Sony but not to a stunning degree.

    Freeview on some channels look rather terrible imo. Component agreeably pushes the set a step forward in quality and produces some fine pictures on some DVD's.

    As for flicker using progreesive mode via scart/analogue certainly shows on my set. Maybe I'm more susceptable to the 50Hz flicker than you.
     
  16. Icosphere

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    I own a Toshiba 36ZP38B which is connected up with a Sony DVD player that has component video output. I connect both together using a component video cable and when watching DVDs and the TV set to Progressive Scan mode, I see flickering! :mad: This also happens when playing progressive scan games on my PS2 which is also connected up using component video. What's going on? I thought Component Video / Progressive scan offer the best picture so far except for HDMI which offers the best quality but mainly found in projectors rather than CRTs.
     
  17. gearguy

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    RGB and component are indistinguishable from eachother because the conversion from RGB to YUV and back is just a digital alothgram. =)
    There is some sort of mass belief in the world that RGB doesn't do prog scan; this is bull. It does.
     
  18. Slimchandi

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    This most likely is due to the fact that the main delivery method of RGB in home cinema (via Scart) is almost always non-progessive. When the RGB to YUV comparison is made, it usually consists of a progressive scan argument.
     
  19. Kalos Geros

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    Component is just a way of compressing RGB to save bandwidth...it needs to be converted back into RGB for display (even on plasmas and LCDs via HDMI/DVI it is re-colorspaced into RGB, only in digital realm exclusively...since most content are stored in component form (Betacam SP, Digital Betacam, DVD etc) it is best to convert to RGB as late as possible, thus it IS marginally (but I'm not sure if obviously) better to send the signal in component form to the set because the only conversion was to analog but not to another colorspace...with SCART connection both D/A and colorspace conversions take place prior to sending the signal to TV...I have bought an Amstrad DVD player for both my woprk and my mum that sends progressive both through SCART and component (even has a VGA mode so you can build or buy a SCART to SubD adapter and connect progressively to your PC monitor...SCART is just a dumb lead, what happens at the source and receiving ends is what matters...I am only not sure whether prog scan TVs (CRT, Plasma, LCD) can take progressive via SCART but that is only a queston of implementation not inability...

    here are the best solutions for connection:

    Interlaced RGB DVD - Interlaced CRT = SCART RGB lead
    Interlaced component/RGB DVD - Interlaced CRT = component lead (because the colorspace conversion happens latest in the chain - just prior to display)
    Progressive scan DVD - Progressive scan CRT/Plasma/LCD = component lead (all progressive operations are performed in digital realm in component colorspace in the DVD player)
    Progressive scan HDMI/DVI DVD - Plasma /LCD = HDMI/DVI (all digital, no D/A conversion, pure BLISS)

    I stand corrected of course...
     
  20. gearguy

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    But then again, RGB voltages are so high compaired to other formats, the largest amount of signle degredation you could expect is an unoticable decrease in brightness.
    I purchased a 1.00 RGB scart lead from a thrift shop and the only real problem with it is a slight lack of contrast; most RGB cables give a presentable image even cheapo ones, oxygen free and gold plating just help the quality last a good bit longer and improve overall image contrast and stability.
    The main problem is these days TVs digitize the analogue RGB signle then reconvert it back to analogue before display which is an utterley useless and pointless process as the 'enhancements' the processing makes ususally just make the image look like ass compaired to the original input.
     
  21. Kalos Geros

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    Yes, I wonder even whether the field that is displayed twice in 100Hz mode is shown native during the first scan and taken from framestore (deviated somewhat from original) the second scan or the logic waits to draw just the stored field twice in 100Hz mode...the second verson seems more true since mixing fields of different quality may cause even worse disaster...if quality RGB is badly affected by this, imagine what stunning "wonders" happen to a poor aerial composite signal...
     
  22. gearguy

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    don't forget the nifty hue and saturation adjustments processors like to make! :rotfl:
     
  23. Kalos Geros

    Kalos Geros
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    :rotfl:

    BTW I have stumbled across this: PHILIPS 100Hz and other gimmicks explained

    A very interesting read, explains a lot...the guys from Philips are not afraid to share...
     
  24. gearguy

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    I actually hate motion interpolation when they overdo it. I feel that the judder in film actually helps make the movie more dramatic.
    Also what about it screwing up? When interpolation screws up... things get bad.. very bad :eek:
     
  25. Kalos Geros

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    I have seen Philips natural motion in action (I noticed it because the DVD movie that ran on it looked like video with smooth pans, so I spent some time looking for problems (cca 5 minutes) and none occured, so I was rather impressed...I doubt this was implemented in Samsung Z308 with such quality (someone on another thread said that in games from a console the movement was blurred on Z308, maybe he needs to change the settings with Natural Scan) anyway it is all well explained on Philips' website and is not a mystery to me anymore...I know what to look at now and how to hard-test whichever TV I choose to try before I buy...

    I have however noted that Philips don't seem to do progressive scan in their CRT sets but rather achieve flicker-free images with 100Hz digital scan technology and natural motion...maybe the prog scan thing is just a big hype after all...
     
  26. per-Sony-fied

    per-Sony-fied
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    Surely the idea behind progressive scan is to remove those jagged edges on objects you would otherwise see on DVD discs?
     
  27. per-Sony-fied

    per-Sony-fied
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    It is? Try telling that to my eyes and TV.

    There is some sort of mass belief in the world that RGB doesn't do prog scan; this is bull. It does.[/QUOTE]

    But is there a product that supports RGB progressive out? There's few TV's that support progressive too. Certainly of the CRT variety.
     
  28. gearguy

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    But is there a product that supports RGB progressive out? There's few TV's that support progressive too. Certainly of the CRT variety.[/QUOTE]

    Technically; component is worse if it's of the compressed varietey (DVD) as each blue pixel is bigger than each red pixel and each red pixel is bigger than each green pixel with some black and white matrixed in to make it appear smooth. But converting from component to RGB will not improve the quality.

    Uncompressed component and RGB are exactly the same, the image is just transmitted in different components.


    You know that monitor you're stairing into right now?

    RGB :hiya:

    If RGB looks worse than component then chances are it is being digitally buffered and 'enhanced'.
     
  29. gearguy

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    Sticking it up to 100Hz also removes jaggies but does not solve the problem of interlaced feilds for video footage.

    Do you know that all TVs support progresive scan?
    Just not at full redsolution; if you feed a 320*240 progressive signal to any tv it can usually display it because it syncs in at 15.7khz.

    It's the frequency that counts, and the frequency of standard TV RGB is 15.7Khz
    So any signal that comes at 15.7khz can be displayed on a TV provided it's not higher res than the tv screen lol!

    Progressive scan 480p is 31khz
     
  30. Kalos Geros

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    The Amstrad DVD I was talking about previously can output progressive RGB via SCART, it doesn't blank it curiously, like many others...About every PC with a TV-out equiped gfx card can via VGA SubD (which you convert to SCART with a simple adapter), you just need to set the desktop to 720x576 50Hz or 60 Hz...
     

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