crossover frequencies

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Paul brewin, Jan 22, 2018.


    1. Paul brewin

      Paul brewin
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      can anyone give me advice on crossover frequencies on monitor audio bronze 2 front b2 centre ,back are bronze fx ,yamaha rx_a870 ,it sets them at 40hz ,is this to low ,and would this av reciever be better patnered with more expensive speakers,say monitor audio bronze 6 at the fronts,room size is 12ft*15ft i know this is alot,please give advice on anything ,as im new to all this
       
    2. dante01

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      It is recommended that you set all speakers as being SMALL irrespective of their physical size or frequency handling abilities. It is also suggested you set crossovers no lower than 80Hz even if the speakers are rated to be able to handle lower frequencies. The reasoning behind this is typified here:



      There is some room for improvement as far as the speakers are concerned, but I'm using MA Bronze (BX) with a higher tier receiver than the one you've mentioned without adverse results.

      There'd be no real advantage to using the Bronze 6 speakers over the smaller cabinets you are already using. The lower frequencies are being directed to your sub so the lower frequency handling abilities of the floorstanders would be of little if any benefit to you. The drives units associated with the upper frequencies are the same on both the Bronze 6 and the Bronze 2 speakers. Floorstanders are also more demanding when it comes to placement and they do not behave well in smaller rooms or if in close proximity to walls and or furnishings.

      Rule of thumb suggests that you spend at least double the recommended retail price of a receiver on a 5.1 speaker setup to be used with it. The upper limit would be 3 times the cost of the receiver. Spend more than this and it is suggested that you are spending more than is required to get the optimum performance from that receiver.
       
      Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
    3. Paul brewin

      Paul brewin
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      My subwoofer is wharfedale diamond sw150, any advice on upgrade for fronts and subwoofers, looked at 2* monitor audio w10, subs, and monitor audio silver 100, for front, or any consideration would be good
       
    4. Paul brewin

      Paul brewin
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      I've set them small, and at 80hz
       
    5. dante01

      dante01
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      Maybe look at the BK P12-300SB or the XXLS400 as being better and more affordable subwoofer options:
      Sub Woofers - Sub Bass - Subwoofer

      The sub doesn't need to be the same make as your other speakers.

      Maybe also consider something like Monitor Audio Apex speakers plus the proprietary stands for the front. THey also do a matching center within the Apex range or you can use another A10 speaker for the centre:

      Apex | Hi-Fi Speakers | Monitor Audio

      The Q Acoustics Concept range is also worth consideration. THese are excellent speakers at a very affordable price. Again, buy the proprietory stands if going with the Concept 20 bookcase cabinets. These speakers are built using a very special anti resonance construction which is negated if you don't use the proprietary stands to mount them on.
       
      Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
    6. Paul brewin

      Paul brewin
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      My amp cost £1000,so looks like I'm going to have to spend £2000-£3000. On a 5.1system
       
    7. Rambles

      Rambles
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      What AVR do you have and what is it that you are not happy with in your current system?
       
    8. Paul brewin

      Paul brewin
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      Yamaha RX-A870 7.2,, I upgraded from, yamaha rx-v775, and q acoustics 2020i, still have wharfedale diamond sw150 sub,. I thought I was going to get so much more, I'm OK to spend £650. On fronts and back, and 2*subs, about £1000, but will me spending another £2500 get me an amazing sound
       
    9. Paul brewin

      Paul brewin
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      The week link, I think is the subs, which I don't have a clue about, up what upgrade path for them. I thought it was better to keep the sub same make as the speaker company
       
    10. Paul brewin

      Paul brewin
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      Monitor audio bronze 2
       
    11. Rambles

      Rambles
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      Okay. One step at a time!

      There are a number of things that you might be able to do to improve the sound, without having to spend £2k to £3k on speakers.

      Your amp and speakers are decent, so they should sound sound reasonable. Your subwoofer may be the weak link, but even so, it shouldn't sound awful.

      What is your room like, and how have you got everything positioned. Do you want to post up a few pictures and see if we can advise on positioning tweaks that might help with the sound?

      What are you listening to on the system, eg blu rays, tv, music? Does it all sound disappointing, or do some things sound better than others?
       
    12. Paul brewin

      Paul brewin
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      4k Blu-ray sounds amazing, music average, room is 12ft x 15ft,
       
    13. Paul brewin

      Paul brewin
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    14. Paul brewin

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    15. Paul brewin

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    16. Paul brewin

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    17. Paul brewin

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    18. Paul brewin

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    19. Paul brewin

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    20. Paul brewin

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    21. Rambles

      Rambles
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      Good job, the room looks great!

      The 5 main speakers look very well positioned, maybe the sub would sound better if it wasn't in the corner, or if it has to go in the corner you could try it pointing in different directions to see if that helps. Are you eq'ing it with your AVR, and does your AVR give you any of the curve details?

      Replacing the subwoofer won't help if it is the room or the placement that is causing the problems. You can get anti-modes that are separate equalisers just for subs, or even isolation platforms that might help. I am not an expert on subs, so maybe someone else will come along to advise a bit more on that, or you could ask in the separate subwoofer forums.

      Now the fact that 4K Blu Ray sounds amazing is excellent news :) I think that means that your system is functioning well, when it is being fed a good high quality source.

      With regard to music not sounding so good, I am afraid that is usual for AVR's. There are a plethora of threads on here with people saying the same thing. And the best way to improve that is to use a separate integrated amplifier for music. You can connect it to your AVR via the front pre-outs, and if you use an integrated amp that has a HT bypass function, it will act as a power amp in that mode, so will give your AVR a bit of a boost at the same time.

      Your front speakers will be connected to the integrated amplifier, and you use that as a stand alone amp for music purposes, connecting your music sources directly to the integrated amp. The AVR remains switched off. Then when using your AVR, you have the integrated amp powering the front left and right speakers, so the AVR then powers the other three.
       
    22. gibbsy

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      Room looks good positional wise. As Rambles says poor music performance may come down to the AVR and possibly the source. The centre is, to me, a little too low. Could you angle it more upwards using isolation pads? Sub again as Rambles said could be improved by better positioning away from the corner. If that is not possible then perhaps of the RELs, T5i or T7i may be better as these are engineered to perform in a corner.
       
    23. stewjoy

      stewjoy
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      I agree with what’s been said ,only difference is I have a bk xls 400 and that’s in the corner but I use an antimode and I think it’s brilliant, maybe look at that situation .
       
    24. mindforge

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      Any tips for where to get isolation pads for to angle upwards? The tallest centre speaker stand j could find was 600mm and that's about 200mm off ear level.
       
    25. gibbsy

      gibbsy
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      I think @Rambles uses, or has used some. My cabinet mounted centre has the tweeter at 750mm high so I just use 8mm Fisual isolation feet. Also make sure the front of the centre is proud of the shelf edge to avoid reflection. Can't quite tell from the photo so apologies if it is.
      Fisual Round Adhesive Isolation Pads Pack of 4 - System Tweaks - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists
       
    26. Abacus

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      It depends on whether you want it just for movies or stereo music as well.

      If just for movies, 80Hz is fine as that it what most movie soundtracks are set for, (Set all other speakers to small) as the sub is a separate channel.

      For stereo music, set the the front speakers to full range and set the sub to fill in the very lowest notes, (It fills in where the speaker bass rolls off) as in stereo the sub gets the same sound input as the speakers. (If your receiver set the crossover to 40Hz then that is probably the frequency that your front speakers roll off in your room setting)

      If you find the sound doesn’t appear quite right then just experiment with different settings till it does. (Auto room EQ is not perfect)

      Bill
       
    27. dante01

      dante01
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      Crossover settings and the redirection of frequencies at and below those settings to the subwoofer is still in effect for speakers designated small even when dealing with stereo sources.

      If you set the speakers as being full range or large then nothing would be output to the sub while playing stereo sources because the crossover filters are not in effect for speakers designated large and there's no discrete LFE channel present in association with stereo sources.

      Crossovers have nothing to do with the discrete LFE channel associated with multichannel film soundtracks. The LFE channel is output to the sub irrespective of the speaker size configurations or the crossover settings. The crossover filters are only applicable to the full range audio that would have ordinarilly have been output by the conventional speakers in the absence of bass management. The same benefits associated with redirecting these frequencies when dealing with film soundtracks apply when dealing with stereo content.
       
      Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
    28. dode

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      I do not know about Yamaha but I have a Denon X2000 that has a setting for the sub that says "Main + LFE" so it is effective also for stereo music.
      Personally after years of setting the speakers "small" + the crossover at 80Hz I now prefer to have them at large and 40Hz. In my room this setting sounds best.
      Btw I have also Monitor Audio Bronze but older generation.
       
    29. dante01

      dante01
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      It is generally suggested not to use the LFE + MAIN setting because it is prone to give rise to bass boom. The setting results in the sub and front stereo pair handling the same lower frequencies. Not only does it result in bass boom issues, it negates the benefits associated with relieving the speakers of having to handle the lower frequencies often attributed to setting the speakers as being small. Yamaha receiver's have a similar mode termed EXTRA BASS.


      Even Audyssey suggest not using the LFE + MAIN option:
      Help on Audyssey Set up
       
      Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
    30. Abacus

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      You have misunderstood what I said; (Or I didn’t explain clearly) if you set the crossover at 80Hz (Which is ideal for movies) music will have the same crossover frequency which is not ideal for music unless speakers are very small.

      Most AV Receivers with the main speakers set to small will usually limit how low the crossover frequency will go, (Even though in reality they may sound better with a lower frequency) however setting them to large solves this problem giving a much more realistic sound. (That’s the reason a lot of subs have a high level speaker input in addition to low level connections for those receivers that cannot do both)

      Also don’t confuse LFE with sub bass as they are not the same.

      Hope this clarifies

      Bill
       

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