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Crossover and Speaker Settings in Relation to Bass Management

alextheg

Active Member
As a REL owner that ignored the advice of this thread for five years , I absolutely now believe you should follow Dante's advice . The improvement in sound across my whole system has been nothing short of astounding . Only wish I'd listened sooner. REL. Are getting this wrong , which is a shame as their subs are very good.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Forget REL's advice and just stick to LFE low level with a receiver. It's a different story if you want to connect a REL sub to a stereo amp by high level for music. It's takes a lot of time to get it right but when it is the results can be very good indeed. If you are just playing music through a receiver then LFE is more than sufficient.
 

alextheg

Active Member
Totally agree with this. When I had my T9 wired the REL way I just couldn't get a happy medium . Music sounded great although occasional gain adjustment was required to alleviate boom. Movies became far too boomy but since just using LFE on the receiver , everything is just so. Receivers clearly do a good job of bass management these days .
 

robase007

Active Member
Totally agree with this. When I had my T9 wired the REL way I just couldn't get a happy medium . Music sounded great although occasional gain adjustment was required to alleviate boom. Movies became far too boomy but since just using LFE on the receiver , everything is just so. Receivers clearly do a good job of bass management these days .
Thanks for all your advice. I’ll give it go and let you know.
 

Tingo

Standard Member
Hi all, I have a 5.1 system with a Denon avr-x3500h, after calibration I set the speakers to small and all crossovers to 80hz. I then tried the center only at 100hz which increased the volume and clarity of speech slightly. On some sights it has been suggested that setting different crossovers for the l/r and centre results in the loss of some sound.. Is that true and although speech is clearer am I again missing some of the sound at that crossover. Thanks.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Hi all, I have a 5.1 system with a Denon avr-x3500h, after calibration I set the speakers to small and all crossovers to 80hz. I then tried the center only at 100hz which increased the volume and clarity of speech slightly. On some sights it has been suggested that setting different crossovers for the l/r and centre results in the loss of some sound.. Is that true and although speech is clearer am I again missing some of the sound at that crossover. Thanks.
Make and model of the speakers? Although lifting the crossover can often bring more detail and make dialogue clearer the usual suspect is positioning. Do you have it in a cabinet, set back on a shelf or set too low?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
A male voice doesn't include frequencies below 100Hz. The voices of women or children wouldn't even go this low.

You don;t want the subwoofer portraying doalogue because the sub isn't supposed to be localised. You want dialogue to be localised to the speakers it is actually being sent to. Diverting frequencies above 80Hz increases the chances of the sub being localised by those gigher frequencies and this is why 80Hz is suggested as being the ideal starting point. THis is the point as which it recpgnised that the human aufotory system can start to localise frequencies. It should however be said that most people cannot localise anything velow 200Hz.


Even if redirecting the lower end out to the sub, you'd not be missing or discarding anything. The same audio is being portray, but by 2 speakers as opposed to une. THe frequencies at anfd below the crossover are portrayed by the sub while the frequencies above the crossover are being portrayed via the passive speakers. You simply perceive both as being one sound and not two different sources.
 

Tingo

Standard Member
Make and model of the speakers? Although lifting the crossover can often bring more detail and make dialogue clearer the usual suspect is positioning. Do you have it in a cabinet, set back on a shelf or set too low?
Hi, thanks for the reply and no laughing, I have a Tannoy mercury mx system, mx 4 to the front, mx 2 to the rear and mx c and sub. The centre is set behind the tv on a small table 8 inches from a corner, it has a clear view through an open shelved tv unit, the fronts are on either side of the tv and adjacent to a wall, the mx 2 are on the floor with backs close to a wall. I am aware that the mx 2 are lacking in base. All the speakers hace a foam bung in the rear. Having tried the centre at 100hz for a while I found although clearer something was not right overall and set it back to 80hz as all the others are set. Also I have been listening to the system after calibration for a couple of months not realising all the speakers were set to large but it sounded great after replacing my (don't laugh again) Denon avr 3802. Would new speakers provided anything further, I was not aware of how much inprovement a new avr made until I got one out of nessesity for the hdmi in and outs. Thanks.
 

Tingo

Standard Member
Hi, this is pertinent to me, if you don't have directional hearing what settings would you use. Thanks.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
The centre is set behind the tv on a small table 8 inches from a corner, it has a clear view through an open shelved tv unit, the fronts are on either side of the tv and adjacent to a wall, the mx 2 are on the floor with backs close to a wall.
That, my friend, is an absolute nightmare and I'm not surprised that your sound quality is poor. I suggest you open a thread on your own and post a diagram of your room with dimensions and possibly a couple of photographs. Just ask for speaker placement help as your problems go much deeper than just bass management.

Post here:
 

Tingo

Standard Member
That, my friend, is an absolute nightmare and I'm not surprised that your sound quality is poor. I suggest you open a thread on your own and post a diagram of your room with dimensions and possibly a couple of photographs. Just ask for speaker placement help as your problems go much deeper than just bass management.

Post here:
Thanks for the input, unfortunately that is the reality of my living room.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Thanks for the input, unfortunately that is the reality of my living room.
The biggest improvement would be gained from bring the centre in front of the TV, but if that's not possible then you probably have as good an audio as it's going to get. Buying new speakers isn't going to solve the problem.
 

Tingo

Standard Member
The biggest improvement would be gained from bring the centre in front of the TV, but if that's not possible then you probably have as good an audio as it's going to get. Buying new speakers isn't going to solve the problem.
Thanks gibbsy, Im just learning about the avr and like the sound just trying to optimise it, there are other issues in play for me due to a hearing impairment.
 

VenimK

Member
Have a Denon AVR-1500X
with a bose accoustimass 15.
What would be correct setting
All Speakers on large, and choosing no sub (like in manual) ?
 

L.SKYWALKER

Active Member
Over the last few years ive visited this thread with interest a number of times. Alas , ive ignored the advice given. Recently my wife has been complaining about the bass being too boomy. Now for me this isnt a problem , just a slight adjustment at the back of my REL T9 and everything is fine. Not something she wants to do and times when she has the sub settings end up shot to bits. This has arisen mostly with music , less so with movies.

For the last five years ive had the T9 hooked up exactly per REL instructions , using hi-level as well as LFE and for the most part had great results.

So today i finally took the advice of this thread. Disconnected the hi-level Speakon Neutrik cable. Ran an eight point calibration on my Yamaha RX A1070. The Yamaha set all speakers to large and 40hz crossover. I swiftly set all to small and 80hz. LFE gain on the T9 was set to 13 of 40 ( 1/3 ). The Yamaha set the sub level to -10db, a bit on the low side for me so i set it to -5db.

What followed was like an epithony. My system sounds like a whole new one . Im blown away by it. Movies and music just sound stunning. Everything is even and more natural sounding with plenty of punch. Literaly all five channels sound so much better.

Anyone in doubt of whether to follow the advice here , just do. The results will im sure surprise you. I now wonder though why REL are still giving such antiquated advice based on subs from years gone by. Bass management has obviously improved ten fold in AVR's nowadays. I for one will from now on let the AVR do its job .

While my T9 still sounds amazing , im suddenly feeling a tad curious to try something new...........
[/QUOTE

I’m using only the speakon cable always have and I understand the misses not liking the booming bass, so your saying I should unplug this and just use a LFE cable?
Only had my denon 4500 for a short while and i’m Still messing about with different setting. So will now set all speakers to small , and the LFE cable 80 hi on the crossovers Sound about right? Mines a Rel 200e had it over 10 years thinking of getting another sub rel t5i or any recommendations at around £500

Thanks
 

gibbsy

Moderator
My question is at the bottom please expand to read it👆👆
I experimented years ago with the high level on my REL T5 and could not perceive a difference with LFE for music and dispensed with the Neutrik. I don't think it's worth doing especially when using a receiver as the main amplification for music when it's used in a stereo mode. It would probably be a different story if you were running a stereo amp to underpin the main speakers.

LFE is far better for film and broadcast and proves more than adequate for bass from stereo music sources. REL have dispensed with high level on their new range of HT subs.
 

Pugs1

Member
I know 80 Hz is recommended but people ought to look at putting their room dimensions into the available spreadsheets that work out your room modes below 200hz and where peaks and troughs lie.

In my case my room is L 16.4, W 12.4, H 7.9. That gives me second order troughs at 67hz and third order at 92hz. Setting a cross over at 100 Hz alleviates the null at 92hz. Also, nulls occur at 1/4 & 3/4 lengths, so I have 67hz nulls at 4 & 12 feet along the length and 92 hz @3 & 9 feet along width. So placing my sub (in my case behind PLP) at 12 feet along and 3 feet out, gets rid of the troughs. You could do this at the front if required, same positioning. On top of that, once you have entered room dimensions, you can then ensure your seating is situated in a good area, in my case at 11 feet. So, download a room mode spreadsheet, enter dimensions, position sub to get rid of second/ third order LFs, work your seating out i.e. not in any nulls, then adjust crossovers to your room. You wouldn't cross over at 80 Hz if you had a big null there nor if you could not position the sub to get rid of it. I found that a long with what i said above and raising my crossovers to 100 Hz it was much better. I now have a clear centre channel dialogue, don't need to raise the bass and the bass is tight and musical with clout. By the way first order is always in the middle of the room, so don't sit there
 
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alextheg

Active Member
Definitely unplug the Speakon cable. The improvement across the board will surprise you , I'm sure. On the REL crossover , turn the dial to maximum. On the Denon , crossover 80 Hz and speakers set to small.

Sub recommendations . For £500 you may pick up a used t7i, t5i or possibly something from SVS. Keep an eye on the classified ads on here. I'll say one thing . My T9 hasn't let me down yet , had it 4 -5 years . Looks bloody good and sounds great too. Think I'll hang on to it and ignore the upgrade itch. Even machine polished it recently , came up lovely 😁
tapatalk_433161891.jpeg
 

robase007

Active Member
I have the following setup and based on Dante01 recommendations, I have set all speakers to small 80hz.

PMC 25 24 27Hz - 25kHz
PMC 25 22 39Hz - 25kHz
PMC 25 Center 45Hz - 25kHz
Subwoofer REL 212
Reciever Arcam AVR 750

Due to internal SPL test tone of the AVR750 I can only calibrate to 85db’s which I believe was the way Arcam designed it in the first place.
I’ve seen post about setting the subwoofer level to +10db’s so that does that mean I have to set the subwoofer to 95db’s ?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I have the following setup and based on Dante01 recommendations, I have set all speakers to small 80hz.

PMC 25 24 27Hz - 25kHz
PMC 25 22 39Hz - 25kHz
PMC 25 Center 45Hz - 25kHz
Subwoofer REL 212
Reciever Arcam AVR 750

Due to internal SPL test tone of the AVR750 I can only calibrate to 85db’s which I believe was the way Arcam designed it in the first place.
I’ve seen post about setting the subwoofer level to +10db’s so that does that mean I have to set the subwoofer to 95db’s ?

No, just calibrate the sub and level it to the same SPL as the other speakers. The additional volume associated with the LFE channel will be dealt with by the sounndtrack mix.

 

robase007

Active Member
No, just calibrate the sub and level it to the same SPL as the other speakers. The additional volume associated with the LFE channel will be dealt with by the sounndtrack mix.

Thanks Dante01, sound amazing BTW.
 

robase007

Active Member
Just a question Dante.I can only get a level of 85dbs on the Arcam AVR750.It won’t allow me to go down to 75db. I spoke to arcam and they said that’s the way it was set up when it was released. Does this affect the THX levels for 75dbs?
 

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