Quantcast

Crossover and Speaker Settings in Relation to Bass Management

raf77

Active Member
I would set crossover for 80hz.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member

adam-burnley

Distinguished Member
I have similar speakers to viper900, different amp though. The amp only offers 120Hz or 150Hz rather than the perfect 140Hz for the Tannoys. I've had it set to 150Hz, would you say this is better than 120Hz in my case? Frustratingly I was sold the amp with the 5.1 speaker package by Richer Sounds, albeit a decade ago. Having read this thread, I now think it was miss-sold?!
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I have similar speakers to viper900, different amp though. The amp only offers 120Hz or 150Hz rather than the perfect 140Hz for the Tannoys. I've had it set to 150Hz, would you say this is better than 120Hz in my case? Frustratingly I was sold the amp with the 5.1 speaker package by Richer Sounds, albeit a decade ago. Having read this thread, I now think it was miss-sold?!
I'd suggest the 150Hz setting as opposed to the 120Hz option. With any luck the roll off will be slow enogh to cover the 10Hz that are amiss? Your issue is a common with the package, especially if paired with a Yamaha receiver which skips from 120 to 160Hz as crossover options.
 

adam-burnley

Distinguished Member
I'd suggest the 150Hz setting as opposed to the 120Hz option. With any luck the roll off will be slow enogh to cover the 10Hz that are amiss? Your issue is a common with the package, especially if paired with a Yamaha receiver which skips from 120 to 160Hz as crossover options.
Thanks. Well it's a Samsung AV-R710, but was considering replacing with the Yamaha RXV581, but sounds like I could be in a worse position with bass unless I also replace the speakers and/or sub?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Thanks. Well it's a Samsung AV-R710, but was considering replacing with the Yamaha RXV581, but sounds like I could be in a worse position with bass unless I also replace the speakers and/or sub?
As I suggested, the roll off should be long enough to cover the 10Hz. It isn't perfect, but neither is it a major issue. If push does come to shove then it is the sub that is causing the issue more than the speakers. A sub with a higher frequency handling ability would resolve the issue. If wanting to improve performance overall then both should be replaced.
 

viper900

Standard Member
Yes, I'd advise you set the associated crossovers no lower than 140Hz. I'd maybe not set it any higher either because the sub is rated with a max frequency handling ability of 140Hz.
The problem is the Denon only 40, 80, 100, 120, 150, 200hz are available in the crossover section. What is the best option in my case here?

Also, I have a problem with the bass. When there is a scene with heavy bass, the sub shakes and vibrates violently - feels like a mini earthquake in the room.

I want there to be bass from the subwoofer, but I don't want it to rattle the room like this. What can I do to help resolve this?
 

DrHarvey12

Well-known Member
@viper900

I think, as Dante suggested above the 150hz option would be the one to go for. This means that your speakers are not going to be pushed to try to produce bass that they are not capable of which is likely to sound rather bad! As Dante says there will be some slight rollover from both the sub and the speakers at the 150hz setting so the speakers will produce some of the bass down to 140hz and the sub up to 150hz (or at least what the sub is capable of doing).

Have you run the setup routine on your Denon X2300W? Part of that should be an automatic calibration routine where the receiver will attempt to set the correct crossovers for the speakers you are using and also set the output level for the subwoofer. It recommends running the calibration with the subwoofer gain at the 12 o clock position (usually mid-way).

Assuming this has been run and you still think that the subwoofer is producing too much bass then there should be a setting (possibly under the options button on the remote control) called subwoofer level adjust. This you should turn on and then under subwoofer level adjust the level down a few decibels. Then try watching a scene which had the overly loud bass and keep adjusting the level down to you reach the desired amount of bass.

I found the details about the above here:

Subwoofer Level Adjust AVR-X2300W

If you are still having issues after attempting this then come back to us and I'm sure we can recommend other things to try.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The problem is the Denon only 40, 80, 100, 120, 150, 200hz are available in the crossover section. What is the best option in my case here?


150Hz.


You've no other option other than to rely upon the sub for the bass brcause of the sat speakers capabilities. I can only suggest you buy a better sub in order to try eliminate the issues you describe.
 

SirTiger007

Active Member
The problem is the Denon only 40, 80, 100, 120, 150, 200hz are available in the crossover section. What is the best option in my case here?

Also, I have a problem with the bass. When there is a scene with heavy bass, the sub shakes and vibrates violently - feels like a mini earthquake in the room.

I want there to be bass from the subwoofer, but I don't want it to rattle the room like this. What can I do to help resolve this?
Thought I'd add to this at the risk of too much advice, but I have that same amp and my best mate has those speakers so thought it may be useful.

With the amp, post calibration, if there is too much bass it will decrease the sub volume to a max of -12. The amp can't turn the sub down less than that, so if you see a -12 bass volume in the Volume Levels section then turn down the volume on the sub and calibrate it again.

With the speakers my mate found it was a very good overall kit, but the sub struggled at medium volume with any very low frequency signals. When he stepped up to blu Rays and got his new amp that did high def sound, the sub struggled to reproduce the low stuff and rattled like you described. I notice in its specs that it only goes down to 45Hz and blu Rays usually go down to at least 20Hz so it could be this. Turning down the volume worked for him. But in the end he bought a new sub instead and loves it now!
 

viper900

Standard Member
Thought I'd add to this at the risk of too much advice, but I have that same amp and my best mate has those speakers so thought it may be useful.

With the amp, post calibration, if there is too much bass it will decrease the sub volume to a max of -12. The amp can't turn the sub down less than that, so if you see a -12 bass volume in the Volume Levels section then turn down the volume on the sub and calibrate it again.

With the speakers my mate found it was a very good overall kit, but the sub struggled at medium volume with any very low frequency signals. When he stepped up to blu Rays and got his new amp that did high def sound, the sub struggled to reproduce the low stuff and rattled like you described. I notice in its specs that it only goes down to 45Hz and blu Rays usually go down to at least 20Hz so it could be this. Turning down the volume worked for him. But in the end he bought a new sub instead and loves it now!
I'll give these settings a whirl. I actually tried lowering the subwoofer level just now but noticed an immediate absence of the bass too. :\

Silly question but when the sub violently shakes the room during explosions or gunfights in movies, is that normal or problematic? My previous Pioneer HTP-071 gave a lot of bass without the rumble, but just surprised the TFX is doing so.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I'll give these settings a whirl. I actually tried lowering the subwoofer level just now but noticed an immediate absence of the bass too. :\

Silly question but when the sub violently shakes the room during explosions or gunfights in movies, is that normal or problematic? My previous Pioneer HTP-071 gave a lot of bass without the rumble, but just surprised the TFX is doing so.

A lot of the LFE channel is intended to be felt as opposed to being heard. Your sub cannot really convey this though becase it cannot attain the lower frequency levels that are included within the LFE channel that are below 20Hz. 20Hz is regarded as being the point at which the human auditory system stops being able to hear frequencies, but you can still feel them.
 

adam-burnley

Distinguished Member
A lot of the LFE channel is intended to be felt as opposed to being heard. Your sub cannot really convey this though becase it cannot attain the lower frequency levels that are included within the LFE channel that are below 20Hz. 20Hz is regarded as being the point at which the human auditory system stops being able to hear frequencies, but you can still feel them.
Hi dante01, so what is the entry point for a sub that goes below 20Hz?

I assume it should also go as high as the lowest point of the speakers to avoid a gap? Is it okay for the sub to exceed the lowest speaker frequency, or better to match or be slightly lower?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Hi dante01, so what is the entry point for a sub that goes below 20Hz?

I assume it should also go as high as the lowest point of the speakers to avoid a gap? Is it okay for the sub to exceed the lowest speaker frequency, or better to match or be slightly lower?

Subs that go down below 20Hz are predominantly on the more expensive side and there's not really a budget option. The BK XXLS400 should give you output in the region of if not below 20Hz though and this sub although nearly £500 isn't that expensive considering what you get for the money.

XXLS400-DF
 

SirTiger007

Active Member
Hi dante01, so what is the entry point for a sub that goes below 20Hz?

I assume it should also go as high as the lowest point of the speakers to avoid a gap? Is it okay for the sub to exceed the lowest speaker frequency, or better to match or be slightly lower?
I have the newest BK Sub which goes below 20Hz, it was about £380 or so and is a brilliant bit of kit!
 

adam-burnley

Distinguished Member
I have the newest BK Sub which goes below 20Hz, it was about £380 or so and is a brilliant bit of kit!
What speakers do you run with the BK, and what amp?

How big is your room?

I'm possibly looking at a new 5.1 or 5.1.2 setup for a small living room, just 3.5m x 4.5m. Is the BK sub overkill?

Sorry dante01, appreciate I'm going off topic so will create a new thread when I've done a bit more research.
 

SirTiger007

Active Member
What speakers do you run with the BK, and what amp?

How big is your room?

I'm possibly looking at a new 5.1 or 5.1.2 setup for a small living room, just 3.5m x 4.5m. Is the BK sub overkill?

Sorry dante01, appreciate I'm going off topic so will create a new thread when I've done a bit more research.
I have these Jamo speakers (the sub died recently hence the purchase) and it's paired with a Denon X2300. Room is about 5x4m. The BK Sub, whilst large, is superb at filling in the more refined bass that's needed with small satellites. Crossover is at 150Hz (keeping it on topic) as that's as low as the satellites go.

In order to get the very low Hz to a useful level you need to turn the volume up near reference which I rarely do due to small humans sleeping upstairs. But it can be very punchy when needed to!
 

viper900

Standard Member
150Hz.


You've no other option other than to rely upon the sub for the bass brcause of the sat speakers capabilities. I can only suggest you buy a better sub in order to try eliminate the issues you describe.
I'm a bit confused with all this crossover stuff. What does the 80, 100, 120, 150, 200 etc hz settings mean? Does it really matter if you choose the correct or incorrect one? The default on the receiver is 80Hz. When it was set at 80 I didn't notice anything wrong with the sound. Now at 150 it doesn't sound any different either. Just curious - I'm a complete newcomer to all this.
 

AV Online

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
I'm a bit confused with all this crossover stuff. What does the 80, 100, 120, 150, 200 etc hz settings mean? Does it really matter if you choose the correct or incorrect one? The default on the receiver is 80Hz. When it was set at 80 I didn't notice anything wrong with the sound. Now at 150 it doesn't sound any different either. Just curious - I'm a complete newcomer to all this.
This is the low frequency cut off filter for the speakers. No content below your chosen setting will be delivered to the speakers. 80Hz is typical but very small compact speakers are often not capable of sufficent output this low and you have to adjust your system settings.

Low frequencies put more stress on the speakers, so while setting your speakers to 80Hz may well be fine, there are scenarios where this could cause damage to the speakers, particularly at higher output volumes. Also, if your speakers internal crossover is filtering out anything sent to them that is below 150Hz for example, then you wouldnt hear any difference setting them lower as the speakers wont play that lower content anyway. What will happen is that the subwoofer will only play upto 80Hz and you will have a gap in the audio between the 80Hz the subwoofer stops playing at, and the 150Hz your speakers are playing at. This gap of missing content may not be immediately obvious but it will make a difference.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I'm a bit confused with all this crossover stuff. What does the 80, 100, 120, 150, 200 etc hz settings mean? Does it really matter if you choose the correct or incorrect one? The default on the receiver is 80Hz. When it was set at 80 I didn't notice anything wrong with the sound. Now at 150 it doesn't sound any different either. Just curious - I'm a complete newcomer to all this.
The crossover setting redirects frequencies at and below that point away from speakers designated small and outputs them to the subwoofer for it to handle. There are 2 reasons for doing this and the first depends upon the frequency range your speakers are rated as being able to handle. You shouldn't send frequencies that your speakers cannot handle to those speakers or you'd not experience that aspect of the audio. The second reason is the reason why you more often than not set the crossovers higher than the lowest frequency your speakers are able to handle. You improve the upper frequency headroom of your speakers by having the sub deal with the more demanding lower frequencies. This is explained here:

Small vs. Large
Do you have a subwoofer in your system? Great. Then your speakers are small. Before you get all upset, read on. This is one of those audio myths whose time has come to be busted. To understand why, we need to talk about Bass Management.

In the early days of home theater it was thought that in order to reproduce the full movie surround experience at home it was necessary to place 5 large loudspeakers in the room. The reason for the size was the woofers. To play at theatrical reference levels and reproduce the deepest bass available in the content requires each speaker to have 12” or larger woofers. Let’s just say that this theory didn’t get very far in the real world.

A better and more practical approach came after studying human perception. The mechanisms that we use to determine the direction of arrival of sound depend on the frequency. At high frequencies the wavelength of sound is small and so sound coming from the side is shadowed by our head. That creates a level difference between the sound reaching the ear closest to the source and the ear on the other side. Our brain analyzes these level differences and produces an estimate of where the sound is coming from. But at lower frequencies, the wavelength of sound gets longer and our head is not large enough to produce a level difference at the two ears. Instead, we analyze the difference in time of arrival of sound at the two ears. Sound arrives first at the closest ear and we use that to determine the direction. But even that ability fails us below about 80 Hz. The wavelengths get very large and it was found in listening tests that 80 Hz is the frequency below which most people can not localize the direction of sound.

Taking advantage of this apparent “deficiency” in our hearing was what made home theater practical for millions of homes. Five satellite speakers of reasonable size could now be used because they no longer required large woofers. A subwoofer (or two) can reproduce the lower octaves and it can be placed out of sight since its content is not directional.

But there is also a practical advantage: directing the bass to a dedicated subwoofer channel with its own amplifier greatly improves the headroom in the main channels. The idea behind this was proposed in a Society of Motion Picture Engineers (SMPTE) meeting in 1987. The participants could not agree on the minimum number of channels required for surround sound on film. Various numbers were being shouted out until a voice was heard from the back: “We need 5.1”. Everyone’s head turned around to look at Tom Holman. He proceeded to explain what he meant: Take the low frequency content from all 5 channels and redirect it away from the satellite speakers to the subwoofer. If we do the math, then the content below 80 Hz is 0.004 of the audible 20,000 Hz bandwidth. But 5.004 didn’t sound as catchy so Tom rounded up to 5.1. By the way, don’t make the amateur mistake of calling it 5 dot 1. It is a decimal: 5 point 1.
Fast forward to the early 90s when the first DSP powered home theater receivers started to appear. Along with progress came complexity. Some industry forces believed that Bass Management should be an option that could be turned on and off by the consumer. That’s not necessarily a bad idea, but to make an informed decision requires much more knowledge about the system than what was available to the typical consumer. So, the Large and Small rule of thumb was established. The idea was to look at the size of your speakers and decide whether their woofers were “large enough” to reproduce the lowest octaves at the required levels. It was a noble thought, but looking at it 15 years later I believe that it has led to nothing but massive confusion. The poor consumer was led to believe that Large is somehow a good thing and was then left wondering why there was nothing coming out of their subwoofer.

Redirecting the bass to the subwoofer relieves the receiver amplifiers from having to work on reproducing the low frequencies and this greatly improves the headroom. If you happen to be using Audyssey MultEQ for room correction, you will achieve much better low frequency performance because the MultEQ subwoofer filters have 8x higher resolution than the filters in the other channels.

Here is a better rule: All speakers are Small. In today’s complicated AVR lingo that just means: If you have a subwoofer you should always turn bass management on. Always. Even if your receiver clings to the past and automatically sets your speakers to Large.
 
Last edited:

antsims

Distinguished Member
Just posted this in the pioneer MCACC thread before I saw this thread. I know I'm repeating myself but I was wondering if anyone can help me with my bass issue please? Don't quite understand this crossover "thing". Thanks

I have 701 and I run 5.1.4 with Cambridge Audio minx min11s for surrounds and overheads and min21s for fronts centre left and right. Whilst I think the sound is great it is way too bassy. I've run the auto MCACC and it's chosen all my speakers as small, which is right, but crossover is 200. Should I reduce this? It never sounded this bassy when I had SCLX 59. Even turning bass down on the sub doesn't make much difference. The mins have more bass coming from them than I've ever heard from any amp I've had before. Sometimes the room shakes and whilst I am living in a detached house, my 3 year old sleeping above the living room probably doesn't appreciate it. Sometimes it just doesn't sound "nice". What can I do?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Just posted this in the pioneer MCACC thread before I saw this thread. I know I'm repeating myself but I was wondering if anyone can help me with my bass issue please? Don't quite understand this crossover "thing". Thanks

I have 701 and I run 5.1.4 with Cambridge Audio minx min11s for surrounds and overheads and min21s for fronts centre left and right. Whilst I think the sound is great it is way too bassy. I've run the auto MCACC and it's chosen all my speakers as small, which is right, but crossover is 200. Should I reduce this? It never sounded this bassy when I had SCLX 59. Even turning bass down on the sub doesn't make much difference. The mins have more bass coming from them than I've ever heard from any amp I've had before. Sometimes the room shakes and whilst I am living in a detached house, my 3 year old sleeping above the living room probably doesn't appreciate it. Sometimes it just doesn't sound "nice". What can I do?

It is suggested that you shouldn't set crossovers lower than the crossover point arrived at by the receiver's own calibration. It is perfectly acceptable to reconfigure this setting and set it higher, but inadvisable to set it lower. The crossover point is calculated by measuring the associated speakers' roll off so if you set it lower then chances are that you'd be creating a hole not covered by either the speakers or the sub. Setting the crossovers lower wouldn't reduce the bass anyway and would simply redirect the frequencies away from the speakers to the sub.

The crossover settings redirect frequencies at and below this point from speakers configured as being SMALL and sends these frequencies to the sub to handle. If finding that the bass is sounding too high then maybe decrease just the sub's level setting, but be careful not to take this adjustment too far or you'll be creating an unblanced setup.

Maybe it's more a case of the bass being boomy within your room as opposed to the levels? I'd maybe suggest you experiment with the positioning and the location of the sub in order to try address this? Maybe try moving it further out and away from walls and or corners?

Something else that you may want to investigate is using a night time listening mode. Such modes allow you to descrease the master volume in order to try not disturb others, but compress the dynamic range and still maintain audible dialogue and quieter aspects of the soundtrack. I'm not familiar with Pioneer AV receiver so cannot comment on such modes that may be available to you?
 
Last edited:

SirTiger007

Active Member
It is suggested that you shouldn't set crossovers lower than the crossover point arrived at by the receiver's own calibration. It is perfectly acceptable to reconfigure this setting and set it higher, but inadvisable to set it lower. The crossover point is calculated by measuring the associated speakers' roll off so if you set it lower then chances are that you'd be creating a hole not covered by either the speakers or the sub. Setting the crossovers lower wouldn't reduce the bass anyway and would simply redirect the frequencies away from the speakers to the sub.

The crossover settings redirect frequencies at and below this point from speakers configured as being SMALL and sends these frequencies to the sub to handle. If finding that the bass is sounding too high then maybe decrease just the sub's level setting, but be careful not to take this adjustment too far or you'll be creating an unblanced setup.

Maybe it's more a case of the bass being boomy within your room as opposed to the levels? I'd maybe suggest you experiment with the positioning and the location of the sub in order to try address this? Maybe try moving it further out and away from walls and or corners?

Something else that you may want to investigate is using a night time listening mode. Such modes allow you to descrease the master volume in order to try not disturb others, but compress the dynamic range and still maintain audible dialogue and quieter aspects of the soundtrack. I'm not familiar with Pioneer AV receiver so cannot comment on such modes that may be available to you?
The only other thing I could suggest is turning down the volume on the sub to around 1/3 and try recalibrating again. If the volume is too high the amp can't compensate when balancing the levels.
 

antsims

Distinguished Member
It is suggested that you shouldn't set crossovers lower than the crossover point arrived at by the receiver's own calibration. It is perfectly acceptable to reconfigure this setting and set it higher, but inadvisable to set it lower. The crossover point is calculated by measuring the associated speakers' roll off so if you set it lower then chances are that you'd be creating a hole not covered by either the speakers or the sub. Setting the crossovers lower wouldn't reduce the bass anyway and would simply redirect the frequencies away from the speakers to the sub.

The crossover settings redirect frequencies at and below this point from speakers configured as being SMALL and sends these frequencies to the sub to handle. If finding that the bass is sounding too high then maybe decrease just the sub's level setting, but be careful not to take this adjustment too far or you'll be creating an unblanced setup.

Maybe it's more a case of the bass being boomy within your room as opposed to the levels? I'd maybe suggest you experiment with the positioning and the location of the sub in order to try address this? Maybe try moving it further out and away from walls and or corners?

Something else that you may want to investigate is using a night time listening mode. Such modes allow you to descrease the master volume in order to try not disturb others, but compress the dynamic range and still maintain audible dialogue and quieter aspects of the soundtrack. I'm not familiar with Pioneer AV receiver so cannot comment on such modes that may be available to you?
Thanks everyone. Will try all suggestions.
 

Trending threads

Latest News

Disney developing AI based video compression
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Vizio announces Disney+ available on SmartCast TVs
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Audio-Technica reveals Kokutan and Asada Zakura headphones
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Sky announces combined Sky Sports and BT Sport packages
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Qobuz drops MP3s and introduces Studio Premier Plan
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Top Bottom