Creating the ideal sound stage - speaker pos in relation to (a high) listening pos

Riyazi

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I am so sorry this is so long but I wanted to give as much info as possible
Hi guys. Really getting in to all the science of audio/sound reproduction and have been reading quite a lot on these forums and other sites about speakers, subs, positioning, crossovers, etc etc. Fascinating.

Have a few things that I am not sure of and would love to get your thoughts on. I have/will have a very modest Diamond 10 system (not BW 800 S or MK system :eek:) so trying to optimise performance by getting all the placements as perfect as possible.


What I have learnt
  • Front L + R should have tweeters at or around ear level
  • Front L + R should be turned 45deg towards listening position
  • Centre just below or above TV in line with L + R position
  • Surround L + R should have tweeters about 2 feet (60 cm) above ear level
  • Surround L + R should be positioned at 90 or 110 deg towards listening position
Source: THX

Listening Area
  • is the Lounge which is approximately 12 feet (365 cm) square with a wall behind front speakers, a wall behind rear speakers, windows on the right and on left open to dining area which is approximately the same size as lounge (therefore room is actually 24 feet by 12 feet).
  • Couch is right against the back wall.
  • Listening position - centre of couch in normal upright sitting posture
  • Ear height at Listening position - 3.3 feet (100 cm) - it's a high couch

Current setup
  • Front L+R - Diamond 10.1s on 1.8 feet (55 cm) stands positioned at 45 deg angle. Distance to listening position - 10 feet (300 cm)
  • Distance between L and R is about 8 feet (245 cm)
  • Centre - Diamond 10.CC placed on AV cabinet which is about 2 feet (60 cm) height. Distance to listening position - 10 feet (300 cm)
  • Surrounds - Tannoy EFX sats hung on rear wall about 5 feet (150 cm) away from listening position and 2 feet (60 cm) above ear height. Pointing down and angled towards listening position.
  • No sub at the moment but have plans to get a Gemini soon but for this discussion assume no sub with Fronts being set as Large

Possible future setup
  • Front L+R - Diamond 10.3s
  • Centre - Diamond 10.CS
  • Surrounds - Diamond 10.1s on 3.3 feet (100 cm) stands
  • Positions will be same as current setup for L+R and Centre
  • Position for surround will be 10.1s on stands as close to the rear wall as possible with speakers turned towards listening position at approximately 110 deg angle (speaker side will be against the wall - rear port won't be covered by wall)

Issues
Having recently upgraded to the Diamond 10.1, I [-]see[/-] hear a great improvement in sound quality. This is also down to improved speaker placement as earlier I had all 3 fronts on top of the AV cabinet. However, when viewing movies I don't hear the fronts come in to play with some directional sound at the higher frequencies (assume they are wired correctly) with most of it coming from the centre. This could be for 2 reasons:
  1. the fact that I don't have a sub and the fronts being set as large (as well as being bi amped) means that the woofers are working more and the higher frequencies are getting distorted/lost (I am not sure whether I am right in this assumption). The bass is really good and I can hear some nice thuds and booms and feel the couch vibrating at normal volumes (at about 40-45 level). I keep lowering the volume during action scenes because I am afraid the downstairs neighbour is going to complain! :devil:
  2. the front tweeters come to about 2.6 feet (80 cm) above floor level while ear height at listening position is 3.3 feet (100 cm). The difference coupled with the close sitting position would mean that I might be missing out on some directional higher frequencies coming from the fronts
I am inclined to think the latter is correct and am planning on getting 70-80cm stands for the fronts so that tweeters line up at about 100cm. But this raises a few issues:
  • I have seen several hi spec setups (like this one) where the fronts are nowhere near ear height and they seem pretty happy with the setup
  • speakers have been angled towards the middle of the couch but we sit either on the left or right sides (in order to use the recliners) - could this be an issue?
  • some times I would sink further in to a deeper reclining position. This would bring my ears to about the tweeter height (reduction of 0.66 feet [20 cm]). However, I don't hear a difference with the current setup and if I did get new stands to raise the fronts, would there be an effect because of the disparity between the higher tweeter and lower ear level. From what I've read, this is less of a problem than having the tweeters lower than ear level
  • I plan on getting the 10.3s for the fronts. The height of these with spikes comes to 2.8 feet (85 cm). Again a disparity of about 20cm between tweeter and normal ear height. Should I actually get stands for the floor standers (!!! :eek:) to bridge the 20 cm gap?
  • When I upgrade the fronts, I wont be able to mount the 10.1s on the wall as rears (rented property) so they will be on stands. The highest stand I can find is 3.3 feet (100 cm) which would put the rear tweeters about 0.8 feet (25 cm) above ear level which is considerably less than the 2 feet (60 cm) recommended by THX. I am not even sure the 100 cm stands can support the weight of the 10.1s! What do I do?

Once again apologies for the long post and if you've read this far, thank you very much! Any thoughts or comments will be most welcome.
 
Anyone have any thoughts on the above? Was going to get floorstanders this weekend but their height is making me consider putting the 10.1s on higher stands in front and getting different rears
 
Are you sure the bi-amped fronts are wired correctly? Seems odd that you say that the higher frequencies are getting lost/distorted.

As for surrounds try experimenting with regards to placement. Placing the speakers on their backs and firing upwards can work really well as it gives a more diffuse sound.
 
Thanks Jase. Yes bi-amped properly - checked and double checked. The frequencies seem lost only at the listening position - when I am closer to the speaker I hear a lot more different series of sounds than when I am sitting at the normal position.

And interesting about the rear speaker placement - do you mean put them on their backs whilst on the stands or on the floor?
 
My thoughts are that you are dwelling waaaaay too much on speaker height.

Especially as you have Audyssey room correction that should have adjusted for the multiple listening positions and speaker distances if you or Audyssey set it up right. Worth going back and checking the settings to see if it is correct.
 
Thanks Jase. Yes bi-amped properly - checked and double checked. The frequencies seem lost only at the listening position - when I am closer to the speaker I hear a lot more different series of sounds than when I am sitting at the normal position.

And interesting about the rear speaker placement - do you mean put them on their backs whilst on the stands or on the floor?

You can do either. I'd try them on the speaker stands first and see what you think.

With regards to the front speakers, I think you've got them toed-in too much. I would aim their drivers/tweeters so they are firing directly at where you actually sit on the sofa. Alternatively, aim them so they are firing just outside your left ear (when you sit on the left side of the sofa) and just outside your right ear (when sat on the right). Hope that makes sense.

You can use a tape measure as a line of sight or even attach a small mirror to the speakers and angle them until you see yourself in the mirror from the sofa. A laser pointer/measure works brilliantly if you want to be more accurate! :D
 
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My thoughts are that you are dwelling waaaaay too much on speaker height.
Indeed I am - I was thinking the same when I was typing that 1st post :D But as indicated, just trying to maximise on the little I have and I read a lot about speaker placement being a key factor for improving sound

Especially as you have Audyssey room correction that should have adjusted for the multiple listening positions and speaker distances if you or Audyssey set it up right. Worth going back and checking the settings to see if it is correct.
Plan on doing that during the weekend. I might start moving speakers around (not sure how I can increase the height though) to see if it will sound better. Audyssey does a good job of adjusting based on the speaker position but my understanding is that it wont be able to compensate effectively for poor speaker placement

You can do either. I'd try them on the speaker stands first and see what you think.

With regards to the front speakers, I think you've got them toed-in too much. I would aim their drivers/tweeters so they are firing directly at where you actually sit on the sofa. Alternatively, aim them so they are firing just outside your left ear (when you sit on the left side of the sofa) and just outside your right ear (when sat on the right). Hope that makes sense.

You can use a tape measure as a line of sight or even attach a small mirror to the speakers and angle them until you see yourself in the mirror from the sofa. A laser pointer/measure works brilliantly if you want to be more accurate! :D

Thanks for that - it all makes sense. I will play around with what you suggested. A laser pointer will be bit much but that mirror idea is a good one.
 
To compensate for any height differences you can vary the position of the mic when running Audyssey. Just take a couple of measurements around the seating position a few cms higher (or lower) than the others.
 
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two suggestions that I didn't see mentioned. First, there is not 45 degree standard on aiming the speakers toward the primary seating position. You do not want the drivers aimed directly at position 1, otherwise you end up with something like head phones which is not what your after. IMHO You should listen to your L/R speakers in stereo mode and adjust to the minimum angle that provides the best sound stage, meaning a clearly centered image when it is suppose to be and good dispersion/ imaging for everything else. Start with the speakers aimed straight ahead and adjust them inwards in very small increments. Then make sure your center channel is centered between the L/R and play with the surround sound from there.

Second suggestion is to try angling all of the front three speakers up a bit.... I hope this helps
 
I am so sorry this is so long but I wanted to give as much info as possible
Hi guys. Really getting in to all the science of audio/sound reproduction and have been reading quite a lot on these forums and other sites about speakers, subs, positioning, crossovers, etc etc. Fascinating.

Have a few things that I am not sure of and would love to get your thoughts on. I have/will have a very modest Diamond 10 system (not BW 800 S or MK system :eek:) so trying to optimise performance by getting all the placements as perfect as possible.


What I have learnt

Front L + R should have tweeters at or around ear level
Or pointing to ear level by adding an incline to the speaker
Front L + R should be turned 45deg towards listening position
Disagree with this one. The best sound staging generally comes if you aim the tweeters to an imaginary point around 3ft behind the MPL. This is a general rule though and will be different for different speakers dependent on their dispersion pattern and interaction with the room. Experimentation is key!
Centre just below or above TV in line with L + R position
It is even more important with the centre channel that the speaker be tilted upwards so that the tweeter is pointing to ear level.
Surround L + R should have tweeters about 2 feet (60 cm) above ear level
That should be fine.
Surround L + R should be positioned at 90 or 110 deg towards listening position
That should be fine.
Source: THX

Listening Area

is the Lounge which is approximately 12 feet (365 cm) square with a wall behind front speakers, a wall behind rear speakers, windows on the right and on left open to dining area which is approximately the same size as lounge (therefore room is actually 24 feet by 12 feet).
Couch is right against the back wall.
This is not ideal - are you not able to move the couch off the back wall? If not, you will benefit from treating the wall behind the MLP - look at the end of this post for some points on room treatment.
Listening position - centre of couch in normal upright sitting posture
Ear height at Listening position - 3.3 feet (100 cm) - it's a high couch


Current setup

Front L+R - Diamond 10.1s on 1.8 feet (55 cm) stands positioned at 45 deg angle. Distance to listening position - 10 feet (300 cm)
As mentioned above, experiment with toe in to give the best balance between focus of central stereo image, and width of soundstage.
Distance between L and R is about 8 feet (245 cm)
You have scope here to widen your soundstage by moving the FR and FL speaker to 10ft apart, and give yourself the 'ideal' equilateral triangle between FR-FL-MLP.
Centre - Diamond 10.CC placed on AV cabinet which is about 2 feet (60 cm) height. Distance to listening position - 10 feet (300 cm)
As mentioned above, you need to angle this up if not already done.
Surrounds - Tannoy EFX sats hung on rear wall about 5 feet (150 cm) away from listening position and 2 feet (60 cm) above ear height. Pointing down and angled towards listening position.
I wouldn't angle the surrounds down, have them firing horizontally. The main reason for placing them 2-3ft above ear level is that they fire over the listeners head to create a non-localised and diffuse surround sound field. Angling them down defeats this.
No sub at the moment but have plans to get a Gemini soon but for this discussion assume no sub with Fronts being set as Large
You should make a sub a priority upgrade, it will make the world of difference to your set-up. You're speakers probably start rolling off at around 60Hz so you are missing a good portion of the lower part of the audio band, not to mention the LFE channel.
Possible future setup
  • Front L+R - Diamond 10.3s
  • Centre - Diamond 10.CS
  • Surrounds - Diamond 10.1s on 3.3 feet (100 cm) stands
  • Positions will be same as current setup for L+R and Centre
  • Position for surround will be 10.1s on stands as close to the rear wall as possible with speakers turned towards listening position at approximately 110 deg angle (speaker side will be against the wall - rear port won't be covered by wall)
Get the sub before any of the above!! Keep the surrounds up high, not on stands.
Issues
Having recently upgraded to the Diamond 10.1, I [-]see[/-] hear a great improvement in sound quality. This is also down to improved speaker placement as earlier I had all 3 fronts on top of the AV cabinet. However, when viewing movies I don't hear the fronts come in to play with some directional sound at the higher frequencies (assume they are wired correctly) with most of it coming from the centre. This could be for 2 reasons:
  1. the fact that I don't have a sub and the fronts being set as large (as well as being bi amped) means that the woofers are working more and the higher frequencies are getting distorted/lost (I am not sure whether I am right in this assumption). The bass is really good and I can hear some nice thuds and booms and feel the couch vibrating at normal volumes (at about 40-45 level). I keep lowering the volume during action scenes because I am afraid the downstairs neighbour is going to complain! :devil:
  2. the front tweeters come to about 2.6 feet (80 cm) above floor level while ear height at listening position is 3.3 feet (100 cm). The difference coupled with the close sitting position would mean that I might be missing out on some directional higher frequencies coming from the fronts
I am inclined to think the latter is correct and am planning on getting 70-80cm stands for the fronts so that tweeters line up at about 100cm.
Despite what others have said above, tweeter height or directionality is critical in my opinion. Tweeters often suffer significant uneven frequency response off axis, so get them pointing to ear level as much as you are able (for the front LCR only).

Your issues with the high frequency clarity from the FR and FL speakers is, I think, two fold, but nothing to do with bi-amping, and not a significant amount to do with running them as large (though running a sub with a suitable cross over from the main speaker may afford additional amp headroom for the mid/tweeter so adding some additional control and clarity in that area).

Firstly, in a properly set up system you shouldn't be able to hear sounds from individual speakers - you should just have a seamless soundstage with sounds placed accurately within it, but not identifiable from a specific speaker.

Secondly your room acoustics, and in particular room reflections, could be causing smearing of the upper frequencies, particularly given your seating position close to the rear wall. The timing issue resulting from the arrival of reflected sounds from the rear and side walls could well be reducing the intelligibility of sounds coming direct from your main speakers.

But this raises a few issues:
I have seen several hi spec setups (like this one) where the fronts are nowhere near ear height and they seem pretty happy with the setup

speakers have been angled towards the middle of the couch but we sit either on the left or right sides (in order to use the recliners) - could this be an issue?
Definitely! See above! ;)
some times I would sink further in to a deeper reclining position. This would bring my ears to about the tweeter height (reduction of 0.66 feet [20 cm]). However, I don't hear a difference with the current setup and if I did get new stands to raise the fronts, would there be an effect because of the disparity between the higher tweeter and lower ear level. From what I've read, this is less of a problem than having the tweeters lower than ear level

I plan on getting the 10.3s for the fronts. The height of these with spikes comes to 2.8 feet (85 cm). Again a disparity of about 20cm between tweeter and normal ear height. Should I actually get stands for the floor standers (!!! :eek:) to bridge the 20 cm gap?

When I upgrade the fronts, I wont be able to mount the 10.1s on the wall as rears (rented property) so they will be on stands. The highest stand I can find is 3.3 feet (100 cm) which would put the rear tweeters about 0.8 feet (25 cm) above ear level which is considerably less than the 2 feet (60 cm) recommended by THX. I am not even sure the 100 cm stands can support the weight of the 10.1s! What do I do?


Once again apologies for the long post and if you've read this far, thank you very much! Any thoughts or comments will be most welcome.

You have the makings of a good set-up, and it's good to see you are taking time and care with placement as this can bring substantial rewards to sound quality. Experiment with toeing in of your FR and FL speakers - as you have them they are crossing in front of your listening position, which is not ideal.
I would certainly recommend adding a sub before any other upgrade, and I would also recommend you consider some room treatment panels to deal with first reflection points to the right and left sides walls, and definitely behind your main listening position.
 
Thanks for that Jim - will be certainly trying those suggestions. Lots to do over the weekend.

I had them toed in at 45 deg as suggested by THX setup guide
 
two more thoughts; You should play with the width of your front set up. Trying moving the speakers closer together and further apart from each other in very small increments. In a smallish sound area like yours, you might be surprised that the L/R will need to be less than 6 ft apart. IMHO if you can point to the sound source with your eyes closed it isn't right! Most systems I've listened to have the L/R too wide and benefit greatly by moving them inward. Also, play with moving the speakers out from the wall a bit, you'll be surprised how much better the soundfield will be. I'd suggest trying this in stereo mode first and then adjusting into surround. FYI the manual for my KEF Q 900s call for 9" from the rear wall, and a max of 6' 10" apart.
 
Wow - thanks for taking the time to read and give me your thoughts Wookii - really appreciate it.

Unfortunately can't move the couch. Treatment panels sound interesting. I will do some research on it.

Get the sub before any of the above!! Keep the surrounds up high, not on stands.
Sub is definitely something to get soon (have a wanted thread and looking out on the bay for a BK Gemini or XXLS200 but these are quite hard to come by! Most probably will bite the bullet and buy a brand new Gemini next week).

Firstly, in a properly set up system you shouldn't be able to hear sounds from individual speakers - you should just have a seamless soundstage with sounds placed accurately within it, but not identifiable from a specific speaker.
That is quite interesting. So perhaps my setup is perfectly setup and is giving a seamless sound stage :smashin: :D

Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas! Experimentation seems to be the key and I will definitely spend the weekend moving things around to see what works well.
 
two more thoughts; You should play with the width of your front set up. Trying moving the speakers closer together and further apart from each other in very small increments. In a smallish sound area like yours, you might be surprised that the L/R will need to be less than 6 ft apart. IMHO if you can point to the sound source with your eyes closed it isn't right! Most systems I've listened to have the L/R too wide and benefit greatly by moving them inward. Also, play with moving the speakers out from the wall a bit, you'll be surprised how much better the soundfield will be. I'd suggest trying this in stereo mode first and then adjusting into surround. FYI the manual for my KEF Q 900s call for 9" from the rear wall, and a max of 6' 10" apart.

Thanks Jim. I had setup the fronts based on the guidelines given in the Wharfedale manual with regard to distances from the wall, from the tv and each other. But agree with you with regard to moving them around as those distances might have to differ based on my room size.
 
Keep the surrounds up high, not on stands.
Also wanted to say that if I move the 10.1s as rears mounting them high won't be an option as I can't drill the walls (rented property) and so will have to get some high (100cm+) stands
 

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