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Coronavirus talk - are people going over the top?

Ekko Star

Distinguished Member
The thing is, this is fundamentally not true.

Office workers & shop workers are not working.
Teachers and various others. Mostly places the public go to.

But millions of "normal" blue collar workers, who work in factories and other such jobs are still told to come in, and have to go to work if their boss says so.
If they don't go to work, they can have disciplinary action taken against you.

The government and media is ignoring these millions of people going to work as normal.
The just saying only go to work if it's ESSENTIAL.
And speak about nurses, police etc.
The media have talked about building workers.
But they are ignoring all the others.
Like myself, I have to go to work, exactly as normal as if nothing is any different.

We're being ignored.
I totally understand and sympathise. We've locked down the country and the key workers/blue collar like you are left to pick up the pieces.

They've decided to let most of the population to sit at home and let you guys be exposed. Its a game of stats.

If they had enough hospital beds in this country to cater for the spike to begin with there probably wouldn't be a lockdown anyway
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
7,000 people every week are diagnosed with cancer and it will kill more people. A lot of cancers are preventable, many are curable and it is not contagious but there is still a random chance of getting it. We haven't stopped the world until a cure is found or the risks are minimised. So far you know nobody who has had it or has died from it...fair enough, it could be you...but also you could be diagnosed with any number of random terminal illnesses or even have an accident and die. Like I said, there should be a major short term concentrated effort to minimise the impact of this sh*tty virus but not at the overall cost to society we're currently looking at.
Sorry but don't get your logic here and can't agree with you.
This it totally different due to the infection.
You don't have 1 person at work cough, and the whole workforce get cancer.

What bugs me is one group are being protected by the government, and another 'lower class manual labor?' group and being left to go to work as usual and put their potential lives in the hands of their boss's who run the companies.
The government just saying companies should stick to the advice means zero without harsh backup.
You force your workers to work within 2 meters of each other, give them a £10,000 fine.
That's make them take it seriously.

Also it's the "Essential" bit that's a joke.
If you were in a factory making face masks or ventilators, or hospital beds/equipment, then sure, 100% agree. Important to do all you can to keep that up and running.
But a factory making beach balls and flip-flops, can stay open as well.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
That was based on the predicted effects on the current shutdown working and the death toll being reduced to 20,000 from the 500,000 he predicted a week or so earlier. In total, in an unmitigated epidemic, we would predict approximately 510,000 deaths in GB

All the actions taken around the globe are based on predictions - everyone is flying blind in this apart from it seems the experts on AVF.
 

Solomon Grundy

Distinguished Member
Sorry but don't get your logic here and can't agree with you.
This it totally different due to the infection.
You don't have 1 person at work cough, and the whole workforce get cancer.

What bugs me is one group are being protected by the government, and another 'lower class manual labor?' group and being left to go to work as usual and put their potential lives in the hands of their boss's who run the companies.
The government just saying companies should stick to the advice means zero without harsh backup.
You force your workers to work within 2 meters of each other, give them a £10,000 fine.
That's make them take it seriously.

Also it's the "Essential" bit that's a joke.
If you were in a factory making face masks or ventilators, or hospital beds/equipment, then sure, 100% agree. Important to do all you can to keep that up and running.
But a factory making beach balls and flip-flops, can stay open as well.
Statistically you would not have 1 person cough and the whole workforce get the virus either...and also statistically it is unlikely any of you would die even if you did. That being said, your employer should be doing more, if not sending you home.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
I honestly despair, sod it, can’t cure all cancers at the minute, why bother trying. Could use that money elsewhere in fairness :(
But nobody is saying dont try - just that, as in all other cases, you take into account the cost.

For example the NHS regularly refuses to supply new cancer drugs due to the cost.

NICE decided that at a cost of £21,000 (US$33,362) per person per year, Avastin is too expensive for the NHS

and

A gamechanging immunotherapy drug that can extend the life of patients with advanced head and neck cancer has been turned down for use in the NHS because of its high cost.
 

Ekko Star

Distinguished Member
What bugs me is one group are being protected by the government'
Essentially there are 2 groups being 'protected' here.

Firstly it's the NHS because they don't have the capacity. We are still in winter really with all the usual ailments that brings and they just can't handle the additional spike of patients that Covid 19 brings. It was basically never in their forecasts.

Secondly, it's specifically the 6% of all the infected people that will statistically be the most vulnerable at any one time. That's not 6% of the nation, it's 6% of those that are currently infected. They may require Intensive Care of which we curently do not have the capacity.

The rest of us (excluding key workers/blue collar) can sit at home for 3 weeks while they get over it ( or sadly not) whatever the case maybe.

I also use the word 'protected' loosely because NHS staff have just been thrusts into it with a woeful lack of equipment and PPE to protect them.

The Govt has based all this off the Imperial College model. Their model indicates that there is enough infections in the country now that the 6% will exceed the amount of hospital beds there are and equipment in the next 2 weeks.

The stats indicate the timing and that's why we have been locked down right now.

However, Oxford University posted a model yesterday that says that over half the poulation has been exposed to this for months already. This thing has probably been going around since Dec/Jan.

The Oxford model does makes sense. Once we get the testing out then we will know for sure.
 

doug56hl

Distinguished Member
The point is there is no miracle cure to save you. Hospital or home doesn't matter. There is no magic pill.

The argument is the same for the one that was in hospital. The doctors couldn't save her anyway....
So in your view being on a ventilator or in intensive care in hospital is pointless as nothing can save people? And if these two people who died at home had managed to get into hospital care they would have died anyway? So the entire NHS effort is a waste of time? As are the ventilators?
 
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JimmyMac

Distinguished Member
that’s down to regulation of pharma to some extent and also the prohibitive cost of drug research

I’ve seen every side, worked in pharma with major companies and seen how it works.

aside from that though this is about the here and now. This is killing people and putting a price on it and what may come is wrong IMO. Work out the aftermath later, we will recover, this is anew battlefield and we need to conquer it

I’m seeing every side, wife dealing with patients Suffering. Mum with cancer at high risk, mother in law in her 80’s at high risk. I’m working my arse off to ensure food supplies continue all the while teaching my daughter from home.

At no point do any of us consider the economy and what might be because frankly that matters not right now, right now we have one focus, keep people alive.

Easy to be pragmatic from afar, not so easy up close where it’s actually happening

I wish people that want to debate the sense of what we are doing right now could just see what’s happening in our hospitals. See what our underpaid and understaffed
Doctors and nurses are doing for just 10 minutes and understand the frivolity of this discussion, knowing it gets worse before it gets bette

lives might as a consequence of what we do now. Lives will be lost however if we do not act right now
 

Ekko Star

Distinguished Member
So in your view being on a ventilator or in intensive care in hospital is pointless as nothing can save people? And if these two people who died at home had managed to get into hospital care they would have died anyway? So the entire NHS effort is a waste of time? As are the ventilators?
I think my point is perfectly clear. The people that can't be saved can't be saved. There is only so much anyone can do. Mother nature has her way.
 

Solomon Grundy

Distinguished Member
aside from that though this is about the here and now. This is killing people and putting a price on it and what may come is wrong IMO. Work out the aftermath later, we will recover, this is anew battlefield and we need to conquer it

I’m seeing every side, wife dealing with patients Suffering. Mum with cancer at high risk, mother in law in her 80’s at high risk. I’m working my arse off to ensure food supplies continue all the while teaching my daughter from home.
And if your wife was not at work and you were self employed, ineligible for any rescue money and facing no income? Would it change your perspective if I asked you to give up your home and lifestyle right now?
 

JimmyMac

Distinguished Member
And if your wife was not at work and you were self employed, ineligible for any rescue money and facing no income? Would it change your perspective if I asked you to give up your home and lifestyle right now?
answred that already,the choice betweenthe life of my parents, my wife, my daughter? Doesn’t need answer does it?

what would you sacrifice to save the life of your loved ones? Me, I’d give up anything, easiest thing in the world to answer

becuase that is happening right now

two months before this my mum was diagnosed with cancer. If you said I could save her but I’d lose my house, I’d take that, instantly

would you pick keeping you lifestyle and home and let them die?
 

Solomon Grundy

Distinguished Member
answred that already,the choice betweenthe life of my parents, my wife, my daughter? Doesn’t need answer does it?

what would you sacrifice to save the life of your loved ones? Me, I’d give up anything, easiest thing in the world to answer

becuase that is happening right now

two months before this my mum was diagnosed with cancer. If you said I could save her but I’d lose my house, I’d take that, instantly

would you pick keeping you lifestyle and home and let them die?
But you wouldn't voluntarily give it up to save the life of someone you don't know...which is a decision being enforced on tens of thousands of other people right now.
 

JimmyMac

Distinguished Member
But you wouldn't voluntarily give it up to save the life of someone you don't know...which is a decision being enforced on tens of thousands of other people right now.
Tell me it ends tomorrow and I’ll quit my job.

but hey, you enjoy the horse you sit in from upon high, watch the world burn if you must.

I’ll continue to pick up the pieces of what’s happening right now, what’s hitting my family right now in the hope that my wife comes through this safe and without having a break down. She’s training tomorrow by the way, she has to learn how to correctly wash bodies to prevent any further contamination from the dead before they are moved to the morgue. I’ll send her your regards and ask her to hurry along so it doesn’t impact the economy too much
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
aside from that though this is about the here and now. This is killing people and putting a price on it and what may come is wrong IMO. Work out the aftermath later, we will recover, this is anew battlefield and we need to conquer it
But do you accept that the actions taken to win this war will also kill people?.

Before I retired I was working in the Middle East alongside a lot of guys from the Indian sub-continent and Philippines. They were working there to support their entire families back home and if they lose their jobs, which unfortunately many are already, then their families have no money for food and in those countries there is no welfare state to step in and help them. So we could easily get to a situation where the cure is worse than the disease.
 

JimmyMac

Distinguished Member
But do you accept that the actions taken to win this war will also kill people?.

Before I retired I was working in the Middle East alongside a lot of guys from the Indian sub-continent and Philippines. They were working there to support their entire families back home and if they lose their jobs, which unfortunately many are already, then their families have no money for food and in those countries there is no welfare state to step in and help them. So we could easily get to a situation where the cure is worse than the disease.
Could, key wording for me

lot of admiration for the work you did there and fair play as i can only imagine that that was difficult to see. However right now that’s a possible outcome. What’s happening now is definitive, we must do all we can to save lives, that’s imperative IMO
 

JimmyMac

Distinguished Member
Think I’ll leave this thread now, apologies if I have come across too emotive but I honestly can’t see how anyone can debate the situation without actually seeing or experiencing what’s going on. This virus is non existent for many, people only see the changing figures on a website or the news force fed to us by the minute, it’s not a real picture. It’s not a tangible thing for many, I implore you to reach out and try to gain an understanding of what’s happening out there.

My wife is scared to death every time she leaves the house to go to work, but she goes regardless, she goes because she knows she must as she could be the difference in just one persons life. There is no price on that in her mind, every life is priceless
 

Solomon Grundy

Distinguished Member
Think I’ll leave this thread now, apologies if I have come across too emotive but I honestly can’t see how anyone can debate the situation without actually seeing or experiencing what’s going on. This virus is non existent for many, people only see the changing figures on a website or the news force fed to us by the minute, it’s not a real picture. It’s not a tangible thing for many, I implore you to reach out and try to gain an understanding of what’s happening out there.

My wife is scared to death every time she leaves the house to go to work, but she goes regardless, she goes because she knows she must as she could be the difference in just one persons life. There is no price on that in her mind, every life is priceless
My Sister in law is an ICU nurse on a coronavirus ward. She is also facing losing her home as her self employed husband's income disappears.
 
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BrightonChris

Distinguished Member
Driving to the Lake District to walk your dog is not an essential journey. Stay at home, that's what you have been asked to do, what is difficult about that too understand?
If you live in a busy town and your options are to walk amongst hundred people or drive 15 minutes and walk in complete seclusion then it would be prudent. These people are posing no risk to anyone.
 
If you live in a busy town and your options are to walk amongst hundred people or drive 15 minutes and walk in complete seclusion then it would be prudent. These people are posing no risk to anyone.
I guess the reasoning behind that is;
* A car journey uses fuel, requiring fuel will require further contact with people and touching other surfaces
* A car journey also introduces mechanical risk and one could require assistance of recovery or roadside repair services and thus contact with people
* A car journey also introduces accident risk and then increase the demand on emergency services and contact with people etc
And so on...

And there shouldn't be a busy town ;)

The guidance is clear, just walk from your home and stop trying to be 'clever' and find ways around it.
 

gangzoom

Well-known Member
Our ITU is starting to fill with COVID+ patients, in the last 12hrs there has been a 30% increase in patient numbers. The average age of those on ITU in our trust with COVID+ is 65 years old, 85% are men. ITU mortality is currently 50%.

Anyone who still thinks this virus is some how benign and can be ignored need to take their heads out of the sand.

We are about to start seeing the scenes in Italy/Spain replicated in NHS hospitals across the country.

The real impact of this virus is really about to hit :(.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Many of those cases now being hospitalised would have been prevented had the government introduced a lockdown earlier. Many of those cases that will be hitting the hospitals next week will have been prevented had the government been more stringent wit the rules it has applied.

I know that the building and allied trades make up a large part of the UK's enconomy but is it really worth more than human lives?


The first Doctor to die from the virus in the UK was announced this morning or he would have been the first if it could have been confirmed he had it. The reason that they cannot determine this is the fact he was never tested for it. WE've no idea who has it or who has been in contact with those who have it.
 
Many of those cases now being hospitalised would have been prevented had the government introduced a lockdown earlier. Many of those cases that will be hitting the hospitals next week will have been prevented had the government been more stringent wit the rules it has applied.

I know that the building and allied trades make up a large part of the UK's enconomy but is it really worth more than human lives?
Many of those cases would have been prevented if people took some responsibility and stayed at home themselves. #idiottourists etc.
 

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