Coronavirus - do you trust the UK Government to make the right decisions ?

Coronavirus - do you trust the UK government to make the right decisions?

  • Yes

    Votes: 102 31.4%
  • No

    Votes: 223 68.6%

  • Total voters
    325

Dr Force

Distinguished Member
What a predictable mess...shut down too late, opened up too early...then we get messages like “ aiming for normality by Christmas”...”go back to the office”.......2 weeks later.....oh errrrr be careful, we are at the limit of easing measures............my wife and I have been sat here watching all this unfold, with the simple understanding that a virus does not go away......opening pubs, beaches, restaurants, cinemas, gyms...etc etc......is a blindingly obvious way to kick the virus transmission rate back in to action. All the while people listen to those messages of optimism with a roll the dice (at the expense of you and I) government rhetoric............and it takes a news conference to address the nation to say it’s not working........WELL HELLO................

Its back to death rate v NHS v Economy, but not necessarily in that order..........batten down the hatches folks, this is going to get rough.
 

mcbainne

Distinguished Member
... for instance, from the the 10th of April until the 10th of May there were 22,000 deaths.

From the beginning of July until now there’s have been less than 2,000
And how does the 2000 compare to the devolved nations within the UK and other european countries over the same timescale?
 

iangreasby

Well-known Member
Are there any increases in deaths or hospitalisation to go with this alleged rise in infections?
The rise in infections is partly due to a large scale increase of testing asymptomatic people in the community. This was discussed on Newsnight earlier. I can't remember where it was, but testing officers were randomly knocking on doors, asking if people were willing to be tested. So, any increase in positive tests is very misleading as you are not comparing "like with like". However, "like for like" can be a lot more useful when comparing daily deaths, hospital admissions, 999 calls and 111 calls. In all of those the numbers are a fraction of what we were seeing 2/3 months ago.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
The fear people talk about is also emanating from No.10 now.

They have got themselves into a panic over what happens if things start going south again, and they are no longer thinking rationally.

You could attribute this to the fact they know that they have handled so many aspects of this crisis woefully, and there's going to be no escaping that in time. So they really don't want a re-run and to have even more deaths on their watch than they have already.

I'm surprised Chris Whitty's words weren't picked up on more today, although they may be in the coming days. It sounded very much to me like he was saying "this as good as it gets for now", and it's likely we're going to go back in the other direction again (in terms of restrictions).
 

iangreasby

Well-known Member
@richp007 I know we don't see eye to eye on this, but I do respect your comments. It appears to me that all parties are now running scared, government, scientific advisors and WHO officials. They are now more afraid of the consequences of a mistake, rather than trying to make the right, balanced decision. Many are exhibiting "rabbit in the headlight" signs, their body language does not look good. Boris and Matt Hancock, in particular, look totally out of their depth. Not that I was around during WW2, but I'm glad these two individuals weren't anywhere near the helm! Whatever happens with the pandemic, I think there will be a lot of changes in government personnel before too long. A few of them look totally exhausted and ready to be moved on.
 

realfrankturner

Well-known Member
I guess it's the potential of it getting a bit out of control again they are worried about, and that it is happening now and not in the winter months when it was anticipated.

What I don't get is if they are so worried then why are they letting people who are shielding go back to work now, surely if anything that would be the thing not to do if they think it is going to get worse.
 

realfrankturner

Well-known Member
I'm surprised Chris Whitty's words weren't picked up on more today, although they may be in the coming days. It sounded very much to me like he was saying "this as good as it gets for now", and it's likely we're going to go back in the other direction again (in terms of restrictions).
Yep, I linked couple articles saying the same thing. They are seeing what is happening elsewhere in Europe in infections and I think it's the potential of what could happen. They got accused of being too slow at the beginning and are trying not to make that mistake again I think.
 
Last edited:

realfrankturner

Well-known Member
The rise in infections is partly due to a large scale increase of testing asymptomatic people in the community. This was discussed on Newsnight earlier. I can't remember where it was, but testing officers were randomly knocking on doors, asking if people were willing to be tested. So, any increase in positive tests is very misleading
Is it? Were they testing so much more in every community where infections have risen? Are they doing it everywhere in every country where infections are going up? Leicester went into a lockdown with extra testing being done after I believe and the rates went down.

Has testing really increased that much in the last 3 weeks everywhere in Europe to really say it is misleading?

The timing of it happening as well makes sense with the lifting of certain things.

While I understand the argument with deaths and hospital admissions etc and that side of it, I do find the opinion of 'it's just more testing' to be quite a dismissive and potentially dangerous way to look at it.
 

Nick74

Well-known Member
The fear people talk about is also emanating from No.10 now.

They have got themselves into a panic over what happens if things start going south again, and they are no longer thinking rationally.
That would suggest they were thinking rationally previously.
  • It wasn't rational to prioritise the PM's divorce and family affairs over growing evidence of an accelerating pandemic.
  • It wasn't rational to sit on hands while all evidence from Italy and Spain made clear what was heading our way. No hindsight was necessary. We could all see what was happening.
  • It wasn't rational to discharge elderly patients to care homes, en masse, without testing, potentially seeding the virus among communities made up entirely of those at highest risk.
  • It wasn't rational to pluck magic numbers from thin air, over-promise, under-deliver, then manipulate statistics in ways that fell apart under the lightest scrutiny.
  • It wasn't rational to defend the actions of a chief advisor who ignored his own rules then concocted incredible explanations for his behaviour, undermining confidence in government during a national health emergency.
Sorry if that reads as though I'm criticising your post. I'm not. I simply see little evidence of circumspect thinking on the government's part from the very beginning.
 
Last edited:

Nick74

Well-known Member
Is it? Were they testing so much more in every community where infections have risen? Are they doing it everywhere in every country where infections are going up? Leicester went into a lockdown with extra testing being done after I believe and the rates went down.

Has testing really increased that much in the last 3 weeks everywhere in Europe to really say it is misleading?

The timing of it happening as well makes sense with the lifting of certain things.

While I understand the argument with deaths and hospital admissions etc and that side of it, I do find the opinion of 'it's just more testing' to be quite a dismissive and potentially dangerous way to look at it.
I agree, but I think we need to closely watch what happens with hospital admissions and fatalities, because at the moment there's thankfully little evidence of a spike in either.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
That would suggest they were thinking rationally previously.
  • It wasn't rational to prioritise the PM's divorce and family affairs over growing evidence of an accelerating pandemic.
  • It wasn't rational to sit on hands while all evidence from Italy and Spain made clear what was heading our way. No hindsight was necessary. We could all see what was happening.
  • It wasn't rational to discharge elderly patients to care homes, en masse, without testing, potentially seeding the virus among communities made up entirely of those at highest risk.
  • It wasn't rational to pluck magic numbers from thin air, over-promise, under-deliver, then manipulate statistics in ways that fell apart under the lightest scrutiny.
  • It wasn't rational to defend the actions of a chief advisor who ignored his own rules then concocted incredible explanations for his behaviour, undermining confidence in government during a national health emergency.
Sorry if that reads as though I'm criticising your post. I'm not. I simply see little evidence of circumspect thinking on the government's part from the very beginning.
Allow me to clarify. Much of their thinking before (which covers your points above) was irresponsible.

Now it appears to be becoming irrational.

If there's anything in the reports of closing pubs to open schools, then the plot is being lost.
 

Sammyez

Well-known Member
Allow me to clarify. Much of their thinking before (which covers your points above) was irresponsible.

Now it appears to be becoming irrational.

If there's anything in the reports of closing pubs to open schools, then the plot is being lost.
Oh dear...!

‘Pubs Could Shut For Schools To Reopen In September, Scientific Adviser Warns’

‘Pubs in England could have to be closed in order for schools to reopen next month, a scientist advising the government has warned’

Pubs Could Shut For Schools To Reopen In September, Scientific Adviser Warns — HuffPost UK
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Oh dear...!

‘Pubs Could Shut For Schools To Reopen In September, Scientific Adviser Warns’

‘Pubs in England could have to be closed in order for schools to reopen next month, a scientist advising the government has warned’

Pubs Could Shut For Schools To Reopen In September, Scientific Adviser Warns — HuffPost UK
Yeah I think that's also the same as Frank's link above.

Clearly just the thoughts of one adviser, but a troubling thought nonetheless.

Potentially chucking the hospitality sector under a bus again. And this time they probably won't come out. And I'm not sure Joe Public is going to be welcoming of such measures either.
 

Nick74

Well-known Member
Allow me to clarify. Much of their thinking before (which covers your points above) was irresponsible.

Now it appears to be becoming irrational.

If there's anything in the reports of closing pubs to open schools, then the plot is being lost.
Appreciate the clarification (as I say, I wasn't being critical).

Irrational, irresponsible or both, the government has handled this poorly from the outset, with a significant toll in terms of human lives.

There's inevitably a reactive element to government handling of a novel pandemic, but that observation doesn't excuse catastrophic management in terms of public health.

At the very least our government should have learned important lessons at this stage. Instead there's a danger it's heading into a tailspin.
 

fat jez

Distinguished Member
Potentially chucking the hospitality sector under a bus again. And this time they probably won't come out. And I'm not sure Joe Public is going to be welcoming of such measures either.
Somehow I think the reaction of Joe Public will be significantly greater than that of the hospitality industry. I don't think most would care too much if restaurants closed again, but close their pubs and there will be riots!
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Appreciate the clarification (as I say, I wasn't being critical).

Irrational, irresponsible or both, the government has handled this poorly from the outset, with a significant toll in terms of human lives.

There's inevitably a reactive element to government handling of a novel pandemic, but that observation doesn't excuse catastrophic management in terms of public health.

At the very least our government should have learned important lessons at this stage. Instead there's a danger it's heading into a tailspin.
I'll see your tailspin and raise you a crash and burning wreckage.

You're well aware that I echo your sentiments on this thing, but looking at the last few day's illogical behaviour and reasoning, I'm not sure even I could label the government entirely reckless at this point. More like being in a Corporal Jones state of panic over what's happening in Europe and may be about to happen here.

That's not going to give confidence to anyone, and business' must be extremely concerned once again about what's going to happen. With contributions to the furlough scheme starting today, are we really expecting struggling business' to survive more disruption?

Here's a little summary of what's changing with the furlough -

 

fluxo

Distinguished Member
Undoubtedly they are in panic mode now, likely given the realisation that their record is looking abysmal.

Therefore any rationality in terms of decision making has gone completely out the window.
I rather think the window itself is now being thrown out of the window. Which is tricky.
 

usako

Member
Somehow I think the reaction of Joe Public will be significantly greater than that of the hospitality industry. I don't think most would care too much if restaurants closed again, but close their pubs and there will be riots!
The pub problem could be solved with free beer parcels (Borisbrew) to the beer dependants, same way as the Government delivered food parcels to the shielded.
 

Nick74

Well-known Member
I'll see your tailspin and raise you a crash and burning wreckage.

You're well aware that I echo your sentiments on this thing, but looking at the last few day's illogical behaviour and reasoning, I'm not sure even I could label the government entirely reckless at this point. More like being in a Corporal Jones state of panic over what's happening in Europe and may be about to happen here.

That's not going to give confidence to anyone, and business' must be extremely concerned once again about what's going to happen. With contributions to the furlough scheme starting today, are we really expecting struggling business' to survive more disruption?

Here's a little summary of what's changing with the furlough -

The government risks junking the only well regarded aspect of its response, namely its handling of the economic fallout.

It's difficult to balance risks to public health and the economy (I accept that the two aren't mutually exclusive).

The problem is, there seems no consistent logic to the new raft of measures. As always, government communications have lacked clarity, spreading confusion and uncertainty (again bad for business).

The man behind the curtain was supposed to be a communications maestro; a tactical genius. Could this be Cummings' Wizard of Oz moment?
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
As per the line in your tweet link Steve, "Why do we not seem to have a plan for what to do when case numbers rise in an area? It just seems to be made up as we go."

Here's another thread analysis I came across earlier -

 

mark1080p

Well-known Member
Meanwhile in Germany
 

Sammyez

Well-known Member
Another example of putting a ‘protective ring’ around care homes? The incompetence continues...

‘Government 'drops pledge to test everyone in care homes for coronavirus'


‘The Government has abandoned a pledge to regularly test all people in care homes from this summer, it has been reported’

“Previously advised timelines for rolling out regular testing in care homes” were being axed because of “unexpected delays”, Professor Jane Cummings said.

‘The decision, which would throw into chaos the Government's test and trace system, appears to roll back on a promise of regular testing of nearly two million care home residents and staff. Testing was planned to start on July 6, but delayed, and Prof Cummings said that the earliest date by which it would reach all care homes was now September 7’

Government 'drops pledge to test everyone in care homes for coronavirus' — The Telegraph
 

The latest video from AVForums

Podcast: Samsung HW-Q950T Soundbar Review, Filmmaker Mode, Disney+ $30 for Mulan, AV news and more

Latest News

THX Spatial Audio app brings 360 degree sound to any headphone
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Xbox Series X November launch confirmed
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Xiaomi OLED is world’s first mass produced transparent TV
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Tron 3 lands star and director for Disney
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Kef announces KW1 Wireless Subwoofer Adapter
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Top Bottom