Contradictions in the five films

Discussion in 'Movie Forum' started by Nyquil Driver, Nov 30, 2002.

  1. Nyquil Driver

    Nyquil Driver
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    Hmmmm,

    I might be covering old ground here or I probably just missed something, but don't Phantom Menace and AOTC make a complete mockery of the old films?.

    I mean, if all the Storm-Troopers are actually clones of Jango Fett, then how come they all speak to each other with DIFFERENT voices?. Plus, if they've been trained so dilligently and were created specifically to be efficient soldiers, why are they so hopelessly inept in the original trilogy? (they seem like they couldn't hit a barn-door for christ's sake!).

    Also, how come Obi-Wan doesn't remember R2-D2 and why does he say his master was Yoda when we all know it was Liam Neeson (forget his characters name). Like I say, I imagine this stuff has been aired before (if not here then elsewhere), but I've only just re-watched Eps 4 & 5 for the first time in years and these plot-holes annoyed me.....
     
  2. KRRK

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    Jango fett, though, is a bit of a poor fighter all around. He is clumsy in the fight with Obi Wan and gets his head chopped off almost as soon as he starts to fight near the end. And he bumps his head on the door of slave1. I suspect he is a bit of a con artist and his reputation as a great fighter is purely his own invention.

    As for obi wan and yoda, in AOTC, it is mentioned that Yoda trains all jedi, to begin with, before they are given a master proper, so he could have been referring to this? Bit of a stretch?

    And, as for not remembering R2D2, Obi Wan has little to do with the droid in the first two films, and never actually 'owns' him. R2 units are common in the star wars universe, so it would be a little like expecting someone to remember owning, say a type of car owned by a friend 40 years ago?

    God, I need to get out more.
     
  3. Lex

    Lex
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    Everything about the two droids being in Episode 1/2/3 annoys me - it just makes it all too insestuous and coincidental - I mean C3PO just happens to crash on tattooine where he just happens to be bought by the son of his original maker - and even then he doesn't remember the planet, the house, Uncle Owen, or the name Skywalker! And Niether for that matter does R2-D2, although he does remember Obi-Wan :rolleyes:

    I don't think it was intentional that Jango Fett appeared to be a bad fighter - I think he was meant to be a bit of a bad-ass warrior, I mean he was out there trying to assasinate Amidala and take on the Jedis.
     
  4. Nyquil Driver

    Nyquil Driver
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    KRRK- Some interesting ideas there, but they all push credibility into the red IMO. I agree with Lex about Jango as I'm pretty sure he was supposed to be competent on the whole. He managed to get Obi-Wan over the edge of that platform and succesfully pursued him in a spacecraft aswell (obviously he didn't actually kill him, but his tactics/aim were sound).

    The Yoda/Obi-Wan stuff is certainly shakey ground, although your take on it would be acceptable if they'd hammered it home more in Eps 1 & 2. It's more the fact that Obi-Wan says it as though ONLY Yoda was his master that fouls things up really (and I appreciate that no-one was thinking ahead to the prequels when they filmed those scenes).
    More good points!. Those are exactly the kinds of things that make watching Eps 4,5 & 6 a slightly irritating experience at the moment.

    It'll be interesting to see how Lucas tackles all these continuity errors in Episode 3 (if he bothers) as it's possible that he's planning to alter the original trilogy again instead. As an example, he might be planning to have the voices of the Storm-troopers re-dubbed by the actor who played Jango Fett.

    Whatever the case, there are certainly too many inconsistencies and contrivancies as things stand...
     
  5. FoxyMulder

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    I have this nagging feeling that ive spent money on the star wars DVDs and theyre going to be replaced with special editions in a few years time, after all why complete the special effects scenes and add them onto a disc as deleted scenes unless george was planning to make yet more money by re-releasing them as special editions with extra scenes intact and onto another point, i wish DTS had been an option for the DVDS
     
  6. Lex

    Lex
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    :confused: They haven't been released yet.
     
  7. KRRK

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  8. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    WARNING: SPOILERS FOLLOW.

    C3PO is obviously a fairly standard model of robot - you can see other machines like him in various scenes.

    I reckon Jango Fett is about as bad-ass a fighter as you'll get short of someone who has been trained as a Jedi or Sith. And of course Jedi and Sith require many more years of training than was a possibility for the cloned army, and skill with the Force is probably precluded by the changes made to the clones' psychology.

    One thing which really gets me is people's ages. Back in "The Phantom Menace" Anakin is, what, 8 years old? And Obi-Wan is clearly still a young man - perhaps 23 at the oldest, probably younger. We know that episode 3 happens only about 2 years after episode 2, which in turn is about 10 years after episode 1. We also know that Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader happens in episode 3. That means that Luke and Leia must have been conceived when Anakin was no older than 20, born when he was no older than 21.

    Now flash forward to episode 4. Luke is clearly a very young man - still playing with model spaceships, complaining about not being allowed to go into town to pick up power convertors. I'd put him no older than 18 or 19. That would make Vader about 40, which is fine - but it would also mean that Obi-Wan cannot be any older than 55. Alec Guiness was actually about 70 when that film was made, and there's no question at all that Obi-Wan is very much an old man by then - Vader taunts him as such ("your powers are weak, old man"), and even Obi-Wan himself admits "I'm getting too old for this sort of thing."
     
  9. Lex

    Lex
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    Also in reference to age - Yoda seems inconsisten in his appearance.
    In Episode VI he says he is 900 years old.
    In Episode I he looks young, by Episode II (10 yrs later) he has aged drastically, and in Episode V he has aged drastically again. That means he looks normal (middle-aged) for about 860 years, and then suddenly becomes really old in the space of forty years. :confused:
     
  10. LeighM

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    Once the clone war was over perhaps there are no clones left + no way to make more so the empire just recruited normal people, which would explain why they had different voices.
     
  11. KRRK

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    And...if Darth Vader obviously knows that Luke is his son, how come he does not know Leia is his daughter? I would presume that the force is strong with her, as we are told this later on, so how come he can put his hand on her shoulder in A New Hope and feel nothing?
     
  12. Geezer

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    This thread really got me thinking, and there are one hell of a lot of plot holes. Very interesting reading
     
  13. bishman

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    OK, for what it's worth, here are my views on the points in this thread.

    I mean, if all the Storm-Troopers are actually clones of Jango Fett, then how come they all speak to each other with DIFFERENT voices?.
    I believe that George will probably re-dub the old films, but they may have run out of clones.

    Plus, if they've been trained so dilligently and were created specifically to be efficient soldiers, why are they so hopelessly inept in the original trilogy? (they seem like they couldn't hit a barn-door for christ's sake!).
    I often wondered this even before the prequels. When Obi-Wan and Luke find the slaughtered Jawas, Obi says that the blast marks are too accurate for sand people and only imperial storm troopers could have done it. Ooooh, a thought just occured. Don't forget that on the death star, they let them escape so that they coud track them to the hidden rebel base. Maybe they were all under a standard order not to kill the films leading characters?!

    Also, how come Obi-Wan doesn't remember R2-D2 and why does he say his master was Yoda when we all know it was Liam Neeson (forget his characters name).
    There are lots of R2 units and he only says that he doesn't remember owning one. Remember, Luke tells him that he belongs to an Obi-Wan Kenobi. As for the Yoda/Qui Gon thing, I agree that Obi_wan was just keeping things simple.


    Jango fett, though, is a bit of a poor fighter all around. He is clumsy in the fight with Obi Wan and gets his head chopped off almost as soon as he starts to fight near the end. And he bumps his head on the door of slave1. I suspect he is a bit of a con artist and his reputation as a great fighter is purely his own invention.
    This just really made me chuckle. Jango the Grifter!

    Everything about the two droids being in Episode 1/2/3 annoys me - it just makes it all too insestuous and coincidental - I mean C3PO just happens to crash on tattooine where he just happens to be bought by the son of his original maker - and even then he doesn't remember the planet, the house, Uncle Owen, or the name Skywalker! And Niether for that matter does R2-D2, although he does remember Obi-Wan
    R2 doesn't necessarily remember Obi-Wan, he was under orders from Leia to deliver the message to him. The droids not remembering is most likely due to a memory wipe. In episode 4, uncle Owen told Luke to take the R2 unit to get it's memory erased. Owen and Beru I belive to remember R2 as they exchange glances when Luke mentions Obi-Wan, that is when Owen tells him to go get it erased.

    I would also suggest that the droids get their memories erased in part to protect Luke and Leia's identities.

    I have this nagging feeling that ive spent money on the star wars DVDs and theyre going to be replaced with special editions in a few years time, after all why complete the special effects scenes and add them onto a disc as deleted scenes unless george was planning to make yet more money by re-releasing them as special editions with extra scenes intact and onto another point, i wish DTS had been an option for the DVDS
    You are probably right. The thing is, as unlikely as it sounds. I don't think that George is only be bothered about making money. If that was the case, he would have cashed in with a release of the original trilogies by now.


    And...if Darth Vader obviously knows that Luke is his son, how come he does not know Leia is his daughter? I would presume that the force is strong with her, as we are told this later on, so how come he can put his hand on her shoulder in A New Hope and feel nothing?
    Leia does not know how to channel the force. Vader only encounters Luke after he has started training with Obi-Wan. Maybe he can't detect that someone is strong in the force unless they have started to learn about it?



    All the speculation of the characters ages is too much for me. I think at some point even the most hardcore of us have to realise that it is only a series of films. Even the original trilogy are hardly literary classics, just good clean fun.

    And on the subject of the original trilogy, perhaps someone can explain something that has always bugged the hell out of me, since I first saw A New Hope at eight years old.

    When the death star is going to blow up the rebel base, it comes up on it behind Yavin. It then spends something like 30 minutes going around the planet before it attempts to blow up the moon. Why the hell don't they just blow up yavin and then blow up the moon? Or just as easy, come out of hyper space on the other side of the planet so that the damn thing isn't in the way in the first place.

    I just don't get it, evil works in mysterious ways. I guess it's along the lines of the bond villains always explaining the plot and just leaving Bond to an assumed death.
     
  14. KRRK

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    Hmmm, maybe the death star needs time to re-charge after blowing a planet up, so destroying the moon is not an option. As for appearing behind a planet, well, perhaps hyperspace can only be done in a straight line (technical term) so perhaps it had to stop when it when it came to Yavin? Like an inetergalactic stop sign? And maybe there was an imperial speed camera hidden behind it as well?

    I would love to have seen the Death Star actually go into hyperspace, though, that would have been cool.

    George has my permission to add this scene.

    On the subject of messing about, as far as I am concerned the original trilogy was ruined for me with those special editions anyway, so he can do what he likes with them, as long as the original versions appear in some legal shape or form.

    Actually, I think when the films were released they became public property, and George has no more right to meddle with them than you or me. He got pretty upset with those fans edits of Phantom Menace.

    So he can do what he likes, as long as he does not suppress the original versions, warts and all.


    IMHO of course...
     
  15. NicolasB

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    That's simply a question of scale. Alderaan (which you see being destroyed earlier) is a planet that is of comparable size and composition to earth. Yavin, on the other hand, is a gas giant, more closely resembling Jupiter. The firepower of the Death Star is vast, but it's not unlimited. As for your alternative suggestion, all I can say is: "Travelling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy. Without precise co-ordinates we'd fly right through a star or bounce us into a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick wouldn't it!"
     
  16. Lex

    Lex
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    Forget all that - the biggest problem with the end of Star Wars is the fact that Han & Leia, aware that they "are being tracked" by the Empire fly straight to the secret rebel base! :eek:
     
  17. Geezer

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    Very good :D but probably quite accurate
     
  18. KRRK

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    Yes, and they want the Death Star to follow them, as they have plans, hidden in R2D2 that might, just, reveal a weak spot.

    Ohhh, hang on, it probably would be better tactics to lead it somewhere else....but then it is Han's ship?
     
  19. KRRK

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    And another thing....

    The rebel fleet, vastly reduced in numbers after the Death Star battle, takes of in Empire for the Rendevouz. When we eventually see the fleet in Jedi, there are hundreds of types of ships. Where did they all spring from?
     
  20. Nyquil Driver

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    KRRK- You started off trying to defend supposed plot-holes, but now you've probably pointed out more irregularities than anyone else!.

    Clearly, the logic of these films is highly dubious and in the case of the older 3, you could be kind and say that fantasy films aren't supposed to be steeped in common-sense anyway. So, even though the characters may do things that seem silly or tactically inept, the fact is that the movies work better that way and you can't really moan about plausibility when there are Ewoks and Kenobi's ghost knocking about too.

    Glaring factual errors are completely unnecessary though and that's why Lucas does deserve criticism. He had all that time to write the prequels and he still came up with stories that fail to tally satisfactorily with the originals. Yes, it's petty to moan about the ages/connections of the main characters, but if NicolasB and other fans can work out how old Obi-Wan Kenobi is supposed to be then I don't see why George can't.

    Saying all that though, some of the explanations offered in this thread aren't all that bad. 'Running out of clones' is a good enough reason in itself, but I'm sure that George wants us to believe that all the Storm-Troopers in the original trilogy are actually identical. IIRC he says something along those lines in the commentary (for Ep2), as he refers to the famous 'Storm-Trooper banging his head' incident, and tries to make an association with Jango's ship-entering clumsiness (so presumably the head-banging is genetic). So, although you could maybe explain away a few of the plot-holes, I think ol' George would disagree with your suggestions (despite them being better than his own!).

    I don't want to come across like a Lucas hater or anything, it's just that he could have written anything he liked so there was absolutely no reason to contradict the other movies. He might sort a few things out in Ep3 of course, although I think he'll probably just raise further questions.

    I've enjoyed reading all of the other 'Why?' plot-points though and I can't understand how I failed to notice any of them myself!....
     
  21. KRRK

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    But plot holes, and outlandish explanations, are all part of the fun of the films, I think. I can't think of any other series of films that has more scope for invention.

    As for the yoda ageing so much over 40 odd years, well, one minute he is king of all he surveys, gliding around on comfortable little floaty platforms and the like, the next, he is hiding out in a mud puddle. That would age anyone.
     
  22. bishman

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    Yoda may well have aged greatly but I tell you this much, when 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not.
     
  23. godzilla

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    "Yoda may well have aged greatly but I tell you this much, when 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not."

    ROFLMAO!!:D
     
  24. mr chadwick

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    that was quality mate!!!:D :D
     
  25. BadAss

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    Ill put money on GL changing the puppet in TFM in favour of CG to bring the two film in line. The puppet in TFM looks terrible.
     
  26. titan

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    I agree with baddass i think and hope that he'll replace that godawful puppet. digital yoda is way cooler.

    as for the rebbelion getting a lot of ships for the final assault on the second deathstar, they all came from the newly recriuted mon-calimari (admiral akbar etc.)
     

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