Considering your first projector? Read this!!

Hello Monkeychops

Apologies if the thread has veered a little off topic - this does tend to happen I'm afraid!!

I'm a great believer in buying somewhere in the middle of dirt cheap and high-end which is I suppose where the Panny sits. I think when putting things together on a budget it's worth trying to get a good idea of where it is best to spend your money. In my case, I've gone with a 720p with the intention of upgrading to 1080p in a couple of years. However, now that I own it, and having seen HD material running on it, I feel that it's unlikely that I'll replace it until it starts falling apart on me. The old adage of 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' is a good rule of thumb. In my case, this whole project started out as something for way into the future. At the point at which I was going to go ahead, 1080p resolution would be standard, a winner would have emerged in the format war, and the new sound formats would be well embedded with loads of compatible amps available, plus HDMI would have settled on a specification and all HDMI equipment would function perfectly together.

Obviously things have happened quicker than expected for me as I just couldn't wait for 2 or 3 years. As it happens, I've managed to make the new setup work with my 3.5 year old surround system - so no speaker / amp costs there. In fact, as I've said before in this thread, to upgrade this side of things, I could be looking at say £500 for something that the 'experts' would describe as half decent, but why bother when my current set up already seems fine? Plus, if I go the HD-DVD route, and continue to output to my current system through optical, then the HD-DVD player will convert it automatically to maximum bitrate DTS - so it will be like a free upgrade!!

Back to what I said above "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", and working to a budget. What we are all basically after is a 'seamless' experience - with nothing to distract us from the pleasure of viewing. As far as sound goes, well, we've been listening to excellent sound for years now, it's not rocket science. The move from mono or stereo sound to proper Dolby or DTS Digital surround is huge, and I think that any subsequent upgrade is going to be marginal. As an example, I have 6.1 surround sound, but whether this is really any better than 5.1 I'm never sure. I'd say if you have even a moderate 5.1 set up then this will be fine for you. In all honesty, it is the picture performance that has been the most elusive over the years. CRT's obviously don't go above 36", and I personally don't believe that either plasma or LCD offer a 'seamless' experience - with either technology there are too many distracting picture issues for it to be truly satisfying. Hence, this is why the pj has been such a revelation, giving a picture of such size and beauty. And it is at these really large sizes that I think again that the limitations of DVD start to prevent the experience once again from being seamless - and why I am seriously stepping up to HD-DVD shortly.

Basically, I'd advise anybody starting from scratch on a budget to research all they can to find the projector that fits their needs best. There really is no substitute for arming yourself with lots of knowledge, of the products, the connections you'll require, the limitations of your environment etc etc. Never rely on a salesman to answer your questions for you, by the time you come to buy you should know more about this stuff than he does. If surround sound is required, there is no harm in picking up an all in one DVD surround system for a couple of hundred quid and then you have the DVD and the surround sound covered (just make sure it has an optical or coaxial input so that if you were to upgrade to HD-DVD in the future, you could still use the surround system with it, and also that it has an appropriate output to connect it to the pj). Also, a screen may give better performance, but like I say, I and many others are projecting onto a wall or a home made screen and we're not lying when we say that if done properly, the results are excellent!! I watch without ever thinking that the picture is even slightly compromised - if it is, I'm best off not knowing about it and saving myself the cost of a proper screen!!

Whilst it's easy to keep upping the budget and convincing yourself that you need better and better equipment, perhaps being told that "if you buy this or that projector, you'll definitely want to upgrade your sound system too", the truth is I reckon that it's possible to put together a very fine system for not much over a grand. Grab yourself a pj and a home cinema system and you're more or less sorted!!
 
Monkeychops!

If, like me, you don't have a spare arm and a leg to throw at your home cinema, you might like to know about my set-up.

I got interested after seeing my son's optoma, an all-in device with a built-in DVD player. Then I researched, and read reviews. I plumped for the BenQ W100, which had a rave review and was on sale at £400 from Pixmania. This is a DLP machine, but it has a sevenfold wheel, whereas most of them have but four. This is said to eliminate the rainbow effect entirely, and I must say I have never noticed anything like it. The picture is far, far better than my 32 inch LCD TV has ever managed. It is, in fact, amazing. The native resolution is not high, but somehow it is supposed to be "HD ready", and will accept 720p happily from my unpscaling DVD player (Aldi, £40). I bought a 6ft screen from ebay, a Draper, which I think is a good make, for £45.

For surround sound, you can spend whatever you like. I opted for a £60 Mustek system, which has amazed my audiences, but I dare say they would be still further amazed if you spent ten, twenty or thirty times as much.

But my whole system came in at less than £600, and we are utterly delighted with it, mocking those titchy little plasmas we see in the shops ..... :thumbsup:
 
Brilliant, thanks for your replies, chaps. Incidentally I too am looking at the Benq W100 as a first pj purchase. Although I hadn't actually given much thought to sound/speakers, thinking that the visual improvement from a 28 inch 4:3 crt telly to a projected picture of around 1.5 - 2m wide would be enough for starters. Plus a lot of the stuff I plan to watch would be .avi files thru a Yamada divx dvd player (so basic stereo sound only).

I have a feeling that last sentence may raise a few eyebrows, but it's what I'm planning...
 
Monkey Chops

I agree with the last poster, this BenQ could happily service all your home cinema needs for very little cost. Just a couple of things to bear in mind:

The 7 speed colour wheel will help to reduce the rainbow effect compared to a slower one, but it will not eliminate it entirely for all people. You still need to check first whether you're rainbow sensitive.

It is not HD-Ready, rather HD-compatible, which means that it will accept the HD signal and scale it down to it's native resolution. To be HD-Ready it must be at least 720p in native resolution, amongst other things. However, I wouldn't worry too much about this, as I've seen the Optoma DV10 in action which is 480p and it looked great!! Another point to remember is that the great picture quality benefits of HD are more as a result of the higher quality information in the signal, rather than simply the increased resolution. Thus, all other things being equal, you'll probably find that a 1080p HD-DVD scaled down to 480p would look a lot better than a 480p DVD (NTSC) upscaled to 1080p!!!! So you could still upgrade to HD-DVD if you got the urge and benefit with greater picture quality!! (Of course, the best way to appreciate HD-DVD would be on a 1080p projector, but that isn't the point of the thread).
 
Thansk StuartB21 for your excellent posts and to MonkeyChops and others for the responses. Having said that I am thinking seriously about the Hitachi PJ series, please now add a late contender....namely the Sanyo PLV Z3! In fact, I am off for a demo tomorrow here in Northern Ireland which outside of Belfast isn't exactly blessed with Home Cinema shops! However, our local independent has this month, bitten the bullet and has built a massive extension to house nothing but great Hi-Fi separates and a Home Cinema demo room! Whilst stock is still limited, he swears by the ageing Sanyo Z3. Now according to all the info available on the web, it has been superceded twice. However, if the Z3 was supposedly a 5 star machine and the Z5 is only a 4 star (depending on which mag you read) am I really going to tell the difference? For instance, I have Arcam Delta separates together with custom built speakers and old B&W DM110s for the rear and last year picked up my Yamaha DSP E800 surround processor. Now, this works alongside your existing Hi-Fi separates but whilst the age of my system is now in the region of over 10 years (excluding the say 3 year old Yamaha), the cost of it all would be in the lower thousands. Has Hi-fi really improved that much in the last few years? I don't think it has. My current system really still rocks! The point I am making is that for a newbie entering the PJ market, if I am offered a Z3 tomorrow at a price under £900, would spending an extra couple of hundred to get the Z5 be really worth it( NB postage to Norn Iron is different to the mainland.....they can charge almost another £100 for the service)?
I suppose if you have the Hitachi PJTX100/200 versions, would there really be so much of a difference with the TX300 that not only is it that noticeable, you just have to sell the existing model in order to upgrade?
Black and white is no way as good as colour etc but with a machine that is 2 years old, has the technology really made leaps and bounds that only a Z5 or TX300 will suffice? Any thoughts would be welcomed.
Also, can a purpose built screen such as a Beamax be that far superior to a wall that has been TLC'd with the right amounts of undercoat and matt white paint?
I do expect quality in Hi-Fi and video but when you are talking budget/lower end of the market for a PJ and screen what can you get away with without going mad? Any answers please!!!
 
Thanks for the info. The Benq w100 is definitely the current front runner. I'm planning to take the wife for a demo next weekend at Sevenoaks. Unfortunately the closest they've got to the w100 is the Infocus in72, which I believe would be pretty similar, especially to newbies like me and her.

Actually I've already seen the in72 in action when I went by myself to look at a demo, but I'd already been sold on the idea of getting a projector.

Interesting to hear your thoughts on High Def. It's still too new a technology for me to consider (not being an early adopter) so isn't really a consideration at the moment. But I'm surprised (but pleased) to hear that a HD source would look better on a 480 native pixel device like the w100...
 
Dear Mr Monkeychops! Re the HD thing, for me it is now important that the PJ is HD ready. I fully intend (subject to Mr Murdoch reducing the price for existing customers) to go HD. However, if you can't be too worried on this issue and only want to watch Standard Def (SD) TV and DVDs then the BenQ sounds a very good proposition. I didn't buy an HD Ready TV last year but went for a hybrid instead (the fantastic P50 from Sharp) so that I could get the most from an SD broadcast. I could and will use this TV for HD pictures as it can accept the signal and do an upscale. By all accounts on this forum, it does it very well indeed. So, if the BenQ can do similar from a PJ point of view but isn't fully HD, it sounds to me that this is the machine for you. Horses for courses and all that! It's worth also reading the excellent thread for the Optoma HD70 machine. It is about £650 but is fully HD...and also DLP which is another subject altogether!
Martin
 
Martin

I think the point you made about your sound system is a valid one. I kind of aluded to this in one of my previous posts, in that we are no strangers to quality sound, as we've been listening to CD's for many years and like you say how much of a difference is there between this years and last years models? When I bought my Arcam separates about 6 years ago I paid about a grand including speakers. The speakers I bought were £200 a year ago and were What Hi-Fi's award winners in this price bracket in that year. In other Hi-fi shops I was being offered this years best £200 speakers for £200, but I bought last years from Richer Sounds for £50!!! And I bet I'd not be able to tell them apart!! Also. at the same time one of my mates spent about £300 on some really cheap separates from Richer Sounds, yet when I lstened to it, I found it hard to honestly say that my £1,000 system was any better!!

In terms of the projector however, i'd just be a little careful, as the abilities of projectors to produce a really good image at large sizes has been improving rapidly with each generation. In particular, LCD projectors up until a few years ago were seen as a cheaper option to the clearly superior (in picture quality) DLP projectors. However, great strides have been made in the past few years such that now neither technology taken as a whole is absolutely superior to the other.

I think in fairness to the Z3 (and I must reiterate that until about 5 months ago I knew nothing about projectors, so ther there are people here that know far more than me) LCD had already made great strides up to thi point, and so I think that there may not be that much difference between thi sand the Z5. However, some improvements have been made in this time with regards to some of the issues with LCD eg greater black levels, much reduced vertical banding.

I think the thing that I would be most concerned about is that you say you've been offered the Z3 for less than £900. If you search the popular projectors retailers websites (Roy Jowett, Krish, Ivojo) you should see that the current generation are selling for only a little over £900, and some have stocks of the previous generation (Z4 etc) for less still. As a guide, prices for the previous generation (PTAE-900, Z4, PJTX200) were going down to about £800 when the current generation such as the Z5 were imminent.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that £900-ish for a machine that is 2 generations old seems a little high, but if you go in armed with a little knowledge of what Z4's & Z5's etc are being sold for then if you like what you see maybe you will be able to knock him down a bit further? It could very well be that the improvements in 2 generations won't be that critical to you. I think that your own eyes are always the best guide, if it looks good to you, it is good!!

As far as the 'painted wall' scenario goes, well, I've ended up projecting onto one. I was going to use the wall just to decide what size of screen to get, but I've been so happy with the results that I'm sticking with it. If you start from the point that it will definately give good results then if you decide you want to get a screen somewhere down the line, you can spend a few hundred quid then. I think you'll probably find the wall does a decent job. Hint - I use Dulux Roasted bracken 5 and this gives a fine picture, although I'm biased as my room was this colour from long before I had a projector!! Amongst those painting a screen from scratch, Dulux Clouded Slate 3 is a popular choice. It's a grey colour so gives slightly darker blacks than a white screen. Another option would be to go with white. Whichever colour you choose, get it in a matt finish.
 
Stuart,
Thanks for picking up re the £900 price tag. What you posted were my thoughts anyway BUT as I now live in Northern ireland we are not too blessed with decent HIFI/Visual shops. Belfast is 60 miles away and then I think there are only 2 retailers that would offer PJs. To go on the internet and order from Sean (the Scoobydoc) or Roy etcetc on the mainland would be ideal. Over here, however, we are often charged silly money for having items couriered. Even though we are in the UK, there is the small contention of crossing a sea! Still, we can't have everything...incredible scenery, amazing golf courses and on the downside.....Rain! So, in this instance, whilst a Z4/Z5 are going for around the same money on the mainland, if it goes wrong, the courier costs could be a major problem. I also now appreciate the genuine views and help from the excellent local indie retailer. Whilst cost is what it is all about, if the market dictates that all is available from him is the BenQ100, the Z3 and a £2000 Yamaha, then I have a choice. Do I stick with the retailer for current and future assistance or go via the web? On the mainland, I would go for the latter if the local bod couldn't do a good deal. Over here, it is more of the former....currently! I am just hoping that he will offer an even better deal tomorrow!
I have made a note of your Dulux suggestions. I have also read somewhere on the forum your point re grey paint making the blacks blacker. I take it Magnolia isn't brilliant for PJs!!!!!! The idea of painting some kind of board say Clouded Slate could well be a brilliant and cheap option. I'll post again tomorrow my thoughts on the demo and will also ask for a BenQ 100 to be added to the test. I like the LCDs better than DLPs because of the rainbow effect. Funnily enough, it took me nearly 10 mins to see this effect whilst the salesman said he could see them all the time. Maybe it's my contact lenses that has a built in Rainbow effect filter!!!!
 
Martin

I fully appreciate all your points regarding being 'across the sea'. I'd be stewing on all the same points as you, in your position.

One quick point to note - just check whether you get a free lamp voucher with the Z3. I believe the Z5 comes with one, so when you need a new lamp this adds up to about £200 (I haven't checked the exact price of a replacement bulb for this model, may be more or less than this).

Another point to note, some retailers such as Roy Jowett will pixel check your projector for you to ensure there are no dead pixels - so one thing less to worry about.

Regarding rainbows, when I had my first demo, I remarked to the salesman that I couldn't see them and he was adamant, if I didn't see them now , I never would. However, 10 mins later, throw some black and white fast moving material on the screen, and they're everywhere!! Like i said before, it's best to go in forewarned about these issues rather than rely on what the salesman is telling you!!

Good luck
 
Stuart,
Having now seen the rainbow effect (and like you it was a fast moving material), I can see why to some it is a major problem if seen all the time. I did ask last week if there was a scheme in operation for a free bulb. The salesman replied that there used to be and will see if there is a time limit on whatever paperwork he can find for tomorrow. Will keep you posted on my "test". Incidentally, I will be taking my own DVDs that i know very well. One is the Battle of Britain for the opening scenes (the fast moving Spits and colour plus also the night time bombing....ummm to guage the greys and blacks!) the other being Batman Begins again for the dark sequences. Thanks,
Martin
I'll also ask the shop if they can do a Roy Jowett re the pixels! Good point, thanks.
 
Well well well! The demo was between the Z3 and the Yamaha 530 which was originally £2K. I was told that both machines were on the optimum settings, and whilst the blacks were slightly better on the Yamaha (dlp). the colours and sharpness and info were better on the Z3. In fact, at times, the Yanaha looked washed out. I have also asked for the retailer to supply quotes re the Z4 (which he claims was thought inside the industry to be an inferior model) AND THE z5.
MARTIN
 
Good luck

I've never seen any of the Sanyos in action but certainly from the mounains of posts I've read in these forums and elsewhere, I'd never gotten the opinion that the Z4 was anything other than extremely highly regarded.
 
Ref some comments in pic quality between the Z3/Z4 and TX100/TX200 etc.

Whereas the Z3/TX100 are still very good machines they did introduce new panels on the Z4/TX200 (D5 panels) which resulted in reduced "screen door effect".

I said at the time that if you already had a Z3/TX100 it probably wasn't worth the money to upgrade, but if buying new the extra few hundred quid was worth it for the newer generation machines.

I haven't seen the even newer gen machines (Z5/TX300) but I think they are still based only he same panels as the previous gen machines.
 
Hi there

Had my AX for about 2 months now, very happy with it. I have posted earlier in this thread my thoughts on whether to let the DVD player or the Panny do the upscaling - and I said that after a little comparison that both seemed about the same. For the record, I have the Sony DVP-NS76H DVD player. I just kind of settled on outputting 576p from the player and letting the Panny do the upscaling, as it is very highly rated for its scaling, so I assumed it would do a better job than a budget upscaling DVD player.

I seem to have become more aware recently of the flaws in DVD's. I'd put this down to my latest obsession of going HD, and wanting to find fault with what I had. The pictures whilst fine have seemed a little ill-defined, perhaps even suffering a little ghosting around the images. I've read in another post of a possible issue that the Panny has with ghosting, and that it can be solved by switching manually through the aspect ratios, but this hasn't helped. This made me think that it's just down to the limitations of DVD at large sizes, and the MPEG2 codec used.

Last weekend however, tried to watch 'Cars' and the picture just wasn't doing it for me. Watched Superman Returns last night and again it wasn't great, ended up reducing the screen size. I can kind of understand it with Superman as I've heard that the DVD transfer isn't the best. However, Cars should be almost flawless being all CG, so I did some experimenting tonight. Switched the DVD player to output 720p, and tried them again. This has made a huge difference to both discs, no ghosting, everything is as sharp as DVD is meant to be!!

I'm very happy about this, just a little surprised as I was certain that the Panny would do a better job than the DVD player.
 
I've had 3 DLP Projectors. All Benq. Only the budget one exhibited "rainbows" to a greater degree, it was the PE5120. When I upgraded to a PE7700, the rainbows became hardly noticeable. You would only sometimes see them if you were watching the movie, and then suddenly flicked your eyes to look away from the screen (say at the missus). Generally, when focused on the screen, they are never seen. The PE8720 I now own is even better. Rainbows are very seldom seen. And the rainbow thing is not as bad as most people imagine.

Seriously, if it was that bad, then they wouldn't be able to sell any of these DLP projectors. I would say test view any projector you are interested in.

I've seen DLP and LCD Projectors. In my opinion, the DLP offerered the best picture and colour.

Another thing that I find quite strange, is on some people suggesting DLP is tiring to watch, with visible refresh. DLP's refresh rate is 300Hz. That's very high, and I have never (with all the machines I have owned) ever got tired eyes from watching it for many hours at a time. In my opinion, there has never been any visible refresh with a DLP projector. I would question whether a setting on these other projectors or the input source is at fault?
 
Hope you haven't taken anything I've said as being anti-DLP. Just tried to give a bit of advice based on my own experiences. Like I've said already, both technologies are fantastic, the best idea is to test drive a few before purchase to see what works best for you.

Piccies coming soon!!
 
Hope you haven't taken anything I've said as being anti-DLP.



I have to admit I have. Ive watched a dlp in sevenoaks for a bit, I noticed slight rainbows when turning to chat, it didnt bother me as much as I thought, they are seeable but I htought it would totally destroy the image, anyway now after reading about the headaches I see every reason to avoid buying DLP, its too big a risk to take, changing girlfriend and she gets headaches would just be a pain , having mates round and they get headaches, nah this thread has 100% convinced me to go LCD...

...am I the only one?
 
John, at least you went and saw a DLP for yourself which is what it is all about. There are people who won't suffer from the Rainbow Effect or it won't really matter to them either. Real Ale or Lager? They're both beer...but Real Ale is better!
Martin
 
Thankfully there are so many really good pj's coming out for much less than a grand so the risk is almost negligible to what it used to be when they were 4 or 5 times the price.

I am about to convert my garage (between Xmas and New Year) with a view to sourcing a pj in the new year. I am tempted by the 1080p JVC but at 3 times the price of the Pana, I am not sure how much better it will be.
 
John, at least you went and saw a DLP for yourself which is what it is all about. There are people who won't suffer from the Rainbow Effect or it won't really matter to them either. Real Ale or Lager? They're both beer...but Real Ale is better!
Martin


I wouldnt have let rainbows bother me Martin, I really wasnt sure if I was seeing them or not, I was like oh is that the effect is it, it was that subtle... but with mention of headaches after continuos viewing and users not knowing why until they swap the PJ I have to say I wont even entertain DLP.
 
I am also in the market for a projector, can someone explain the leaps and bounds, for eg how much would you of paid for a the same results of a well liked £1000-£1500 projector now say 5 years ago. Or maybe just a general explanation whats been happening in the last few years in terms of improvements etc..... It's all new to me...
Thanks in advance

P.S I am very tempted by the Epson TW700, is this a good choice, could I do better for with my £1500?
 
OK, I promised some piccies…..

Boring stuff first……this is my surround system, you may able to make out ‘STB DIGITAL’ on the display, it’s receiving the sound from the DVD player and Freeview box through it’s optical input.

The optical cables from the DVD, Freeview and my Humax PVR go into this optical selector and it works flawlessly.

One thing I’d neglected to mention is this signal booster (£15 from Maplin). The signal is going down a 20m or so length of cable from the wall to the Freeview box, the picture was almost non-existent before going through this. It still has 20m to travel after leaving this booster but the picture from the Freeview box is now flawless.

A true audiophiles solution as to what to use as a stand for my centre speaker. Needed something very solid and heavy to avoid any resonance, and being brown would help it fit into the decor. This is actually a big square candle wrapped in cling film, £4 from Dunnes Stores, works perfectly!!!

This is the PJ / DVD / Freeview on the back wall resting on custom fit shelves. You can also see my rear centre speaker (tiny eh?) and all cables tidily enclosed inside my good friend, the JML CableTidy!!!

You’ll see here that I have a big patio window right next to where the screen goes. Took a lot of thought to work out how to black it out, ended up buying a £20 Tupplur blackout blind from Ikea. It wasn’t long enough, so after cutting to correct width, I hung it low enough in the frame for it to reach ground level. I then took some of the offcut blackout material and attached it to a piece of wooden beading, then glued the beading to the ceiling above the blind. The flap of blackout material hangs behind the rest of the blind to prevent light sneaking in above. To finish off, I affixed 2 lengths of wood to the side walls and painted them to match the walls, then glued a piece of plastic conduit (the stuff you’d generally use to enclose cables in) to each and this forms a channel for the blinds to roll down into, and prevents light sneaking in around the sides. The pictures as I close the blind illustrate how effective it is at blocking the light. On a bright day, only a tiny amount of light sneaks in around the edges, such that it disappears completely after only a few inches. I could take steps to reduce this light spillage further but it isn’t worth it, as it does not reach anywhere near the screen. If you think it looks bright with the blind fully down, that’s the camera flash, in actuality its pitch black!!!

Finally, some screen shots. These are my first attempts, some are better and sharper than others, but generally they give a reasonable impression of how films look shone onto a painted wall. The first 2 shots show the scale a little better, the telly you can see is a 36” Panasonic CRT, and the King Kong shot has me in it (I’m 5’ 8”). The zoom is maxed out to give a 120” diagonal, although the shots I’ve taken are from films with a wider aspect ratio than 16:9 so it may seem a little smaller. All shots are regular DVD (Damn, I want a HD-DVD player!!).

Enjoy!!

NB Apologies, I've spent ages trying to work out how to post the piccies in the correct place within the text, but it's defeated me. If anybody would care to enlighten me on how to do it I may have a go at editing my post.
 

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Good stuff :thumbsup:
I also have a AX100 and SonyNS76H...largely down to your recommendations.I have mounted it on the ceiling and I am using a Ikea tupplar screen until I sort out whats the best screen size and location.
Eveything is temp at the moment be will try and get some pics up over the next few days if time allows.
I must say when I first put it on I thought wow its a bit big!! but not watched anything on it as I am still moving speakers and cables around but roll on saturday..........
 

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