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Connecting PC to pioneer 435FDE via DVI

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by lJoublanc, Apr 28, 2005.

  1. lJoublanc

    lJoublanc
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    I've just ordered a 435FDE, and while counting the days for its arrival I decided to download the manual from the Pioneer website. In it I noticed that the media box seems to be connected to the plasma screen via a DVI connection. My question is then:

    Can you connect a PC directly to the display via this DVI input? :confused:

    Has anyone tried this?

    I know it sounds a bit silly, but if like me you'll use the screen primarily for gaming and DVDs (played on my pc), it would simplify things to connect the two directly (also dvi-dvi cables are easier to find & cheaper than dvi-hdmi ones). Also, I'm wondering which functionality of the display is implemented in the media box (note the manual says point the remote control at the display not the media box).
     
  2. Orangelo

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    I tried that with an XDE without success. The minute you disconnect the other cable (yes there are two of them, at least on the XDE) it will prompt a "no signal" warning throughout the screen, no matter what signal you feed. Same if you keep the other cable connected to the media box.
     
  3. -Hitman-

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    Its not possible to connect your PC to the FDE, you need the XDE with a VGA port!

    You could try a Dvi to HDMI cable but you will have overscan, so some of the desktop will be off screen.

    Try and get the XDE!
     
  4. MAW

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    It's possible to use the HDMI port without overscan, but it's not native resolution. What other sources do you have, you might well be buying the wrong screen altogether. If it's 50% PC, and digital TV the rest, you would be way way way!!! better off with an MXE1. The FDE/XDE just aint very PC friendly, the VGA is on the front of the media box, it does not accept 50Hz, so you will get frame rate conversion judder on DVD playback, DVI is the better connection option, and it does not have it, the list goes on. I know it's nearly heresy, but the best bit about the XDE is the shiny black surround.
     
  5. -Hitman-

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    Matter of opinion Maw, PQ is the best yet, the XDE is the Plasma daddy!

    Why bother with an old outdated MXE thats used for supermarket/business display screens.
     
  6. MAW

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    That's where you are completely wrong, mate. The MXE1 has the cutting edge for professional setup, the XDE is a plug and play consumer TV, designed to be easy for joe public to set up. I've never left one entirely happy with the picture quality, the scart on them stinks. HDMI is excellent of course, and component not bad at all.
     
  7. lJoublanc

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    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for your replies. I'm not to worried about having bought the FDE; I'm not interested in connecting the pc via VGA, only HDMI (read DVI: DVI is rewired HDMI without sound). Shame I can' plug it in directly though.

    But I am worried about the overscan. Are you saying that from your PC you can only feed 16:9 resolutions (i.e. not 1024x768). Can't you just send a 4:3 signal, and then tell the Pioneer to strech it?

    In the end I went for the FDE because I got it at a good price (I think); it was actually a bit over my budget.

    Thanks.
     
  8. MAW

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    No you cant. BTW I think we'd say that HDMI is DVI with sound added, but it has a precise specification detailing the resolutions it must accept, and XGA is not one of them. Not to say you couldn't design an HDMI interface to do it, just nobody does. 1280/720 can be made to work with no overscan, it's just a pain in the butt. If you want a PC attached to a screen, you are buying the wrong one, you are hooked on that black surround. I promise you it is an inferior screen in every other way to the MXE1, it has no advantages at all apart from ease of connection. It's even cheaper, what's the problem? Fashion?
     
  9. Orangelo

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    I agree with MAW, if you want to use a computer, forget Pioneer's consumer line. I had an XDE with me for a couple of weeks and there is no way to get it right. You can get 1:1 in analog @56hz/60hz based rates, but that's about it.
     
  10. lJoublanc

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    So what's the MXE1? I've had a look at Pioneers UK site but it sin't listed. Can you give me a link?

    btw. Just checked and that screen is due to be delivered today.. I just spent 6 weeks waiting for a hitachi 42PD5200 that never arrived, so I'm unfortunately not going to back out..

    I'll let you know how it works out. CHeers.
     
  11. Joe Fernand

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    IJoublanc

    The HDMI Input is a Video Input - you need to set your PC to Output a Video resolution via DVI before it'll work on the HDMI Input.

    I have to agree with the previous Posts - for PC use the FDE is not ideal; at worst go with the XDE TV at least it gives you a VGA PC Input.

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS The Screen used on an FDE is the same as that used in an XDE - possibly your dealer can simply swap out the Media Boxes if your willing to pay the difference in cost!
     
  12. lJoublanc

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    Hello Again,

    Thank you all for your input; It's been very helpful in getting things into perspective. I'm a bit sad about the hassle with the digital inputs, but we'll se what happens.. I still wouldn't have traded the FDE for MXE; the reason being that I think in the long run DVI will phase out and be replaced by HDMI. As MAW mentioned above, there's no reason why HDMI can't accept PC resolutions.

    I've finally received my Pio, and I'm very happy with it so far. I still don't have a digital cord but I'm going to buy one tomorrow.

    Dr HTPC: :D Can you tell me more about the overscan? Do you have a pc plugged in via dvi<->hdmi? What resolution do you run in?

    Thanks again

    Luciano
     
  13. -Hitman-

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    Hi,

    Yes no problem!

    A basic example of what overscan is,

    A picture being displayed is bigger than the device it is being displayed on thus you lose some of the picture.

    I am using my PC as a video deinterlacer to produce HQ video from Sky+ for use with the HDMI input (Dvi - HDMI).

    The resolution i am using is 1920 x 1080 and resized the video to fit the plasma with vertually no overscan and near perfect PQ. :)

    The VGA port on the XDE is a general PC use input, so this i use for web, email and gaming!
     
  14. MAW

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    Dr HTPC, is this use of the PC cos sky is inadequate for you on scart or do you just love fiddling? HTPC use is of course an excellent outlet for compulsive tweakers! I see you use both digital and analogue inputs for the PC. I assume this is cos you get FRC conversion judder on the VGA port? Is the 1080 resolution progressive then? That's not listed as an accepted format, so useful to know it will do it if so. You have adjusted the exact res in powerstrip to minimise overscan then? I have not previously heard of anyone using 1080 with a PC, most try the 720 approach, the numbers are on the forum somewhere. You are obviously in a position to compare native res on VGA to non native on HDMI, I have not tried this on the one display, only 1 or the other in different installs. Anything worth saying on this?

    Luciano, DVI and HDMI ports happily co-exist, one will not 'replace' the other, DVI is a PC connection, HDMI a consumer video and audio connection. No conflict, no problem.
     
  15. -Hitman-

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    Hi,

    I haven't experienced FRC judder at all with VGA route or any other, i prefer the HDMI port for video due to its digital qualities and superior PQ and the VGA port for web, email and gaming, which is excellent for general PC use, for comparison between these two inputs with regard to video the HDMI wins hands down.

    I have always had a HTPC of some sort and well, sky has never been as good as it should be on a normal connections due to the mixture of bandwidths used for their channels.

    I don't use scart due the fact i don't need to and that it is an inferior analogue connection anyway as you know.

    Scart will eventally disappear when the rest of us are up to scratch with digital connectivity.

    I don't use powerstrip, Dscaler is used for the resize method.

    I have the Dvi output set for 1080i which creates the overscanned desktop as usual then Dscaler is run on that desktop @ fullscreen, video resized to fit correctly, good liitle workaround that i have configured, not exactly native but very close.

    You see the problem is that Ppl on the forum are trying to get the desktop portion underscanned and use this for general PC use but it is not necessary nor practical via this dedicated video/audio input and difficult to do as they have only reached 720p!, as for video use, you just need a platform to work with.
     
  16. MAW

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    What kind of % overscan is there on 1080i then? Presumably it must be visible with a digital video source. It certainly is at 720p, movies I know well it shows very obviously. That's a 'different' PC setup you've got, but whatever floats your boat, as they say.
     
  17. -Hitman-

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    Overscan on the actual video content displayed via the de-interlacer (HDMI) is 0% vertcally and 2% horizontal.

    You also asked about 1080p in you last post, so i double checked my settings which implies that i am indeed using or outputting 1080p @ 60hz but the Xde panel shows the info as 1080i.

    I will need to look into this further so i will get back to you.
     
  18. MAW

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    THe screen does not say it takes 1080p, not a usual format so far in any case, though HD-DVD is now looking like using it.... so 1080i is the one. it just made me ask as you referred to your PC as being used as a deinterlacer. That's why I find the setup 'different', you are deinterlacing, then re-interlacing the signal, so many processes! Lip sync? or do you have that looked after?
     
  19. -Hitman-

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    Hi,

    If it is re-interlaced then the XDE is doing it as my PC de-interlaces the original video format and does not re-interlace the video, but as you say i should have lipsync delay problems along with video quality anomalies with that amount of processing but i don't have any, only perfect sync and excellent PQ.

    As i have said earlier i am looking into this further and will be discussing this with a Pioneer tech friend.
     
  20. MAW

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    The screen says what signal it recieves, if it says 1080i that's what you are sending. As I say, I don't think it can take 1080p anyway, though willing to stand corrected on that. It's not an HDMI defined signal.
     
  21. -Hitman-

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    Hi,

    Just checked the technical and i am producing a progressive Video image via dscaler de-interlacer,

    Looks like the panel accepts this 1080p but the info on the Xde is 1080i, which i have experienced a similar anomolie with the xbox at a lower progressive res that shows up as interlaced.

    Conclusion at the mo is the Xde software is incorrect.
     
  22. alscds

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    sorry if im butting in here and admittedly i havent read the entire post but have you considered using the dvi out on the pc with a component adapter? thus going dvi to component . it does work ive had a customer come in and do it on a gd1. the same principle applies. thanks for listening
     
  23. MAW

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    That's been discussed, yes. The good Dr and I are currently attempting to thash out what is actually happenning in his setup, as he rates it highly. It all adds to the general knowlege pool. I'd still maintain that native is best, but it's been known to be a flexible rule, 1280/720 works brilliantly on PW panasonics, for instance. No overscan probs there either.
     
  24. Orangelo

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    Dr HTPC,

    I'm sorry but it's impossible not to get FRC judder with PAL material through the XDE's VGA port. If you don't notice the judder, use a tearing test such as the one built in reclock and you will notice, or use Arka's judder test (available in AVSforum / HPTC). Alternatively, take Ch. 1 of The Nightmare Before Christmas, or some selected passages in Seabiscuit or other films that show smooth and long camera pans.

    Also, very few video cards can output an interlaced signal. This is a widely documented topic that became very popular when Sony released its Qualia SXRD projector, a 1080p machine that, bizarrely, would only sync segmented 1080/24pfs signals and not true 1080p. Manufacturers of scalers were very upset by that peculiarity and many purchasers turned to HTPCs just to find out that it was nearly impossible to generate an interlaced signal from a computer video card. What many cards do output, however, is a 540p signal that the display will take as 1080i, but you will lose a lot of quality that way.

    I hope that this will not upset you, but your setup is a bit outdated in HTPC terms and reading your posts it's obvious that you are not on the technical side of this hobby. I am sure that you honestly believe that you have re-invented the wheel and your intentions are as good as anyone else's, but please consider that you are conveying the message that the XDE is HTPC friendly, while it is not, and the original poster many be misled by some of your statements and make an acquisition that it will later regret.

    And of course I may be totally wrong ;) and you have indeed re-invented the wheel :)
     
  25. -Hitman-

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    Totally wrong yes! Upset No No :lesson:

    errm do you own an Xde then? think not!

    I can remember you asking about what plasma to get, obviously not in the know and totally inexperienced from your posts!

    My HTPC setup is current, built with the best equipment in mind with a lot of research and not outdated (finished building this one about 3 months ago), for a start you don't know what it consists of and i have been into HTPC's for 15 years as PC's are part of my job!

    I still will say that no FRC judder is evident via the vga input as i have not seen this effect yet and have played many DVD's this way!

    A lot of video cards can now output interlaced signals, mine for instance provides 30hz interlaced and 60 - 120hz progressive for the 1080 resolution.

    The xde can be made to be PC friendly as that is exactly what i have done and more using a HTPC.

    but enough of explaining myself to you who ever you are :boring:

    back to the subject,



    alscds,

    I have the dongle you mentioned but it provides a component feed that is analogue (saying its not bad but compared to digital is does'nt come close), HDMI digital is the way to go!
     
  26. Orangelo

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    But at least I'm not alone...

    :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
     
  27. -Hitman-

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    I think you are!

    The statement could be very true and we may see an update as we see this all the time and i will investigate further!

    It is well known that manufacturers use software that becomes outdated due to the fact that newer equipment is not available when the product is released, one classic example is, software updates for a Pc giving more compatibility, more features, more information, same for products like DVD players, Sky boxes, digtal cameras the list is endless.

    I bet when i speak to a friend at Pioneer that he will tell me that nothing was available to test 1080P at the time of the xde release, which is true as products are only just appearing that support this 1080p both hardware and software wise.

    what do you think of that!

    Hope you response is longer and more intellectual than your last small post
     
  28. -Hitman-

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    Hi,

    just ran some additional tests using the new 1080P video clips from Ms, played directly from WMP10 to the HDMI feed and i think were cooking on gas here.

    Need to speak to pioneer on this and will get back asap!
     
  29. MAW

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    Hi Doctor, Orangelo is not alone. I have little clue about what your PC is doing, it seems neither have you, or at least are unable to explain it. I think your graphics card is sending 1080i, you are right there, a number are capable. Your screen is overscanning with this, and you are using dscaler to make the video window fit the screen I take it? That's why you can't say what's going on, and why your PC is doing multiple processing of the signal. It's not good news, and you are the one on their own, everyone else uses 720p, and powerstrip to fit the desktop to the screen with no overscan. This is poor, but restricts scaling to 2 places and deinterlacing to 1, the best achievable with the HDMI input. The best option, no question, is to do all scaling and deinterlacing once, in the PC, and feed native res at a non frame rate converting frequency to a digital input. All else is 2nd rate as far as PC's are concerned. If I were you I would have a serious re-think of your PC setup, it is hampering your screen's performance. There is more image quality to come, though never ultimate with the XDE.
     
  30. Orangelo

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    Dr HTPC, I'm afraid that you are not aware of things work with displays. A display is only capable of presenting a certain amount of information. With fixed pixel displays such as plasmas, the amount of information that can be presented equals the pixel count. There is no physical way for an XDE to present anything more than 1024x768 pixels. What the XDE can do, however, is convert other signals to that resolution, upscaling or downscaling them, as needed. Up to here I guess you will follow me, now comes the second part...

    Video signals are not more than electricity. In fact, that is the underlying reason why NTSC is 60hz and PAL is 50Hz, due to the different standards used for the supply of electricity in the US and in Europe. Electricity can seriously damage equipment, if applied incorrectly. In order to avoid damage, the electronics in every display provide for a range of signals that will be accepted or "synced". That means that if a signal is out of that range, the display will not even try to present it, as it could result in damage for the equipment, and you will be stuck with an "out of range" message onscreen. Signals are either synced, or they are not, and believe me, that is a fact.

    For that reason, the variety of signals that a display will handle is not something that changes over time as more advanced equipment becomes available and new signal standards are adopted. The electronics in the display have a range of accepted frequencies and resolutions and you are stuck there no matter what. That is why it really does not matter if 1080p equipment was available at the time of release of the XDE. Unless you update the firmware of the display, there is no way that your setup will "magically" accomodate to new standards, especially if the new standards already exceed the physical capabilities of the display.

    In any event, saying that 1080p has only been available recently is absolutely untrue. Many owners of 9" CRT PJs (which until the release of the Qualia, the 2K and some newer LCD panels, were the only 1080p physically-capable devices) have used scalers that would output 1080p for many years. I myself have had access to 1080p material and equipment for quite some time.

    Now, as for your 1080i "solution"... MAW is convinced that your videocard is outputting an interlaced signal. I would not be so sure, I think it's 540p, which is not exactly the same thing. Let me explain myself. We take a single frame in a film and scan it and convert it to 1920x1080. If we want to send that over in interlaced fashion, we would need to segment the frame in two 1920x540 fields. You don't segment them really, what you do is apply tags that will distinguish the odd and the even lines in the frame. The important part is that the frame is processed as one, and even if the frame is segmented in two fields for transmission, the two fields will be re-united by the display to show the full 1920x1080 frame, which will moreover be displayed twice (or for twice the time, as you like it).

    Now, if you tell Powerstrip to follow that process and generate a 1080i signal, what it will most likely do is downscale 1920x1080 to 1920x540 (540p). 540 lines of information will be lost for good. However, at the other end of the chain, the display will believe that it is being fed untagged 1080i, because a 1080i signal is precisely that, a sucession of 540p fields. Without the tags that tell the odd lines from the even, the display may merge two downscaled frames instead of segmented fields, or use a line doubler algorythm... whatever, when tags are not available, the DCDis of the world come into play, some do a better job than others. I'm not saying that a computer video card cannot output a true interlaced signal. I'm just saying that very few do because very few have the software that support that feature. The fact that the display tells it's being fed 1080i means very little, though.

    You will have seen many references to 1080i signals in HTPC US Websites (Karnis has a full thread in the AVSforum). The US folks normally don't make the distinction between true 1080i and downscaled 540p because, until recently, they fed such signals to HDTV CRT TVs that were not capable of displaying more than 540 lines (i.e., not 720p capable, in fact I don't think that there has ever been a commercially released CRT TV which is 720p capable, Sony came close but now the attention has shifted to plasmas). If the physical limitations in your display are such that you will never see more than 540 lines of vertical resolution, 1080i and 540p are quite the same thing to you, since you down't really lose a lot with the downscaling.

    Anyway, enough is enough, and I'll leave it here, because I have work to do. I admit I have been a little naughty with Dr HTPC and sorry if I was offensive. I am sure that the guy has good intentions, but I would not recommed any HTPC users to buy a display that will not take 1:1 digital @48/50hz. That's the reason why I initially discarded the XDE. Now that I learn that most Plasma TVs behave that way, I may change my mind completely, forget the HTPC thing (it's a TV for my mom that I am buying, anyway) and just buy the best Plasma TV available, henc the XDE may be back on my list. I don't know... (you may quote that last bit, Doc :D )
     

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