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Confusion over Panasonic E50 and Phillips PHDVDR70

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by knaggsy, Nov 12, 2003.

  1. knaggsy

    knaggsy
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    Hi I am new here so hello to everyone first lol

    I am looking to get a dvd recorder as I am wanting to replace my video as every now and again I have a few problems and I am looking for better quality recordings as well as every day use. It certainly would be nice to have something that made quiet recordings at night as well.

    I have a Sanyo 28" widescreen tv with three scart sockets 2 at the back at the third at the front through the red white and yellow connectors. I also have sky (not sky +) a video and a dvd player as well as a playstation 2. At the moment I connect the sky and video to the back of the tv and alternate the dvd and playstation 2 at the front when needed.

    I will mainly be using the recorder to record off sky and occassionally terrestial. I have a couple of questions.

    It seems most people in the cheaper price bracket are going for E50. I had heard that of the two formats -r and +r one will be fazed out as in betamax and vhs. Is this true is so which one looks the more likely with staying power.

    I will mostly be taping 1 hour programs and films so with films is the sp 2 hour option or longer good enough to keep films without any degradation? I will be using it a lot to tape a variety of stuff during the week but not to keep with the -r on the e50 can you wipe off what you have recorder and use the dvd again or is that only rw's and if so are they made for both -r and +r.

    My father has a cheap tescos dvd player called technika I am not sure if the panasonic would be compatible with this. Also my friend has a ps2 which format do they mainly play or not play. I am conscious of this as if I tape stuff for people or lend people films tv I have taped there is no point if it isn't compatible with other people. Also with sky which machine the e50 or the PHDVDR70 for recording.

    I see a few posts on people recording off rgb or composite. I have the my sky box set to pal as that is the one I am most happiest with would that work okay with either machine?

    Sorry to bombard everyone with all these questions and its only my first post lol Still it can be confusing for first timers.

    Any help anyone can give me would be really appreciated.
     
  2. Rasczak

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    No - both formats will be around for a long time. In the set-top market DVD- is pushed by the Japanese giants (JVC, Toshiba, Panasonic, Samsung) whilst DVD+ is pushed by Philips and a large number of smaller firms (Alba, Bush, Daewoo, Mico) who use a Philips reference design. Sony is sitting on the fence support DVD-RW and DVD+RW (although is not support DVD+R).

    Whatever all DVD formats will survive until well after the machine you buy now has pasted it's sellby date.

    Yes the E50 offers a good compromise between features and price. It records to DVD-RAM which has a re-use life 100 times greater than DVD+RW but does not play on most DVD players. It also writes onto DVD-R disks which are write-once but universally compatible. For your purposes the 2hr mode (on any DVDR) is generally sufficient to provide a good compromise between quality and time.

    The Philips records onto DVD+RW but has none of the features of the Panny (i.e. Timeslip, editting, flexible record) but recordings will probably play in your other DVD players. The Philips models don't stand very high around here (expect with Primitive!).

    The other options are to look at the new Toshiba, JVC or Sony models which all record to DVD-RW (as well as DVD-R) which will play in most DVD players.

    Have a read of the + or - sticky at the top of this forum and make a decision. At least after reading it you'll have an insight into the differences (as well as see the changing reactions of some supporters for each format!).
     
  3. knaggsy

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    Thanks for your reply it has been really helpful. The main reason I am looking at the Panasonic is that it is within my price range so unless I find ex rental or display models of the new ones I am pretty limited to what I can go for.

    I am erring towards a panasonic e50 as I can always transfer recordings on to video for other people just be nice to just soley use dvds amongst friends when taping stuff. The extras on the E50 look more than worth it though.
     
  4. phelings

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    Unless you want to lend recordings to friends,then reuse the disc(which DVD+RW can do) go for the Panasonic.These seem very popular and reliable.Although the new Philips models seem to be lasting,the earlier ones were as useful as a chocolate teapot.
     
  5. malcom

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    I agree with phelings "For a change":) The Panny machines are just fab and you won't look back once you have used one.......The only thing you are likely to wonder about is why we have had to suffer the insufferable quality of VHS for so long :)
     
  6. knaggsy

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    Thanks for all your help guys I really appreciate it.

    I am definately thinking of the panasonic as it seems the best for value and quality the cheapest I have found is about 230. Has anyone found it any cheaper or is this the best price?

    Also does anyone know how loud the machines are when recording?

    :) :) :)
     
  7. primitive

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    As the only supporter of DVD+ on this forum I just thought I would add my bit (and not to let Rasczak down!)

    For what you seem to be wanting (recording from Sky and sharing) the Philips DVDR70 would be an excellent machine. Its price is similar to the E50 and you can use DVD+RW discs which will play in most other DVD players. You can do basic editing on +RW's, share them with your mates and then re-record them and they are reuseable upto 1000 times (more than enough for most people!).

    If sharing your recordings is what you want to do then I would not recomend you go down the Panasonic E50 route.

    (now I'm ready for the slagging!)
     
  8. Rasczak

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    There are actually half a dozen DVD+ supporters on the boards. There are also quite a few now who have switched to DVD-....

    Indeed - if you care more about the quality in which your nextdoor neighbour (etc) watches your recordings as opposed to YOUR personnel satisfaction then the Panasonic is not for you. ;)

    As there are quite a few multi-format recorders out there now (JVC, Sony, Toshiba) if sharing recordings on re-writtable disks is important you can get a DVD-RW machine to do it without having to sacrificing features (Timeslip, Editting, Non-linear Playlists etc) on your own recordings.

    I'd agree that the Philips DVDR70 is the best choice if the primary reason for getting the recorder was to play disks in other players and there was no need for any the features that exist on the competition. But even then DVD-R write-once disks can be got for 50p each which are the most compatible DVD format by quite some margin.
     
  9. primitive

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    Not much of a margin really in practice and reducing all the time. And I wouldn't recommend 50p discs to anyone who is looking for quality unless you are willing to except a few failures.

    Also worth remembering that the nice features of DVD-RW can't be used when recording in DVD video compatible mode which means if you want editing, timeslip etc on DVD-RW then you can't lend the disks to your mates 'cos they won't play!

    Keep it simple (!) with DVD+RW
     
  10. ivanwilson

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    Agreed - IIRC was it Rasczak who replied in another post about people in this forum were only looking for quality and not cheap goods. I wouldn't be saving precious recordings on 50p discs.

    Seeing as timeslip etc is always brought up I just thought I'd mention a few plus + points!-

    DVD+R/+RW recordings are always DVD-Video compatible
    DVD+RW recorders can divide a recording into multiple titles afterwards
    DVD+RW recorders can add chapter markers at any given point afterwards
    DVD+RW recorders can hide-out chapters to "edit" your recordings afterwards
    DVD+RW recordings can always be added anywhere on a disc
    DVD+RW recordings do not need to be finalised
    DVD+R/+RW discs always contain a picture menu that is updated automatically after each recording
    DVD+R/+RW discs are interchangable between recorders
    DVD+RW recordings can be edited on a PC
    DVD+R/+RW recordings always use variable bit rate
    DVD+R/+RW recorders always offer long recording times.

    Anyway, I'm off to watch the telly and have a few drinks - night all:hiya:
     
  11. primitive

    primitive
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    Get ready for the onslaught!!!!
     
  12. Rasczak

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    Well - I wouldn't want to disappoint! :D

    Don't mind if I just wheel in a few corrections then ;)

    Which means no editting, no timeslip, no non-linear playlists. Whereas with DVD-RW you get the choice of DVD-Video or Video Recording. This means the option of having the best possible features simply isn't available on recorder using DVD+ media.

    ...and:
    As you can on DVD-RW or DVD-RAM.

    You mean you can do a shoddy edit on it. DVD+ users on this forum have been so impressed by this they've switched to DVD- units.

    Meaning that accidentally taping over you favourite recording is easy. The Panasonic models on the other hand will always find the free space on the disk and just start recording there...

    And 1 minute spent finalising a disk is just such an inconvienance.

    As do all new DVD- machines.

    Useful I suppose if you have 2 or more DVD recorders at your house!

    :rotfl: Now have a look at my thread "PC GUIDE: DVD-RAM (inc DVD-RW VR Mode) To DVD-R" and see how much MORE you can do with minus equipment (even if you ultimately burn the project to DVD+R on the PC). Anyone who has a PC burner yet still opts for a + set-top has seen themselves off dramatically.

    Like every other DVD recorder since the Early 02 Pioneer model the DVDR7000!

    Just like minus machines or are you arguing that the 8 hour mode on the Philips models is watchable!?!. If you require long recording times then get a HDD/DVDR combo - that offers 100+ hours!

    Of course you missed a few 'features' of the + format in your list Ivan:
    - No Timebase corrector (it "virtual" on the + format!)
    - No current HDD/DVDR option for + (and apart from a Sony none on the UK horizon)
    - Apart from Philips (which is debateable) no recorders from high end brands available - especially as Thompson and Yahama have scaled back their UK plans
    - Lower compatibility of DVD+RW and DVD+R compared to DVD-RW and DVD-R
    - No precise frame editting (or anything remotely close)
    - No Timeslip (nor ever will be)
    - Currently no Flexible Record
    - No non-linear playlists

    Ultimately I think most + users think their equipment is top of the range - until they have used minus equipment in the same role. That's certainly how I feel/felt after swapping my top-of-the-range Philips DVDR1000 for my old Panasonic E20.
     
  13. phelings

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    To sum up-DVD+ is a bottom of the range system that offers rewritable disc compatibility for sharing/lending discs as well as simplicity in set up and recording.
    DVD- offers a more sophisticated system that allows the more discerning user to move easily to high tech options like Hard Disc Drive and precise editing.There is of course,many more quality brands making DVD- recorders.(Sony don't count for DVD+)
     
  14. phelings

    phelings
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    I have had a rethink on the Sony.If they had included +R recording,it would have been an excellent marketing idea,even though with -R,the +R facility is not needed.But in some circumstances the machine may be useful.
    DVD-R for your compatibility on archive recordings.If you want to do a rewritable disc with fancy editing then -RW is there,but if you want to record,lend and reuse then the +RW capability proves a useful extra.
    Now if it was available for about £300 it would be a worthwhile buy
     
  15. primitive

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    Hee Hee! I do feel a bit sorry for Ivan! However it's nothing like as clear cut as Rasczak makes out.

    Sure you can use two modes on a DVD-RW but if you use the editing/timeslip functions then you can't play the disc in any standard DVD Player. DVD+ only has one mode so no confusion there.

    DVD-RW can't do to the frame editing because it is technically impossible. The - format does not enable perfect linking.

    If you want to re-record on a -RW disk and there isnt enough space you have to erase the disk. On +RW you just record over the old stuff.

    Show me a -R machine which can finalise in a minute, more like 4! And panasonic state upto 15 mins.

    Compatibility is virtually identical in any practical sense and getting better all the time. And compared to RAM any DVD-or+ is better.

    Timeslip is only of any practical use on a HDD machine and is hardly a major selling point in -RW, still it can do it so I'll give you that one!

    Interesting review in one of the home cinema magazines recently (can't remember which one). Said that the Philips recorded picture quality at the lower resolutions was far superior to the pannys due to their better picture processing and was still better than VHS, so I would say it was useable.

    Flexible record, another nice to have feature but not essential. You always fail to mention that the Philips machines record in D1 quality at the 2.5 hour mode (which is suitable for most things) when the Panasonice switch to D2 at 2.20 odd. Far more significant in my mind.

    Basically - may have some extra non essential features but + machines are inherently simpler and because they always record in DVD video compatible mode, they have features which cannot be used on a DVD- machine.

    Keep it simple, keep it +.

    Night night.
     
  16. Rasczak

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    Have to disagree there - any DVDR without it (or equivalent) is crippled with regards to high quality archiving. The capacity of DVDRs is so small that every last scrap of space needs to be maximised to prevent us looking back on our recordings in 5/10 years and saying - "isn't that a crap picture!"

    But then of course the Panny models use a higher average bitrate (10.3MBits/S compared to 9.8 max including control information), have flexible record to enable you to fit the recording precisely to disk and have editting features so you can remove the excess so it doesn't go over 2hrs 20mins. As per the many examples I have given in the + or - sticky. It should also be noted as well that the new JVC models actually uses an intermediate resolution which lasts well over the 3hr mark...

    Actually if you read ALL the reviews you'd note that they say all lower resolution recordings are 'watchable' but who in their right mind buys a DVDR to watch at low res?

    Which is why it's proven to be a very popular feature...

    The non-essential features are the ones that most high end users seem to want. Yet even if you don't want them you can acheive more or less the same results using a DVD-RW machine in Video mode; only with a + machine you will never have the option to Timeslip, edit etc etc. And you limited to the fact that DVD+R is only 89% compatible with existing DVD players as opposed to 96%+ for DVD-R. Why limit yourself?

    I thought I showed great restraint there. I was going to go for a comprehensive answer but Charles II was on ;) Basically it is as clear cut as I make out - you can generally tell that by the fact there are now at least half a dozen users on the board who have switched from plus to minus with no regrets. DVD+RW has a good future (in the UK) but that future is at the bottom end of the market in featureless models from Alba, Bush, Daewoo, Mico etc. The DVD- formats will continue to offer the only real option in the middle/upper end of the markets.
     
  17. HMHB

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    I don't know much about all the different formats, but I do know that someone lent me a recording on a DVD+R disk and it will not play on my LG player (it does play on the PC but the lip sync is about a second out on that). So much for lending recordings to your neighbours !
     
  18. ivanwilson

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    Thanks for showing the restraint but you must be confusing me with someone who cares :laugh:

    I suspect you protest too much knowing that you have the Betamax of DVDR.

    I'm quite happy sitting back and enjoying the recorder rather than spending my life on the forum defending it :D
     
  19. Rasczak

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    :rotfl: Do you mean in the sense I have a superior product? Or were your refering to my Philips DVDR1000? :D

    It does amuse that 99% of the so-called "high end/home cinema" users who opt for DVD+RW do so out of a almost paranoid concern of ending up with a "Betamax" format! It seems they are prepared to sacrifice all or any features as long as in 10 years time they can still readily use their 90p DVD+RW disk!

    It's a well established that the Betamax comparison is totally inapplicable to the DVD format war - and saying so just stops people investing in ANY DVD recorder - which is a bad thing. All DVD formats are going to survive in the mainstream for at least the next five years, all machines write to highly-compatible write-once media that will play in old, current and future DVD players. And all machines play DVD-Videos - so how can any one of them become a "Betamax" (a format that BTW didn't stop consumer production until 2002!)?

    I actually spend less than 30mins total on the AV Forums per day so I would hardly say I "spend my life on the forum".

    Most of the knowledge I type on here is second nature to me - it's a by-product of my job - so hardly takes forever to type up. And IMHO one of the great benefits of the internet is to share knowledge on forums such as this and I make no apology for providing advice/assistance. I receive help on other forums so return the favour where I can - which given my job is on this forum.

    Neither would I say I spend my life defending the format either - it doesn't need defending - it stands on it's own merits. And with my HS2/PC I can make editted recordings that will play on any DVD player and have the ability to write to any type of DVD media. So even if the market went entirely down to one format (which will never happen) then I would still be compatible with it. Which hardly means I'm motivated to defend my setup from the "fear" of it becoming obsolete! I can't help but feel your judging me by your own concerns!
     
  20. 227 BHA

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    Having read all the arguments on this board I decided that all I needed was a simple machine that I could use as an alternative to my VCR.
    I bought a Philips DVDR70 (for £240) on Saturday and can say I'm very impressed. It does everything I will ever need.
    The cost of +RW is not too prohibitive as I bought 10 Philips ones for £30 (half price at PCWorld) and that should be all I need - I'll mainly be re-recording over stuff as I only keep original DVD's as a rule.
    Being able to play on other machines is important as we've a TV/DVD combi in the kitchen.
    And I hacked this machine to region-free within minutes of setting up - again this is important as most of my DVD collection is other than region 2. I understand the Pannies aren't the easiest machines to hack but thats an issue that hasn't seemed to be mentioned on here much (or maybe I'm wrong?)

    Anyway very pleased with my DVDR70 so far
     
  21. Rasczak

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    It's horses for courses - broadly speaking the Pannies are hackable with a chip which allows playback of all DVDs. The Philips are easily hackable but won't play RCE disks.
     
  22. 227 BHA

    227 BHA
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    Scuse my ignorance but what exactly is RCE?
     
  23. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Region Coding Enhancement - checks that your player isn't multi-region before it plays (or doesn't as the case may be). Only a few studios use this so don't worry about it too much ;)
     
  24. 227 BHA

    227 BHA
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    Cheers, so if I see DVD on CDWow, DVDSoon etc that states RCE I should avoid it but is this going to be a problem in the future if all studios adopt this policy?
     
  25. Rasczak

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    For your info 227 BHA there is a brief dit here on RCE:
    http://www.dvdcompare.org.uk/rce.php

    There are tons of other other descriptions of it online if the above isn't comprehensive enough. As I say it's not something you need to get too concerned about.
     
  26. Rasczak

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    If there is one thing the DVD format "war" has shown it's that all the major companies would rather devise their own formats than pay royalties to their competitors so I would say the odds of widescale takeup of RCE are slim - besides if it was going to happen it would have done so by now.

    Don't worry about it anyway - if push comes to shove you can always get yourself a cheapy DVD player to play RCE disks. Or get your DVDR properly modified.
     
  27. 227 BHA

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    Cheers for the info Rasczak - doesn't seem to be much to worry about there. Like I said my multi-region DVDR70 seems to be the perfect machine for me now its set up and at only £240 hasn't exactly broken the bank!


    :clap: :clap:
     
  28. phelings

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    JohnG-when I was a DVD+ user I was able to test DVD+R in many machines.LG was one of a few that did not like them.Out of 5 LG players,only 1 played them.+R was also a problem on Wharfedale,Goodmans,Sharp,early Toshiba,Sanyo,early Panasonic was picky with some brands of blank.
    I have not had any failures with DVD-R as yet
     
  29. ivanwilson

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    Hi Raszack

    I have to bow to your inifinite knowledge. You are the all knowing :) As I've said before the Panasonics etc are excellent machines and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the format. I chose plus ( as if you didn't guess) for various reasons and I'm pleased that I did. Time slip sounds a nice feature but I've got Sky + which makes it a bit redundant. I also would have gone for the Guideplus Philips but againg the Skyguide does fine.

    There is rooms for both formats but would you hazard a guess as to what format domestic recorders will be walking out the shops this Christmas?
     
  30. Rasczak

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    I would suggest both formats will be. As has happened elsewhere in the world people will look at what's available and purchase accordingly. The people who normally by Alba, Bush, Mico products will go for plus and those who normally opt for brands such as Panasonic, Toshiba and JVC will opt for minus.

    The real challenge for DVDR will come next year when Sharp, LG and Samsung enter the fray. It is also widely predicted/expected that HDD recorders will become the dominant choice for consumers.
     

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