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confused, confused, confused

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by willwood, Apr 10, 2005.

  1. willwood

    willwood
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    After finally getting Comet to give me my money back on an Axium 50" after a 4 month battle (Sagem agreed to take it back in January! Would love to tell the story but its very long) I'm in the market for a replacment.

    I've been reading all the threads and I'm stuffed if I know what to replace it with. My budget is 2k or there abouts. The contenders are the Sagem HD45, Samsung 50", or the Toshiba 50". From reading this forum I know one thing, a lot of it is down to personal taste.

    In all honesty, I thought the Axium was a great set, non of the picture problems that people have been reporting with the likes of the Toshiba, my only problem with it was the HDCP issue. I obviously need to take a good look at the Tosh set but I'm not sure if Costco would be very obliging if I camp out on their floor for a few hours hooking up multiple sources to test it. The HD45 looked good but not sure I could bare to lose that all important 5" :) The Samsung picture looks over processed to me and not very sharp, the E4 feed in Costco looked pretty soft and washed out.

    So like I say, I'm pretty confused, can anyone help?
     
  2. malso

    malso
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    i'm confused too, even after visting this forum for weeks on end....i would say its down to the sammy 50, the RD 50 and the outsider due to this motion blur problem being the TOSH 46.

    to me, the Sammy picture looks sharp, i noticed no softness in Currys..

    i would say the next best is maybe a CRT 36'' or a LCD 42...but i do love the idea of an ultra cool huge screen, it simply looks so ace! :D :D :D :D

    i'm waiting for the price to drop and a long way too.
     
  3. St_ve

    St_ve
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    will IMO some of the sets u mention have a worse picture than the Sagem 50 .
    You should demo the samsung sets & the Optoma RD50 if you don't have region one DVD's or don't mind using a HTPC with it.
     
  4. Razor

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    I agree with malso and steve, RD50 or samsung would be my choice. Samsung if you have alarge region 1 collection and dont have a HTPC. :)

    Good Luck
     
  5. malso

    malso
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    i've nothing, i'll be starting from scratch so i'm ok :D
     
  6. willwood

    willwood
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    Well I've had a bit of a look today and I am not happy with the Sammy picture, very soft compared to all the others. Costco had both the Tosh 50 and the Sammy next to each other and I can honestly say I was happier with the picture on the Tosh, nice and sharp. I'm kind of gutted because I love the look of the Sammy. Both sets were displaying Top Of The Pops from an analouge source which wasn't great, but there were lots of panning and close ups of faces and I didn't see any problems.

    Anyway, I have arranged to go in to Curry's in the week and they are going to hook it up to Sky for me and I will connect my PowerBook up via DVI, so I can give it a good test and play around with all the settings, I intend to do the same with Tosh.

    With regards to the RD50, that could be a contender as I don't have any region 1 DVD's, however I was thinking of hooking the XBox up in HD mode which requiers switching it to NTSC, will the judder issue also effect the XBox?
     
  7. Razor

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    If you havent any region dvds then consider the RD50. The hard part will be viewing a RD50 and samsung side by side. RD50's arent marketed that well.

    There may be an AV show on soon, ones due. That would be the best place to make your mind up.
     
  8. willwood

    willwood
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    To be honest I'm pretty much discounting the Sammy.

    Where is the best place to get the RD50?
     
  9. Razor

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    Where do you live? You really do need to demo before you buy. Just incase :D

    All RD sets are delivered by a AV delivery firm which are employed by Optoma. They will deliver and set the TV up for you. All the delear does is take his cut and phone Optoma with an order. I used a comercial AV display company in Kingston for my RD65 and I got a bit of discount. :) Very knowledgable and I do mean very. They design systems that cost hundreds of thousands of pounds for displays, corporate functions etc.

    :clap:
     
  10. willwood

    willwood
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    Well is it comparable to the Axium, I would have thought it would be, its pretty much the same set.

    I'm in Birmingham, anywhere nearby I can see it?

    I run my own IT company, you reckon I could buy it at cost from Optima? What are their contact details?
     
  11. Razor

    Razor
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    Try there website for the telephone number and aske for sales.

    The picture on the RD50 is slightly better than sagem HD50. Basically due to the HD2+ chip and a diiferent colour wheel.

    Whites arent so burnt out and better blacks. Mirrors on the HD2+ are ment to rotate further, I think its something like 10-12 degrees.

    If your only gripe with the HD50 was HDCP you will be pleased with the RD50.


    http://www.optoma.co.uk/
     
  12. St_ve

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    The Xbox is fine at 50HRz on the RD50 but it does not work at 60hrz the judder is terrible
    It even plays region one DVDs at 50hrz without judder but because it's a scart lead the picture is about the same as a budget DVD player .
    You really need the DVI connection if you want to see DVD's at their best.
    I don't know how the powerbook compares with Windows XP & windvd6 for quality ?
    does it handle hidef allright?
    I had a demo with the Sagem 50 before buying my set & i was impressed with the picture quality but the picture quality of my RD50 is far better . I suspect though that the Sagem 50 looks a lot better when you got it home & set up right.
    Unless you've owned both sets it's not possible to say how much better the RD50 is.

    I would never dismiss a set based on seeing an analougue source from Currys or Comets , the only time i've seen the Samsung 50 L7 was in Currys & it had the worst picture in the store. If you can record some TV material like Eastenders (known for its poor quality) to a DVD you'd be able to compare a TV source without relying on their crappy ariels.
    You can try Audiovision

    The Store

    46 Market Square, St.Neots, Cambridgeshire, PE19 2AF.

    Tel : 01480 471202. Open Monday to Saturday 9.30am till 5.30pm

    Please always call us before traveliing to confirm stocks are available.

    http://www.audiovisiononline.co.uk/erol.html
     
  13. willwood

    willwood
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    Thanks for the XBox info, excuse my ignorange is it PAL or NTSC that runs at 60Hz? If it is PAL, do you have to switch the XBox to NTSC? Can you still play all of your PAL games?

    I did see the Incredibles playing from a DVD player but again it was only via SCART, they didn't have a DVI-HDMI adapter :-( I know you can't make a proper judgement from a crappy analouge source but the Sammy's image was very soft compared to all the others, I think I was just spoilt by the Sagem. I have very poor vision in my left eye and as a result, if I'm using my right eye, my brain kind of switches off the left one, I think this is why I really don't see many rainbows and other image imperfections.

    Anyway, I'm going top take Curry's up on their offer of putting the Sammy through its paces so I can properly discount it. Just need a DVI-HDMI adapter.

    The Mac Mini would make a great companion to the RD50 :)
     
  14. willwood

    willwood
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    Just been reading up about using a Mac Mini with HDTV and apparently it should work great. Shame its only got an 80GB HD, althought I have been looking at the new Buffalo TerraStation :)
     
  15. Razor

    Razor
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    Willwood

    NTSC is a system used in the US and runs on 60hz. PAL the british system uses 50Hz. Its the 60Hz that the RD50 cant handle, so set your xbox to PAL not PAL60.

    Incredibles is a slightly soft film and its CGI which are never a good indication of how a set performs. Try a movie such as i-robot, Troy etc. You really need skin tones to see what a set can do.

    As for the mini mac, I would be surprised that it could handle HD as the processor is very underpowered coupled with an old bottom of the range graphics card which isnt worth £30. The minium spec for a HD HTPC is 3.0 gig. You can buid a pc for around £400-£500 which would be far more powerfull, upgradable and versatile. However if you want an expensive looking box of tissues then go for the mini mac.


    HDMI to DVI adapters can be bought form Maplin. :)

    BTW I was also looking at the Buffalo dvd player, Kiss have a new one out to that plays HD and streams video off your pc.
     
  16. willwood

    willwood
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    I've read a couple of reviews of the Mac Mini in a HD setup and apparently it will handle it just fine. Apparently its only a problem if you are outputing as an analouge source via DVI, it can handle both 720p and 1080i apparently. So it seems that Apple may actually have the advantge for once :) Its got Bluetooth and can be controlled by your mobile, if you are on the phone your music/dvd will pause until you put the phone down, pretty cool way of controlling it. Of course what we really need is someone to put together something like XBMC for Mac OS X.

    The Buffalo isn't a DVD player its a 1TB network attached storage device, which I would use as a Media server accessed via the Mac Mini or XBox.
     
  17. St_ve

    St_ve
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    I'm in the early research stage of building a HTPC i had'nt thought of the Macmini as i thought it would be useless for hidef but i suppose you can't compare a different CPU architecture & operating system on purely Ghrz speeds.
    Look at how slow the Athlon 64 runs compared to the Pentium 4's but in real world performance terms Athlon has the edge.
    The processor i've pencilled in for my HTPC is a Pentium M that they use in the notebooks i saw some benchmarks with one overclcked to 2.2Ghz & it's perfomance beat some Athlon 64's running at 3.2 Ghrz & it also ran 10 degrees cooler.

    The Macmini would have to match the DVD playback quality of a PC with winDVD6
    are they compatable with any external usb 2 freeview digital TV boxes & can you change the DVD rom to a DVD burner
    Can u use an exteral USB 2 hardrive with it?
    And the most important thing for me seeing as i have about 130 region one DVDs is can it play region one (NTSC 60 hrz) DVD's properley , i presume you would be able to flash the bios to make the DVD player multi region or have access to a software program that disables multi region .
     
  18. willwood

    willwood
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    I can't see any reason why the DVD quality would be in any way inferior, the Mac Mini has DV out, you would need a USB device to provide a digital audio output as the Mini doesn't have one. The Mini can either be ordered with a DVD burner or you can fit one yourself but its probably just as cheap to order it with one pre-installed.

    Not sure about the set-top boxes but you could take a look at EyeTv products from Elgato.

    VLC will play DVD's region free.

    I could alsways bring mine round Steve and we could try it out. If you've got the content, I've got the Mini :) You free on Wednesday evening?
     
  19. willwood

    willwood
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    Well its got Gigabit and has 4 250GB disks which can either run as one big disk or RAID 5 if you want a bit of redundancy and don't mind lowering the capacity to 750GB. Basically these things are rock solid file servers, small too. Used in conjunction with an XBox they are good way of having a distributed media solution. http://www.buffalotech.co.uk/webcontent/products/storage/index.php?cat=TER
     
  20. St_ve

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    Quality of DVD playback on a PC varies with how good the software DVD player is, Windvd6 is very good.

    Yes Wednesday will be fine i'd love to see how the macmini copes with hidef playback. I have a DVI lead connected to the RD50
    i'll PM details
    :)
     
  21. Clippy

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    Sorry to butt in on this thread willwood but just how did you get Comet to crack on the old refund. I have been in there with an E-Mail from Sagem saying that the TV won't play HDCP (ie SKY HD) which was mentioned when the set was sold to me. The manager said they were waiting for the 'dust to settle' ie for Sky to make it official. Any leaverage at this point would be welcome. Thanks. ;)
     
  22. willwood

    willwood
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    My attack was twofold, Sagem & Comet. I wrote a leeter to Sagem telling me that at the point they sold the set in to the UK the HDCP standard had been ratified and were negligent supplying it to the UK market. Once I had a letter from them stating that they would take it back as DOA from Comet I had to argue with Comet for a refund. I bypassed the manager and wrote to the chief execs office basically saying lose the sale or lose the customer. It took 3 letters but in the end I think they realised I wasn't going away and gave me a refund, at this point the set was 5 months old! Managed to keep it for a month after my refund, thought I'd be as awkward as they had been and kept being out when they called to collect it :)

    Just be a pain in the ass.
     
  23. Clippy

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    Cheers for the responce willwood, sounds a lengthy process. I feel I ought to wait until Sky make it official as that's been the basis of my argument. Still an E-Mail to Comet wouldn't go amiss. Thanks again.
     
  24. willwood

    willwood
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    As far as I'm aware they had made it official. Some content will only be available via HDMI such as pay per view events and movies.
     
  25. Razor

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    They have said that they will support a limited HD service via component but if you want to see movies etc as Wilwood says you will need a HDCP compliant DVI or HDMI socket. New system, new rules, new technology :)
     
  26. Clippy

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    ......... for this fight as I don't quite understand the facts. This is the reply I have just received from Comet -
    Thank you for your e-mail.

    I can confirm that this matter has been passed through the store in question
    and our buying expert for such appliances.
    It has been confirmed that the new SKY box is coming out with RGB component outputs. Therefore the Sagem TV is HDTV compatible.

    This was the quick responce I sent after gleening a few facts from you boys in this thread -

    As this TV doesn't have a HDCP compliant DVI or HDMI socket then the Premium
    output from sky will not be able to be viewed, as it should be. In future I
    would like to comunicate via someone who is aware of the facts in this case.
    I would like the E-Mail address of the Comet chief execs office as I seem to
    be getting no joy/decision from this office.

    The problem is I am almost out of my depth here and could do with a few pointers. Thanks all. P.S. Why does this thread get shorter every time I return? Hehe. ;)
     
  27. St_ve

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    Clippy here is the definition for the new Euro High definition Label
    the Sagem 50" does not have a HDCP enabled DVI output so cannot use the Label :It says component and DVI or HDMI : it has to have both.
    My Optoma RD50 Also fails to meet the requirments as it cannot display 60 hrz NTSC ( unless a PC is used to convert to Pal)
     
  28. Clippy

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    Thanks for the responce St_ve but my argument with Comet revolves around the viewing of Sky HD as that is what the salesman kept banging on about not the TV being labeled HD-Ready. What is the difference between DVI input and RGB Scart, will the Scart be 'true' HD or am I missing something? Cheers.
     
  29. willwood

    willwood
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    Send a letter, not an email, it seems to have more of an effect these days, send it to
    Chief Executive
    Comet Group PLC
    George House
    George Street
    Hull
    HU1 3AU

    The line I would take is that without HDMI or a HDCP enabled DVI port the set will have limited functionality and as such is not fit for the purpose. It would appear that Sagem are more willing to help in this situation than Comet are, so try writting to Sagem and telling them that you are not happy and that you feel that they were negligent selling a non HDCP enabled TV in to the UK market when they had good reason to believe that HD content would require this functionality. Once you have a letter from Sagem saying they are prepared to take it back you should have no problem getting Comet to exchange it for something else. My fight with Comet was a little more complicated as after them messing me about and being utterly unhelpful I didn't think they deserved the sale, plus I wanted to buy the HD-45 from John Lewis so I could get the 5 year gurantee.

    I've pasted the letters below for your reference.

    First letter, sent both to Sagem & Comet
    6/12/04


    Dear Sir/Madame

    On the 2/11/04 I purchased a Sagem Axium 50” DLP TV from Comets Selly Oak branch in Birmingham. The purpose of buying the Sagem was to provide me with a TV that would fulfil all my viewing needs for the next 5 years, the set had an astounding picture and 9 AV connections, which I thought would ensure I had every connector I would need for many years to come.

    Having lived with the set for just over a month I am becoming increasingly concerned. The TV is high definition but it is becoming apparent that it will neither be compatible with HD-DVD or Sky’s HD service launched in 2006. This is due to the set not having HDMI or HDCP copy protection on the DVI port. These two omissions are fatal with regards to HD, what good is a HD TV if you will be unable to play any HD content on it? The second problem I have with it is the fan noise, which is impossible to hear in the showroom because of all the ambient noise.

    I’m left feeling like I have bought a duck, every other HD ready TV ships with a HDMI port or HDCP on the DVI port. Even the Optima RD50 which is a rebadged Sagem has the HDCP support, surely it must be possible to upgrade the Sagem.

    I would like some clarification from Sagem as to what will be done about this. Ideally I would like an upgraded board fitted free of charge.

    Second letter to Comet

    23/2/05


    Dear Sir/Madame

    Please refer to my previous letter dated the 6/12/04

    Further to my previous letter I received confirmation in writing from Sagem that they would accept the set back from Comet as a DOA. In a telephone conversation with Sagem they told me that I could either have the set replaced with another model or refunded.

    This was agreed with the deputy manager in store after seeing the letter. At that time I had requested a replacement. On the 20th February after no word from the store I went in to request a refund and was told that you would not refund only replace. I then went over the manager’s head and complained to head office and spoke to Louise. Louise was initially sympathetic but after speaking to the manager also refused to refund. I was told that it was not a case of you couldn’t refund but that you wouldn’t. It has not been made clear to me why you won’t, it would appear as though the profit margin of a few hundred pounds is incredibly important to Comet. It would appear as though Comet are simply now being bloody-minded over the matter.

    I feel that the attitude of Comet in this matter is very short sighted. You appear to be willing to hold on to this sale at the expense of loosing the goodwill of the customer. Sometimes it is better to lose the sale, and retain a long-term happy customer.
    The attitude of Comet all along has been adversarial and not very helpful, it is only down to the good customer service of Sagem that I have gotten anywhere, Comet could learn a great deal from them.

    I am now utterly fed up with Comet and their attitude, if this matter isn’t resolved to my satisfaction then I will never again by from a Comet store, and as ever will tell everyone I know of this bad experience. In times of increased Internet shopping retail should be bending over backwards to accommodate its customers not fighting them over the profit margin of a single sale.

    Comet has a simple choice to make, lose the sale or lose the customer. What are you going to do to make me a happy customer?

    I'm well known for getting my own way :)
     
  30. Clippy

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    Now your talking willwood. Absolute dynamite. I'm a little soft when it comes to the crunch but I'm feeling ripped-off and getting the urge to see this matter all the way to the death. A big thankyou for the insight into your battle with Sagem/Comet and I will keep you abreast of my situation. Cheers-All. :thumbsup:
     

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