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Confused about 720p and 1080P ?

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by jimbob19, Jun 8, 2004.

  1. jimbob19

    jimbob19
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    I had almost decided to get the flexible friend out and buy a panny pwd6.
    However I notice it is 852 x 480 , does this mean it will only be capable of 720P HD , or can it not even do that ?
    I am looking to future proof my purchase (as much as I can)
    Do I need the higher definition ? Also if buying a higher definition plasma , is the PQ improved i.e. less grainy , pixels less noticeable
    Sorry to be a pain in the Ar** but I know most of you guys know your stuff !!
    I will mainly be watching cable (via my Tivo) and DVD's

    Thanks
     
  2. buns

    buns
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    You cant do 720p without the use of scaling of some sort. Unless you intend to get high quality video processing, the standard panasonic is great (and even if you do intend to, it is still great).

    all the best

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  3. jimbob19

    jimbob19
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    Cheers Buns

    So why is ther a need for 1024 by 768 Plasma ?
    Does it not really make any difference to the PQ for TV , DVD viewing ?

    Thanks
     
  4. Messiah

    Messiah
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    Best picture quality is obtained by using native resolution if possible. A XXX x 720 display panel will be able to show 720p material in it's native format. Most of the time this will mean the quality will be better than a lower or higher res panel where scaling would be needed to deliver the image.

    The Panasonic panels (852x480) certainly do look very good as they appear to have excellent scalers and very good CR. However, when you down scale any image, no matter how well it is done, you will be losing information. In the case of watching 720p on a 480 panel you will, by the very nature of the resolutions, be losing 1/3rd of the image information. Too much in my book - even though I am the first to admit that I am still amazed how good the picture looks on the Panny units. Just imagine how jaw dropping the image would be on a HD Panny panel.

    Even with standard PAL TV you will be losing information as the image will be downscaled from 576 lines (excluding the few lines used for text info etc, so more like 525 lines) to 480 lines. Will also depend what resolution your TiVo is recording in though as by default I don't think it records at full PAL resolution.
     
  5. AndyH

    AndyH
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    I was just about to post a very similar question!

    I guess then that for future proof-ness, I should get the new ones with 1366x768.

    But I'm confused. How come Pioneers are 1280x768 and NEC are 1365x768...

    Is it to do with shape of pixels?

    Yours,
    confused.
     
  6. Messiah

    Messiah
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    As far as I am aware the pioneer 43" is 1024x768 and the 50" is definitely 1366 x 768 (True 16:9 :) )
     
  7. buns

    buns
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    I would debate some of these points. Native resolution is king with a digital connection, NOT an analogue. I would additonally debate that 720p from something like a dvd player may look better on the SD than the HD, dont forget that this will be relatively cheap video processing. Although the SD loses out with PAL, the HD has a good chance of looking worse given it has had to upscale (much harder than descaling).

    Frankly, unless you are going to be using a video processor of the likes of lumagen/iscanHD/crystallio, dont bother with the panasonic HD and get the SD. If you are insistant on spending the money that the HD costs, you will certainly get a better image by using the SD with one such video processor.

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  8. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    hmmmm, not what I want to hear when I'm in the middle or arranging to swap my Viera SD for the 42PHD6! I'm going to a lot of hassle to do this as well and having to return the DMRE85 that I got for £100 with the Viera! Seriously, the SD cannot be as good as the HD when it comes to things like WM9 at 720p (which will shortly be playable on Kiss dvd players I believe). Or even something like the Yamakawa which can upscale normal DVDs to 720p, doesn't common sense dictate that it will look better on the HD? I feel the need to swap because of the lack of 720p support on the Viera model, are we saying that the normal 42PWD6 with 720p support (albeit downscaled to 480 lines) will look nigh on as good as the HD? I wish I could see them side by side and make my decision that way but unfortunately I don't have that luxury.

    Andy
     
  9. bobbles

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    why can't you see them in a demo?

    I am sure I read that AV Sales will demo plasmas. Why not ask them, it could be worth the trip for piece of mind.
     
  10. Messiah

    Messiah
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    Well, I did say 'most of the time...' and I also do not believe, no matter how good or how much the scaler, that an image which has had information removed can look as good as one using the full resolution with nothing removed (obviously assuming similar quality kit). Also for me, I see the pixels on an SD panel which is very off-putting although I do accept many won't or will get used to it.

    Either way, as great as I (personally) think the SD POanny panels are I would not buy an SD display. But that's just me.
     
  11. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I'd say that you can actually extrapolate detail using intelligent processing meaning that MORE pixels than the native resolution of the format may actually give a better image.

    Gordon
     
  12. Brogan

    Brogan
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    I thought the 504HDE was 1280 x 768 or are you talking about the new MXE panel?
     
  13. buns

    buns
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    Agreed that it is better to use the full resolution of a signal if possible, but the majority of current signals are not 720p and upscaling dvd players may not be good enough to stop them actually looking better downscaled on a lower res panel.

    What is a definite is that something like sky will look worse on the HD than the SD panel..... unless you have good processing of course.

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  14. Messiah

    Messiah
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    Oops :blush: You're right. Getting my panels mixed up.
     
  15. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    All the Pioneer 50" panels are 1280x768 HDE and MXE, its the Panasonic (and others) that are 1366x768 (true 16:9)...
     
  16. Koing

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    1366 x 768 : 16:9 (pixels are 1:1 so they are SQUARE pixels

    1280x768 : (pixels are NOT SQUARE but you still get 16:9 because the pixel's are not square so it is fine.)

    Koing
     
  17. JayBee

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  18. NeilMcRae

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    In my experience resolution is only really an issue if you have PC use. For DVD/TV viewing or console playing its not that big an issue. I've had a good play with a HD and SD panel and the only thing that would drive me to go for an HD panel is because I play alot of PC games.

    The next issue is the quality of the HD and SD panels. i.e. The HD6 panel from Panasonic has more resolution but its also clear that the panel is much better quality picture wise and this is not because of the resolution but because of the panel construction. bear in mind that the Panny 6HD can't display 720p at its native resolution and there is some scaling involved. [720p is 1280 wide].

    Here is a useful document that the Beeb done on this issue:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP025.pdf

    Cheers,
    Neil.
     
  19. csayers

    csayers
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    This thread is great!

    I was also going to post a similar message and have gone through exactly the same thought process as you jimbob19, PW6 - but then it high enough res?

    I will use my new screen exclusivley through PC / HTPC for Freeview TV via DVB PCI card, DVD, games and some Hi-Def stuff (WM9 and TS)

    I was wondering about the Hitachi plasma's as they are 1000 x 1000 (non square pixels) via DVI or going for a smaller screen (32") LCD that will be WXGA 1336 x 768

    Neither will do full 1080 HD but from my experiance this needs a kick ass PC - particularly for WM9-HD decoding

    At least the LCD would have the piece of mind of no burn-in, although this has improved alot I have the kind of mates that fall asleep drunk on the sofa leaving a DVD on pause all night :nono:

    Unfortunatley by budget can't run to the HD 42" plasmas.

    Any suggestions of which will be my best option?

    Chris.
     
  20. jimbob19

    jimbob19
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    Glad its not just me Chris :laugh:
    After reading through all the threads I'm starting to lean more towards a PW6
    I just dont know if I can justify the extra cost for a HD , knowing that we are a couple of years of from HD tv. My only real concern was I am already getting an ear bashing from the wife , about being able to notice the pixels on a 42" pw6 and wondered if they were noticeable on the HD version . But that again leads me to worry that with the HD version and our crap broadcast (mines NTL cable) would the digital jiggery pokery be more noticeable on these lower quality broadcasts :zonked:
     
  21. Jasonjo

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    There has been quite a bit of chat recently about getting the best out an SD panel, including this thread...

    After a bit of research I had pretty much convinced myself that sending a signal to the SD screen at the native rate of 852x480 (480P) was the way to go. I didn't even consider whether this "rule" applied to digital or analogue as I assumed they would be the same. Therefore, when I got my iScan HD processor I spent a bit of time working out how to get the native resolution (also known as 1:1 pixel mapping) when connecting to my screen using RGBHV (i.e. analogue)

    After keeping up with the forum I noticed that people said that this "1:1 rule" was only valid for the digital domain (i.e. when using a DVI input) but some pretty knowledgeable people were saying that they were sending 720P even though they have SD panels.

    So recently I had a play and reconfigured my scaler to send a 720P signal instead of 480P - I am not sure about others, but I noticed quite a bit of an improvement with this change...I am not 100% sure why this is so (I know Gordon has explained it a few times :)) but it does improve my picture even though it seems to go against logic :)

    So definitely don't rule out SD screens, even if you can send 720P or above resolutions or want to splash out on a scaler...

    JJ
     
  22. Deron

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    Have you tried sending a higher res to it...

    I'm interested in how good 1080 would look on a sd screen.
     
  23. Jasonjo

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    Haven't personally tried 1080 yet...I have spent more time tinkering than watching lately ;)

    I think 720P is the optimum though...

    JJ
     

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