CONFIRMED: BluRay and HD DVD downscale analogue HDTV outputs -- it's HDMI or nothing

[StooMonster]

http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2006/02/new_format_play.html

I wondered what would happen to the signal on the analogue outputs of the HD DVD and BluRay that were recently demonstrated at various shows. Now we know ... downscaled content, only HDMI connection gets the proper HD picture.

I for one will be buying a 'naughty box', this DRM infection stuff is poisonous and anti-consumer.

StooMonster

 

[Attu]

HDMI and DVI as long as its HDCP compliant.

 

[DanDT]

It's bad i know, and i feel awful, but personally i wouldn't want my super-expensive HD-player (be it HDDVD or Bluray) to be plugged to my TV with anything less than digital cables anyway, so as to get the best picture anyway. So i'm safe. But for people who bought HDTVs before digital was mainstream, it's a bit of a rip off.

 

[StooMonster]

Or other non-television displays, e.g. CRT projectors.

StooMonster

 

[StooMonster]

HDMI and DVI as long as its HDCP compliant.

Have they said that? DVI can only carry 8-bit RGB and no sound.

StooMonster

 

[Moosh]

Another site is carrying this story too:
http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/early_hdtv_adopters_screwed_by_hddisc_rules.html

Looking for someone to blame for all this? Pick your target: AACS was jointly developed by Disney, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Panasonic, Sony, Toshiba, and Warner.

Moosh

 

[Attu]

Have they said that? DVI can only carry 8-bit RGB and no sound.

StooMonster

It mentiones it in that artical ... "HD DVD / Blu-ray players, will cause any video connection other than HDMI or DVI to be downscaled to something like a quarter of the resolution it is capable of."

Andy

 

[ianh64]

I don't see the big story. Its simply mirroring the situation that has existed for licensed upscaling DVD players for the last 2 years and more.

 

[Evil Engineer]

Have they said that? DVI can only carry 8-bit RGB and no sound.

StooMonster

If it's HDMI compliant it has to be backwards compatable with DVI.

Isn't that in the HDMI spec?

Knocking out 80% of your prospective market for digital copy protection reasons is bad enough, but locking out another 10-20% of those that are left for no reason at all would be just stupid.

My DVD player has the option of either RGB or component via the HDMI port so there would be no reason for Bluray/HD-DVD players not to have colour space conversion either.

 

[richard plumb]

I thought AACS allowed for a flag (set by the studio) to determine whether HD can be carried over component? i.e. its not mandatory

Whether all studios will simply flip the switch is another matter.

 

[StooMonster]

It mentiones it in that artical ...

Doh!

StooMonster

 

[Muf]

Have a look at this translated article. It is not easy to follow but suggests a less rigid implimentation of the AACS copy protection on the first generation HD players. I think marketing rules will apply, in order to sell to the potential customers they will have to cater to their needs.
http://translate.google.com/transla...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=/language_tools

Jim.

 

[colonel_butt]

Just as hacked DVD players have neutered region codes, so hacked players will easily get rid of this rubbish quickly. I bought a samsung upscale DVD which said hdmi only in manual. But hack on internet allowed it to send 720p, 748p and 1080i to component.

HDDVD will have no region codes as the manufacturers have admitted its pointless. bluray will, as sony loves as much DRM as possible.

I have a HD plasma with only component and vga input. My media PC plays great HD films, and will as well when an hddvd internal drives comes out. xbox 360 is great over component and the first sky hd boxes will have component. keene electronics make a HDMI/DVI--->component box which strips out HDCP in any event.

Good component out can not be differentiated from HDMI. In my opinion its all a con to get people to buy more kit and put in DRM, which is going to be hacked out as soon as it appears!

 

[gizlaroc]

Just as hacked DVD players have neutered region codes, so hacked players will easily get rid of this rubbish quickly. I bought a samsung upscale DVD which said hdmi only in manual. But hack on internet allowed it to send 720p, 748p and 1080i to component.

HDDVD will have no region codes as the manufacturers have admitted its pointless. bluray will, as sony loves as much DRM as possible.

I have a HD plasma with only component and vga input. My media PC plays great HD films, and will as well when an hddvd internal drives comes out. xbox 360 is great over component and the first sky hd boxes will have component. keene electronics make a HDMI/DVI--->component box which strips out HDCP in any event.

Good component out can not be differentiated from HDMI. In my opinion its all a con to get people to buy more kit and put in DRM, which is going to be hacked out as soon as it appears!

Agree totally, I have said that for the last couple of years. There are ways to hack players and scalers to keep the analogue outs going, it has already been done.

And I am yet to see an HDMI connection beat an analogue connection apart from on cheap displays.

 

[rigman]

And the sun will set on analog video for good after Dec. 31, 2013

And the copy protection sun will set before Dec 31 2006.

I will bet money on it

 

[Stoelen]

And the copy protection sun will set before Dec 31 2006.

I will bet money on it

I am sorry AACS will stop all kinds of copying! The players will be modified all the time. It will be done by putting in a new film and the disc will modified the player, and you will not know anything about the upgrading of AACS going on. You will not be able to play copies at all.The good thing is that the regional coding will not be under AACS protection. So it only needs one young hacker to make it regionfree. AACS is military strength encryption and un-hackable!!! NB! If a hacker find a way to modify maliciously,players will stop playing disc.Who wants to take a risk??
Not me!
Stoelen

 

[Steve.J.Davies]

it doesn't need to be hacked to be made untenable in the field.
haven't looked at the maths behind it yet so this is spitballing but a DOS attack on may make it untenable. e.g.
Cause a large number of invalid revocations.
The large scale pirates will easily be able to afford their own PCBs.
Leaks from inside the industry will still happen.

They do seem to have covered the end-to-end chain architecturally but this kind of thing only as strong as its weakest link. There are other attacks than hacking the encryption - quite a few of them. The real pirates can afford quite a bit of bribery/influence etc.

Could it defeat the NSA (seems doubtful)? If not its not unbreakable. Its a matter of cost to break it. That or go for the weak part in any security system - the wetware element.

Only time will tell.

This is just another run of the entertainment industry being so self protective - they feared radio would ruin their music business long ago. how short sighted can you get ? Now its more severe as some big companies have a presence throught the chain - e.g. Sony

Meanwhile the adult industry uses a different business models, doesn't protect its content and seems to be doing well enough.


Only time will tell.

 

[colonel_butt]

I am sorry AACS will stop all kinds of copying! The players will be modified all the time. It will be done by putting in a new film and the disc will modified the player, and you will not know anything about the upgrading of AACS going on. You will not be able to play copies at all.The good thing is that the regional coding will not be under AACS protection. So it only needs one young hacker to make it regionfree. AACS is military strength encryption and un-hackable!!! NB! If a hacker find a way to modify maliciously,players will stop playing disc.Who wants to take a risk??
Not me!
Stoelen

Hey Stoelen,

I hate to disagree with you, but I do ;->

Firstly military encryption is unhackable only because:
1. It changes frequently
2. The hardware at both ends is custom
3. The keys are changed regularly and not transmitted.

AACS will fall within 6 months of wide implementation.

How do I know this ?

Well lets just say I have an avid interest in satellite TV.
Seca was unhackable, then it was hacked. Seca2 was unhackable because the nano codes changed all the time. Then it was hacked. Viaaccess was unhackable then it was hacked. AES codes changing daily were added to Viaacess, then AES was hacked. Nagra was ..... well you get the picture. I am not going to talk about ND$ as its too dangerous at the moment, but bob knows the score! As a minority persuit with no one to sue its not worth his while. Although if it because widespread, well thats different.

But content that 'modifiable' that you paid for. Will be done and will be un-challengable in court. Think about it. You subscribe to $ky movies. But you have a component only tv. You follow some instructions on the internet which simply activates the decoding for component (nothing needs to be hacked here, just ignore the 'stop decoding' signal - even if encrypted). You watch movies you have paid for ??? nothing illegal. Just like hacking region codes. It'll all be over before its started.

rgds

 

[Flimber]

colonel_butt,

You conveniently haven't mentioned Sky's hackability there

Mike.

 

[Steve.J.Davies]

Hey Stoelen,

I hate to disagree with you, but I do ;->

Firstly military encryption is unhackable only because:
1. It changes frequently
2. The hardware at both ends is custom
3. The keys are changed regularly and not transmitted.

Basically true - however these steps alone are not (even) enough to ensure unhackability.

I say again, encryption is a privacy measure not a copy protection measure.
its the end-to-end solution that is being imposed/attempted with HDCP that is the copy protection measure.
Example.
Here is some encrypted text:-

6957 2053 7371 0649


Can you copy this ? Yes you can.

 

[StooMonster]

I bought a samsung upscale DVD which said hdmi only in manual. But hack on internet allowed it to send 720p, 748p and 1080i to component.

HDDVD will have no region codes as the manufacturers have admitted its pointless. bluray will, as sony loves as much DRM as possible.

This is why Samsung are now being sued by MPAA for distributing these players that allow HDCP to be removed -- they are making an example of them so others don't follow.

Although HD DVD originally said "no region codes" it's looking increasingly like that is not going to be the case, due to pressure from MPAA.

The legal action against Samsung is designed to scare manufacturers into not allowing "region free" and "HDCP free" next gen players; and if the manufacturers don't enable this stuff, consumers are screwed.

StooMonster

 

[Member 55145]

hmmm just wondering.
the next gen format will go onto pc. im sure some whizzkid will enable a way of outputting HD from ports other than HDMI
how will HD-DVD work when its [legally]ripped to PC? you play it back on the pc monitor? i dont see any HDCP/hdmi monitors...does it go straight out of the HDMI port? im sure a whizzkid will make it play back on your VGA monitor

other than that im sure many HDMI HDCP strippers will come flooding out of the chinese market even if its a DIY kit to avoid legal nasties.

what exactly is the rules about HDCP anyway?
from what i gather its Source to display

what about source to amp to display? surely the amp has to do something with the signal even if its copying it?. what stops a manufacturer (probably chinese ) making a hdmi to hdmi box with component out via SD..... then whoops a schematic is released on the internet of how to "cut" a wire which stops the component to be limited to SD

there are ways and methods is theres the will to do it. as the format hasnt even been released yet i think its safe to say theres a keen interest in "fixing" this problem

 

[colonel_butt]

These court cases are interesting. Lets see the outcome and whether we end up with a big brother society or a free market.

Not wanting to be political -))) but the free market produces the best society for the disadvantaged and the advantaged as it exerts balance and allows money and resources to flow by osmosis where they are needed. The free market always has a way of exerting its will. Even in controlled or communist/fascist societies the free market always wins, its just more traumatic and bloody for societies that have more inherent friction in their governance systems.

Basically people can't charge for what the market won't bear. I am happy to buy a CD, and not download the music, as long as I am not being totally conned. For the music and video companies to make money, they must offer a good service at a reasonable price. iTunes is so big because the music is reasonable (ok, a bit expensive) but you can choose the tracks you like. CDs haven't totally died, as you can download everything you want, as people like the quality, like to browse in virgin mega and like the shiny case.

Basically all attempts to control what you have purchased 'post-purchase' are doomed to fail, as it takes away ownership and free choice and therefore interest in buying.

We are going through a thick statute problem in the US with loads of big brother legislation regarding the internet and goods sales. The EU bands 'grey imports' of clothing by supermarkets as its nepotism towards cousins who own fashion houses. However everyone can buy on the internet and pop over to NY to get stuff cheap. This doesn't work any more. So called 'right on' google chuck their principles out in a second to get cash from China.

As Churchill said "Capitalism is the worst system in the world, except compared to all other systems ....."

 

[MartinImber]

This is why Samsung are now being sued by MPAA for distributing these players that allow HDCP to be removed -- they are making an example of them so others don't follow.

Although HD DVD originally said "no region codes" it's looking increasingly like that is not going to be the case, due to pressure from MPAA.

The legal action against Samsung is designed to scare manufacturers into not allowing "region free" and "HDCP free" next gen players; and if the manufacturers don't enable this stuff, consumers are screwed.

StooMonster

WHo has the most money here - perhaps Samsung can take down the MPAA

 

[Steve.J.Davies]

Free markets ? what free markets ?? Trade agrements and restrictive licensing abound.
There is no free market in AV. Although technically the EU insists on allowing purchasers to buy from wherever they want in the EU the practice is somewhat different.

EU still supports the Trade Mark Protection Agreement - which is what the big companies use to ban grey imports (viz: the cheap jeans story). Though for the life of me how importing genuine goods is possible going to harm a trade mark is beyond me. It won't, what it will harm is the fixed pricing in different markets.

e.g. beer sold in the UK as a premium brand sold as run of the mill stuff in europe - yet its the same beer at the same cost to produce.

Of course the UK is a mega example of inflated prices to boot.