Confessions of a know nothing (HS900 probs)

numptydumpty

Active Member
I would have thought you had worked out what a know nothing dipstick I am by now Shadowman....EVERYTHING I do is on auto :laugh::laugh:

Good thinking though :D

Cheers, Dave.
 

numptydumpty

Active Member
Hi Guys,

Well, we tried what we could, checked what we could, but the settings looked right, couldn't find anything that looked wrong. S in L looked into the driver update thing, and there seemed to be no updates available since My laptop was bought, so no way of updating. Tried little files containing panning on their own as suggested, even took a file out of one of the holidays on the camcorders on-board HDD, in case the card I had bought and used for the first time was not up to the job. The panning on the HDD trial MAY have been slightly less juddery, but it was close, so may have been down to better panning as much as anything else....and it remains a fact that when viewed by plugging the cam directly into the TV via HDMI...the juddering does NOT occur on either card or HDD, so that puts that idea out of the window.

I mentioned your thoughts that the files being edited should be on the C-drive of the PC, rather than the external HDD. Tried small files that way...same problem. The other consideration on that thought is that the S in L said my laptop is certainly not capable of doing all that, not powerful enough for storing, editing and rendering I gather. He also mentioned that people doing serious editing commonly use several linked external HDD's for that purpose. It's all beyond me, so only passing on others words in both direction :D

I didn't try rendering in a lower def. format, because it would break my heart to do so. My WHOLE AIM in all my struggles so far is to be able to watch these holidays etc. in the glorious full HD they were recorded in. I have great respect for Harry, but I cannot agree with his analogy regarding this issue. For me, DVD quality is not 'Good enough'. I would never have spent the money and effort that I have done on obtaining HD devices, if lower quality formats satisfied me. To my mind it is a subjective thing, and HD ticks all the boxes for me. I NEVER upgrade anything just because an upgrade is available....it has to be a big improvement (to MY WAY of seeing it) to make me go for it. The fact is, when I first viewed HD footage, I was mesmerised...I absolutely adored the clarity, sharpness, depth and range of colours etc., I truly fell in love at first sight, as it were...although I am aware that others do NOT see it that way. However, I challenge ANYONE to view some of my underwater footage of corals and reef fish from some of the worlds tropical coral reefs in HD...and tell me they would be just as stunning in DVD quality.

Anyway, enough of that...I am baffled lads. I can only surmise that the sad little low power laptop I am using is the root of the problem...but what the 'eck do I know? (My laptop specs are on earlier posts if you are interested.) I DO know that I no longer have the funds to bosh out £1000 upwards for a powerhouse PC (which I wouldn't understand anyway) for this exercise alone, 'cos I wouldn't use it for owt else....me being me :D

Woe is me.

Cheers, Dave.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Hi, my explanation was #40 and we're up to #53 - On DVD quality, I was suggesting why many folks accept it - it's convenient and most venues can handle it.

Sure, the quality difference is noticible, provided yr eyesight is good . . . but remember that many filmmakers with fancy kit are likely to have less than perfect eyesight, so DVD is quite acceptable.

Surely, when you've sorted out the settings and storage - you can try BlueRay as well as HDD's - however, you may find that a new format is upon us - that of Super HD - possibley not 4K (although I hope it is) because broadband delivery is unlikely to be up to it - - - and what's driving this is home-cinema. Esp. where children need to be encouraged to stay (safe at_) home. It's possible that BlueRay will be replaced by UV-Ray but costs will spiral for some years.

That said you still need to sort out your recording/editing/rendering/storage.
Good luck.
 

numptydumpty

Active Member
I know Harry, and of course you are absolutely right as usual. I am well aware of the fact that chasing 'the latest gadget/format/whatever' is a journey fraught with danger for the sanity of the person involved....the 'newest gadget' is of course old hat before you get it plugged in :D

However (I always have one of those close to hand :laugh:) I will not be in hot pursuit of the things you mention on the rapidly approaching latest HD horizon, although I do know they are in the offing. I have done with all that...I know and accept that my age, financial situation and pure lack of technological skills would prevent my even thinking along those lines. It is just that I feel certain that the HD variants I have used to record my holidays are not....or at least should not be...beyond the means of a competent person to transfer to a storage device which my good lady can handle....and I am assured by many that an external HDD is the way to go.

I am painfully aware that I am not (nor ever will be) that 'competent person'....my brain is not, for whatever reason, of much use in that direction. Sad but true, hence my coming to you guys. I understand that lowering my expectations vis a vis picture quality is one way out of this mess, I have always understood that (not least because many would find that option as being a perfectly reasonable way to go)....but to me, to take that road is to admit defeat....and the end results would set my teeth on edge like nails drawn down a blackboard every time I viewed them :rolleyes:

I really hope I haven't offended you Harry, that genuinely would be the last thing I wish to do. It is just such a fine line I am walking while trying to explain where, for me, the line is drawn in the sand....and upsetting folk who are doing their damnedest to help by suggesting the more common sense road to take. I guess I am literally looking for the needle in the haystack item of information that I can pass on to my S in L to enable him to solve this frustrating problem for me. The problem is made worse by the fact that I am probably not savvy enough to recognise the 'needle' when it appears....nor capable of passing it on to him in a useful form.

I think your final comment 'Good luck' is quite possibly the most telling phrase in this whole thread :(

Regards, Dave.
 

TheShadowman

Active Member
Dave.

You may be a technical Numpty, somewhat like me to an extent. But you can be proud of the way you write, it's shows you're no numpty in real life and that's what counts
 

Bob++

Active Member
Sadly for me, I need to put all those tapes on my HDD/s as well, so I think my hair may be a lovely shade of white by the time the worry of all this has taken it's toll

In view of your current problems etc, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to send them off and get them converted to digital professionally.

There are many companies that do it and a search for "convert tapes to digital video" will bring some up. Not a cheap option but it may depend on how much you value your hair.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
No offence taken, numptydumpty.
I too like to have the "best quality" - although experience demonstrates that I need to learn the Trade far longer, since the HD format does show up faults (esp focus!).

That's a good idea Bob++ although potentially costly; - but before that . . . . I don't recall suggesting OP joins a Local FilmMaking club - there he'll get plenty of advice and maye offer to help.
So here goes:- "Join a club."

A consideration is that OP has many overseas films which might be commercial* - shots of beaches, City centres and national dress, etc. can be used by other filmmakers to "set the scene" - indeed I am searching for shots of Paris, French countryside, etc. for greenscreening. No doubt available off the internet, but.... sometimes that is just too tiresome.

Most Clubs have "challenge nights" where a member will set a theme and small groups compete to get it finished for the next meeting. Using overseas material for a "travlelogue" might produce a handful of interpretations.
Something for you and the Misses, to act as Judges, perhaps?
You need only provide say six clips of about 5-15 sec each (allows for cutting), or a little longer of a "general view" - - - something to consider when you set-up next holiday shots. Esp trying to match the colour/exposure so they form a consistent whole.

* Commercial sites usually require a higher standard that "HD" so that colour grading can be performed, this means camcorders likel XF305 and whilst therse have great features they appear to offer little that an ordinary "HD" camcorder claims . . . except when you see it on the big screen.
But at £4k5 I'd hope it would turn the sunshine on!.



Good luck.
 
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numptydumpty

Active Member
Hi 12Harry,

Thanks for your further thoughts on my problems, and I take your point about local clubs....I would imagine (and certainly hope) the type of club you have in mind would be slightly different to my first experience of something of that ilk. Many years ago, when I first bought an SLR still camera, I joined a local photographic club, expecting that as I was totally clueless about such things (nothing new there then :laugh:) I would be bathed in a sea of experts who would soon put me right. Frighteningly for me, I was told in no uncertain terms that the idea was you entered the regular competitions, offered up you best efforts for judgement by others...and learned from your mistakes. Probably a reasonable idea in reality....but a little daunting for a total beginner! The best bit was that they seemed to hire young lady models at regular intervals, who posed, scantily clad and in multi positions, while the members clicked away with their cameras for all they were worth....pleasant, but the results were unlikely to amuse my good lady :D

Seriously though, I have done a lot of thinking about everyone's comments and suggestions, and the common thread amongst all of you is that the root problem is my laptop, it just doesn't have the processing power to do the job...lack of ram, poor graphics card and low power processing in all aspects. So, I decided to have one last splash at this...encouraged by a decent offer in a local shop. I found another Sony Vaio laptop which I was assured would do the job...at a decent price (£749) The specs are :-

Model SVE1712Z1EB.

Intel Core i7 3632QM processor, speed 2.2GHz to 3.2GHz with turbo boost.

8GB RAM.

AMD Radeon HD 7650M Graphics card, with 2GB video RAM.

1TB Hard Drive.



CD/DVD/Blu-Ray Drive.

802.11b/g/n, bluetooth wireless networking.

3 x USB 2.0 ports, 1 x USB 3.0 port.

HDMI and other usual outputs.


I would hope the sellers were right, and that this will do the job. I got SO very close with my much older, much lower spec machine (The judder on the panning being the only issue) that I will be amazed if not. Actually, the sellers will be amazed if this doesn't work as well, because it will be returned and placed in a very painful place :D

I will let you know what occurs lads.

My very best regards,

Dave.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Er, why didn't you take yr camcorder and ask them to prove it was OK for the purpose?

On the face of it it looks a high spec, but budget NLE's are 32-bit so your memory may be restricted. I presume yr OS is Win7 (or 8?) 64-bit . . . . so check Sony-Creative to see if Movie Studio will work under 64-bit (although it's a 32-bit prog) - the "suggestion" being that somehow it might "page" the memory but it's far from clear.

Having a dedicated graphics-card is good; but you should have checked if it's on the Sony card-list for Rendering.

Camera-Clubs - yr experience was like mine, although the YL's wern't so young . . . I found there was little "co-operation" - By comparison most video-clubs are better, as video needs Teams of several . . . but there's nothing to stop you both joining. Ladies are often in short-supply.
 

vkmast

Active Member
I presume yr OS is Win7 (or 8?) 64-bit . . . . so check Sony-Creative to see if Movie Studio will work under 64-bit (although it's a 32-bit prog)

harry,
I'm not Sony-Creative or even related to them, but I can once again assure you that (Vegas) Movie Studio 10 (32-bit app), 11 (32-bit app) and 12 (32-bit and 64-bit apps) will work in Win7 64-bit OS.
I still have them all installed on the same machine (mainly for testing).
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Yep, Thanks

I know it will "Work" - but so do most 32-bit progams ( and so does DVD Architect Pro which is 32-bit), - the WinOS just runs in 32-bit . . . . I understood that Sony had fixed their software so it could take advantage of the 64-bit space . . . . this isn't the same thing . . . but then Marketeers never let a good story get in the way of fact. I've seen the v12 box and this does suggest 64-bit operation (so v11 as well?) . . . but v10 does not mention this as an Option.......one wonders of this is an effect of Sony Software writers, or Microsoft has found a way to use more memory?

Is there some way you can test this, as you appear to be well-palced to Report back. I don't know, but presumably some aspect that is memory-intensive might show a definate improvement compared with running on a 32-bit OS with 3G of memory and nominally similar graphics cards (so the graphics card doesn't lend a hand, as it were).

I saw a very impressive Test by Sony-Creative (a few months ago), using identical computers, but one had the right Graphics card fitted and took about a third the time to render . . . I presume both used Pro and both were 64-bit OS.
 

vkmast

Active Member
harry,
I don't want to hijack this thread, but FYI

Vegas Movie Studio can now address up to 4 GB of memory when running on a 64-bit version of Windows Vista or Windows 7.
(Release notes of VMSP 11 build 283, 32-bit)

There was the so-called 64-bit fix before that. Google if you want to know more.

64-bit support. (Release notes of VMSP 12 initial build)
What does 64-bit Support actually mean ?
64-bit Support means that Movie Studio Platinum 12 can hypothetically use all the available spare memory (RAM) installed on your computer that isn't being used by other resources.


A 32-bit application installed to a 64-bit OS is running up against a built-in memory limitation, the same of which would be enforced by a 32-bit OS. Current and previous 32-bit versions of Microsoft Windows can only allocate a maximum of 2 GB of memory to each running process, regardless how much real or virtual memory is available on a particular machine.
A 64-bit application installed to a 64-bit system is not subject to the same memory limitation.

(SCS Knowledgebase article 5050)
 

numptydumpty

Active Member
Oh dear, oh dear :confused: The shop where I found my bargain (?) was John Lewis. I did explain my problems and the laptop I currently had to the person I was dealing with, and he assured me that this new one would do the trick. However, at the end of the day they are only shop assistants with a reasonable but limited knowledge. They are streets ahead of me, but still limited. I don't think that taking my laptop in would have been of any benefit, because a shop like that has neither the time, inclination nor facilities to carry out long winded or meaningful tests for me.

The facts are, given the choice and the money (I did consider it, but SO expensive) I would have gone for a much more powerful iMac (a lovely neat and admirably capable solution) or at least a desk top PC, which would have given me much more bang for my buck. However, I am, as I have said all along, a total numpty with this (or any other) technology. So...I consulted my 'brain', my 'man who does for me' (my son in law) and he explained that apart from the cost, an iMac involves a whole different type of technology, one that 'A'....I would not be able to cope with, and 'B'....was one he himself has not got involved in, so would not be able to help me with. A TOTAL dead end for me there then! To confound and complicate things further, my good lady got upset at the thought of my buying a desk top, because it involved a 'tower', and other separate parts to clutter her house up even more :eek:....so you see the constraints and frustrations I am up against :(

The machine I bought was a 'returned' one, a laptop that had been sold but bought straight back. It is in 'as new' condition, with a three year guarantee....and a discount of £150 on the new price, so did fit my budget. However, if you REALLY think it will not do the job Harry (I couldn't follow the stuff you got involved in with vkmast...it made my head hurt :D) then I could attempt to return it as not being suitable...though I don't know if that's possible. I just thought it had SO much more of everything that I was being told my previous machine was lacking in (which was the cause of my problem apparently)....that it couldn't fail to succeed. Wrong again it seems :blush: I really do wish my brain was better at this stuff :mad:

Regards, Dave.
 

Chelters

Active Member
NumptyDumpty, I wouldn't worry to much about all the memory babble above.
That Vaio has 8gb so it will be a 64 bit operating system, windows 8 by the looks of things and it's got a great processor. I run Vegas movie studio on a 64 bit system with no problems, never runs out of memory.
The trick is not to have any other stuff running at the same time when editing/rendering.

Personally I'd use your old laptop for internet and all the usual stuff and keep the new one for video only, never have it connected to the net, don't bother with anti-virus/firewalls/updates etc. I get the feeling this will be one step beyond, but my video editing machine (a desktop, hidden in the wardrobe!) was wiped by myself and a fresh install of the OS was applied with none of the manufacturers bloat added. Then I put the Video software on.
 

numptydumpty

Active Member
Hi Chelters,

It is windows 8....but is that significant? My son in law doesn't like the new Windows 8, so intends to replace that with the older W's 7 (I think he resists change...getting as bad as me :D) Will that adversely affect anything, all else being OK?

Cheers, Dave.
 
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Chelters

Active Member
I've no experience of win 8.
Give it a go, if you can't get on with it let the son-in-law loose but only if he has access to 64 bit win 7 :)
 

numptydumpty

Active Member
Hi Chelters,

I left my new laptop with the son in law last evening when I got back from the shops, for him to have a play with, and he has now decided he rather likes Windows 8 (as I had hoped :D) so now I don't need to bother buying a fresh copy of 7, as he can happily work with 8!

So, if the new machine does cope OK, all will be well. I will then use the money saved by not needing a W's 7 copy to buy a Western Digital USB 3.0, 2TB My Book ext. hard drive, to duplicate the holiday vids that (I hope) will be stored on my Iomega.

Can it be possible that I may be getting there at last? My fingers are crossed so tight it hurts....pleeeeese no judders :D

Cheers, Dave.
 

numptydumpty

Active Member
Hi Bob....the plot thickens mate. My son in law and daughter came round, with my laptop and his hard drive, and we all gathered round for the grand showing of the judder free vids....disaster...the judder was there, exactly the same as before :eek: Now for the weird bit...in desperation my s in l decided to try various other things, including trying to play stuff from his hard drive on my TV...which didn't work. Although he can play straight from his standard (non media player HDD) on his TV, it wouldn't play direct on mine (different software on the TV's I guess?). So...we transferred some stuff from his Ext. hard drive onto mine....and guess what? Everything, even DVD stuff he had from way back...which all plays perfectly on his TV from his hard drive at his house...had judders in it when run via my Iomega media players hard drive on my TV :confused: We tried donloading the latest firmware updates from the Iomega site, no improvement! (details of the specs of my Iomega and TV are on page one)

As soon as he is free again, we are going to look into it further. He is absolutely certain that it is my Iomega that is at fault, and has been all along. I certainly hope it is, but I am at the stage now where guessing no longer does it for me. I want concrete proof, and a judder free showing of my vids through a viable storage device, before I will believe anything I am told. Having read all the horror stories on the reviews on the Amazon site, about virtually every external hard drive on the market, I am terrified that even if it proves to be my Iomega at fault, there is every chance that anything I buy to replace it will fail sooner or later! Gawd help me.

Once again, we shall see :rolleyes:
 
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Gramuk

Active Member
What a nightmare you're having..
All I can say from my point is that I have exactly the same TV as you so that's a starting point - and am for several years now using a Synology Diskstation for all of my network DLNA storage etc. and it works flawlessly with every kind of media I store on it. I have it connected to a router along with my editing PC and TV and many other bits of kit so any PC or device in the house has access to it. (also remotely so my distant relatives can stream video, photo's and music!). Also I have the Panasonic X900 camera and so everything I record these days is full 50p HD and edited in Sony Media studio on the PC and then archived onto the Diskstation in full 50p. Just wanted to let you know as I had spent quite some time researching what would work as a "package" as I bought most of the kit at the same time when I went to HD. Guess as always - DYOR but from my experience the Synology is an awesome piece of kit. The model I'm using is an older DS211J (2011 model). Advantage is that it has 2 Hard Disk drives set up as a RAID array and so if one Hdd dies then I don't lose any of this important data. (I hope). Also it has an external USB hard drive directly connected to it to backup each week all my importent videos (not that Im terrified of losing anything !! lol).
Anyway - good luck with your endeavours - don't give up hope as there is some good kit out there. I'd recommend you (or your son in law) take a look at NAS (Network Attached Storage) drives (and in particular the Synology range) as storage as most have great media player capability and huge safe storage capability.
Good luck
Graeme
 

numptydumpty

Active Member
Hi Graeme,

Many thanks for your reply....but it is a bit cruel :D I have only just learned a few terms from my new Martian language phrase book, and you come along talking in Venusian :laugh:

Seriously though, considering your TV and Camcorder are the same as mine, and you capture footage using the same format (50p) then your storage and and editing software combination seem to be the missing link! I looked on the net, and the prices are a bit daunting, but if they work, it must be the way to go. My only concern is whether my son in law can cope (or will want me hassling him again) with yet another branch/type of technology, when all this is just a self taught hobby for him in reality. Is there step by step set-up instructions and support for idiots....if I have to try this myself?

I see the Synology DiskStation you use is actually an empty box with it's own software (in my language :D) which requires you to choose and buy two internal hard drives to fit into it....or buy one with them ready fitted. I looked at a few of their models, and a mid priced one on Amazon was the DS212J 2TB, which comes with 2x1TB drives already fitted at £280 ish...does that sound about right, choice and price wise? (just pricing, not buying yet!!!) If I understand you right, I would then need a router to connect it all up to the TV...then providing it is all set up right, (another Everest to climb :laugh:) transferring my camcorder footage onto that, then viewing that on the TV should be a doddle?

I currently have Virgin media for my broadband, TV and phone...would the router supplied by Virgin that this set-up uses be able to this job as well? If not, I have another router somewhere that I used with my previous broad band set-up before the Virgin era...would that do? Then again, can you have two different routers running at the same time, without one interfering with the other? (I know I SHOULD know all that...but I don't :blush:)...And...I assume you can operate the synology unit as a media player like the Iomega, with a remote, to play my footage...and don't need a PC in the loop all the time? Also, if one of the two incorporated 1TB drives is enough to hold all my video...can I use the other drive in the box to copy it to, so both have the same data on them, in case one dies?

Finally....what exactly is the /50p tag (I know the p is progressive) on the end of the format that our camcorders use, as in 1920 x 1080/50p ? What is that extra '/50' on the end? I have been told that my problem probably stems from the fact that my Iomega doesn't support that exact format. Although it claims on the box to support full HD up to 1080p, when I go into 'Iomega support' on the web, it mentions AVCHD (amongst a lot of others of course), then mentions that through HDMI it supports 480p, 576p, 720p 50 Hz, 720p 60 Hz, 1080i 50 Hz, 1080i 60 Hz, 1080p50 Hz, 1080p60 Hz.

So...that exact 1080/50p bit is not there, and no doubt 1080p50Hz is something entirely different?...is that the problem?

Sincere apologies for this mass of questions, but...I am desperately trying to get my head round where exactly it's all going wrong, why it seems so close, but doesn't QUITE work perfectly :mad:

Cheers, Dave.
 
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Gramuk

Active Member
Dave, I know - sorry to throw more bits into the soup... Just a couple of pointers on some of your queries. Pricing you mention is about right but when I bought mine it was before the Tsunami's hit and so disk prices were very low - they've increased since. The Diskstation is a NAS (Network arrached storage unit) and is basically a self contained unit. It can only be accessed by a device on the network it is connected to. It connects via a network cable into my existing router (used to be a BT home hub but I changed recently to Netgear router). A little setup (which is quite easy following the install guides) and then the unit can be accessed by any other device on your network - PC, tablet, phone TV. It is effectively a web and media server. I have my TV connected to the network via network cable. So my basic connections are :- Connect PC to the router which supplies your internet. Also connect up the TV amd the NAS drive to the same router. My hose is fully network wired as I don't really like wireless... On the PC you will then have access to the NAS unit - effectively an external hard disk drive for storage. The way I use mine is to edit my video's on the PC and store the file into a video folder in the NAS drive. Then when I go to the TV I select VIERRA TOOLS and then at the right hand side of the bar which comes up on the TV I select Media Server. Then the TV shows everything connected to the network - the NAS drive shows up as DiskStation and also my PC is it's owered up - and when selecting the Diskstation I can then go to my video folder and click on a video I want to watch and it starts playing in glorious full HD as recorded. You can fast forward, pause etc. by the TV remote. I also store music - of course in a folder called Music - and so all of my media is in one place and available to any device on the network. I have 2x 2TB hard disk drives in the unit but the way it is set up is that they are kind of twinned.. in a RAID setup. The idea is that is that if one disk fails then the other disk still has all of the files on there - like a shadow copy. Only downside of this is that although I have 4Tb of storage - only 2Tb is ever available. It can be expensive to set up - buying the unit then the disks but once its done it really has been worth it as everything gets backed up to it and I know its safe. Kids have PC's, tablets, phones and smart TV's etc. so whatever media is stored on there they can acces it from anywhere they have an internet connection. Great for thier bedroom TV's as I've lots of kids movies and music albums copied on there too. I'm not sure about other media servers like the Iomega but this Synology only really has a power button and that's about it. You rely on the device connected to it to play movies etc. Be that a TV or PC etc. - and all movies are transferred over network cabling. It manages the full HD 50p spec too without any clitches at all.
Hope this makes some kind of sense... Before diving in and spending more money you should research other devices out there to be sure they fit your needs. I know other devices from Western Digital, Seagate etc. all seem to offer media players of some kind so it's a real minefield. Also take a look at any other manufacturers "forums" as often this is where you'll pick up both good and bad points of devices.
So - apologies again for thickening the soup and good luck.
Graeme
 

TheShadowman

Active Member
Hi Graeme

I am finding the information you give very useful. Can you tell me, please. I note that you have a Foxsat HDR, how do you connect that and the Synology to router at the same time? Would I still be able to use the BBC i-player via the Humax?

Thank you
 

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