Condolancies to PC Harpers family

Marv

Member
Anyone who's ever had dealings with the travelling community will well know that they have zero respect for anyone for the police and will do as they please without fear of arrest or action against them.

The attitude of these three men says it all and is of no surprise.
 

tickedon

Well-known Member
I can only hope that the Judge takes into consideration the fact these three clearly show no remorse for what they have done, and give them the maximum - life behind bars. They deserve nothing less.

We can perhaps also hope, given concerns over intimidation of the jury and other 'issues' during the trial, that there might be an appeal to try and convict on murder.
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
^ You raise an interesting point when it comes to visible remorse.
Should it have any bearing whatsoever on the punishment?

I struggle with this, but I feel perhaps it should be no, not really.
Anyone can pretend to be sorry when need must.
If person A and person B both commit the came crime, but one of them, thanks to being advised better, dresses a bit better for the day of the trial, and puts on a good act in the courtroom, a few tears and a box of andrex throw in for good measure.
I'm not convinced that should have any bearing on the punishment for whatever the offence is.

It was something that was mentioned years ago when it came to teenage/ish females.
A right nasty foul mouthed bitch on the streets.
However on the day of the trial, all done up with lovely hair a pretty dress, and acting like a princess in the hope of fooling the judge.

Hence, really don't feel any of this should have any bearing on it.
 

oakland

Active Member
That video was a tough watch...

How the officer driving the car managed to remain as calm and professional as he did under those distressing circumstances makes him a hero in my eyes.

I hope the judge takes into account the psycological effect this will have on this man (and obviously PC Harpers family) for the rest of his life when sentencing.

I think I will stop now before I say something that will get me an instant and permanent ban.
 

ufo550

Well-known Member
Hope the Judge sees that.

We can live in hope for a whole life tariff, but as has been said, doubt it will be.

I used to work with Pc Shaw (and I'm not saying that for any notoriety). He is a strong character, but I'm not sure how he will live with that night. If I was in his shoes, I don't how I would.

And there is also Pc Harpers wife and family, knowing the horrible way he met his death.

Then you see that video & pictures
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Justice?

I think not.


The judge told the court: "Sometimes death may be caused by an act of gross carelessness, sometimes it is very close to a case of murder in its seriousness. That is so, here.

He said the defendants' denials they did not know they were dragging anything behind the car were "clearly false" and he rejected the idea they had shown remorse.


She won't get one, but at least she tried.

 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
A 16 year prison sentence - so presumably out in about 8 years. On the face of it that seems totally inadequate given the nature of the crime.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Very close to a case of murder, with no remorse. And of a police officer.

As you say no way the main lad serves 16 years, nor the other two 13.

An absolute disgrace.
 

ufo550

Well-known Member
Very close to a case of murder, with no remorse. And of a police officer.

As you say no way the main lad serves 16 years, nor the other two 13.

An absolute disgrace.
Think that’s what the Judge view was.

I understand how important it is, if being a juror not to let your emotions get away with you. But some times, you can err on side of caution.
 

aVdub

Distinguished Member
The sad fact of life is that within a few months most will forget this and be venting their anger towards something new :(
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
Absolutely.

Sorry but I totally disagree with this.
If I go to school with someone. I decide to be say a nurse and my mate decides to be a police officer.
I do not agree my life should be considered less valuable than his, simply due to his decision to choose a different job.
I am uncomfortable with us just deciding one particular human is worth more than another based upon who their parents are, what job they decided to take or how much money they have.
We are born equal, and we all die equal. The bit in-between should be equal also.
Personally speaking, of course.
 

Autopilot

Distinguished Member
Sorry but I totally disagree with this.
If I go to school with someone. I decide to be say a nurse and my mate decides to be a police officer.
I do not agree my life should be considered less valuable than his, simply due to his decision to choose a different job.
I am uncomfortable with us just deciding one particular human is worth more than another based upon who their parents are, what job they decided to take or how much money they have.
We are born equal, and we all die equal. The bit in-between should be equal also.
Personally speaking, of course.
You are missing the point. No one is saying his life, as in Andrew Harper the person, was worth more than yours, or anyone who chooses to be a police officer. The point is that they killed a person and took away a police officer. It’s a direct attack on society and it’s ability to keep itself safe.
 

Axl

Distinguished Member
A 16 year prison sentence - so presumably out in about 8 years. On the face of it that seems totally inadequate given the nature of the crime.
He was given 24 years. His age and plea took it down to 16. He can apply for release no earlier than 10 yrs 8 mths. If that's denied he serves the full 16.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Sorry but I totally disagree with this.
If I go to school with someone. I decide to be say a nurse and my mate decides to be a police officer.
I do not agree my life should be considered less valuable than his, simply due to his decision to choose a different job.
I am uncomfortable with us just deciding one particular human is worth more than another based upon who their parents are, what job they decided to take or how much money they have.
We are born equal, and we all die equal. The bit in-between should be equal also.
Personally speaking, of course.
No need to apologise. I understand your point.

But the nature of this crime is truly heinous; from the callousness itself to the lack of remorse shown by the little scumbags.

And the fact there's a chance they could be out in 10 years (or even less for the other two) is disgusting. And shows other criminals that even killing a police officer doesn't mean you'll get a life sentence. Or even be charged with murder. So when a criminal is trying to evade the police in future, they may feel it's worth the chance to take extreme action in order to escape.

His widow must be absolutely distraught. Her life is ruined, and she has a life sentence of her own. How is that fair? (Not aiming that at you btw, just generally).
 
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hippo99

Distinguished Member
Sorry but I totally disagree with this.
If I go to school with someone. I decide to be say a nurse and my mate decides to be a police officer.
I do not agree my life should be considered less valuable than his, simply due to his decision to choose a different job.
I am uncomfortable with us just deciding one particular human is worth more than another based upon who their parents are, what job they decided to take or how much money they have.
We are born equal, and we all die equal. The bit in-between should be equal also.
Personally speaking, of course.
It’s not that their life is worth more than yours/mine, I think the argument for a life sentence for killing police (& emergency workers in general) is that they are putting their own lives on the line for (a better) society.
The least society can do for people who are taking a greater risk on behalf of US, is to have a stronger deterrent to at least try to reduce that risk for them.
 

Cocksure

Well-known Member
No need to apologise. I understand your point.

But the nature of this crime is truly heinous; from the callousness itself to the lack of remorse shown by the little scumbags.

And the fact there's a chance they could be out in 10 years (or even less for the other two) is disgusting. And shows other criminals that even killing a police officer doesn't mean you'll get a life sentence. Or even be charged with murder. So when a criminal is trying to evade the police in future, they may feel it's worth the chance to take extreme action in order to escape.

His widow must be absolutely distraught. Her life is ruined, and she has a life sentence of her own. How is that fair? (Not aiming that at you btw, just generally).
That is true of all murder/manslaughter crimes, someone life is always ruined and the person who is serving the crime can always be release early though I doubt it will happen in this case, 10 years from now people will still remember this killing.

The fact that they have shown a lack of remorse is shocking, but they have been sentenced accordingly, and people change in prison, the 10 years min may not seem much on the surface, but who here could willing do it? Besides they are only open to the possibility it is not automatic. Cases like this are not about revenge, they are about justice which has been done imo.

This was manslaughter not murder, the worst possible end of it, but there was no intent, yes they knew that they were causing him harm but that is different from aiming to kill ie pointing a gun and pulling a trigger.

As to it being an attack on society, sorry but I don't buy that argument, all killings can be an attack on society, the old man/woman who helps his neighbourhood by keeping it clean and free from rubbish value is no less or greater than a Police officer, as is the fireman who willing walks into a burning house to rescue someone etc. A life is a life regardless of job etc and should have no bearing in such things.

This case has been brought to court fast, will have had the full weight of the force and prosecution behind it because of who was killed, would a none police officer case have also moved so quickly and with such backing? Perhaps, perhaps not. I have no issue either way as justice has been done for whatever reason/motivation, but it's very wrong to say that no lesson has been given to criminals as a result of this crime.

Given the crime which I'm sure all can agree was truly shocking, this will always be a dangerous topic to discuss and the above is just a view, nothing more
 
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DemonAV

Distinguished Member
Hopefully they'll get regular kickings inside, if they're put with the general population that is?
 

Cocksure

Well-known Member
Hopefully they'll get regular kickings inside, if they're put with the general population that is?
From the general population I sadly suspect they will be viewed as hero's :(

However from the prison guards point of view...

Edit
I don't normally like long term isolation imprisonment, but in this case... 2 months of lockdown drove me up the wall, 10 years of it...
 

Tempest

Distinguished Member
Thanks for the interesting replies to my statement.
Perhaps it would be better if I reversed part of what I said?

"I don't think they should of got any less of a sentence for what they did, if the person did not chose to have a job as a police officer"

If they had killed a Nurse, Surgeon, Doctor, School Teacher, Checkout assistant, Mum at home, Child on their way home from school.

They should have gotten just as much of a punishment/sentence as all of those people are the same.
Humans, with parents, friends and family/children, and equally vile crime, which will hurt those around them just as much.

I'm fully aware this is not how our society works, and we do value people's lives differently based upon their Parents, Job, Money, Status.
It's hard (as a human myself!) not to fall into this trap of placing different values on different people's lives. But I consider that a flaw rather than a positive thing in human nature.
 

DemonAV

Distinguished Member
I'm guilty of the above and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I believe that someone who takes away the life of an on-duty police officer should face a mandatory life sentence because it is a crime against society as a whole to do so. In saying that I'm not saying that anyone else is a lesser human being. We have to have a degree of symbolic hierarchy in society for the benefit of all of us and the police should be deemed as firmly in the top of this hierarchy imo. The alternative is to live in a society of ever decreasing civility due to the lack of respect of authority, as we are seeing now.
 

Marv

Member
John Howell, who was PC Harper's MP, said he will ask the Attorney General whether the sentences are "unduly lenient" and, if so, whether they could be extended at the Court of Appeal.

Good.
 

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