Compact, modern alternative to a Paradigm PS1000 Subwoofer?

MK365

Active Member
That is music sub the B&W ASW610. Looking the specs alone the SVS should be way ahead. And also reading the 610XP measurements which is the same sub as you looking but with 500w amp you almost need two of them for the capability of the SB1000 Pro which has 5db edge all over and lower distortion below 30hz. 610XP made for small rooms / moderate listening levels as the distortion creeps quite a bit. Imagine the cheaper 200w version you looking, it doesn`t have the juice below 40hz even close to that.

BK XLS200 would be way cheaper and comes with high quality Peerless XXLS driver and 275w amp. The sad thing is you can`t try it first. Don´t know their returning policy. But seriously i wouldn´t but it for movie use cause i have owned similar size BK Gemini II.

Arendal 1961 1S would be winner at 700£ mark cause it competes with 900£ products (SB2000 Pro). Sadly it`s 100£ out of your budget. Is there any chance to save up for that? It`s narrow which helps to make it look quite small.

DIMENSIONS WITH RUBBER FEET 42.7H x 31.5W x 41.5D cm



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I agree with you on paper, it should be superior and exactly why it was my first choice before I even created this thread but in reality it has been a disappointment (at least for me).

Why would you not buy it for movie use?? I called BK today - they still sell the XLS200 but they are struggling to get the drivers and the man quoted me a lead time of end of September - October, there is no chance I can wait that long! They don't have any built units to buy either so worst case scenario is I wait that long for delivery and I'm not happy which would mean returning it (around £17 the bloke said which is reasonable) but its the thought that kills me.

The Ardendal looks awesome and I can afford it but I don't want to spend that much just yet. We are hoping this room in the next few years becomes a dedicated lounge/theatre at which point I will upgrade the amp and move from stereo to surround sound. This would also mean more space for a larger subwoofer or two in the corners (I am sold on the SVS PB2000 or equivalent) but that is still a few years away.

If I can get a couple of hundred quid back on the B&W after a few years, I'd be happy! Without vinyl wrapping a black sub, I think I am out of options unless I can find the patience to wait for the BK. I really do appreciate all your help and direction though!
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I agree with you on paper, it should be superior and exactly why it was my first choice before I even created this thread but in reality it has been a disappointment (at least for me).

Why would you not buy it for movie use?? I called BK today - they still sell the XLS200 but they are struggling to get the drivers and the man quoted me a lead time of end of September - October, there is no chance I can wait that long! They don't have any built units to buy either so worst case scenario is I wait that long for delivery and I'm not happy which would mean returning it (around £17 the bloke said which is reasonable) but its the thought that kills me.

The Ardendal looks awesome and I can afford it but I don't want to spend that much just yet. We are hoping this room in the next few years becomes a dedicated lounge/theatre at which point I will upgrade the amp and move from stereo to surround sound. This would also mean more space for a larger subwoofer or two in the corners (I am sold on the SVS PB2000 or equivalent) but that is still a few years away.

If I can get a couple of hundred quid back on the B&W after a few years, I'd be happy! Without vinyl wrapping a black sub, I think I am out of options unless I can find the patience to wait for the BK. I really do appreciate all your help and direction though!

Cause it`s overpriced and it`s B&W sub, not built by company that specializes in woofers. Although the build quality is good (cab), but the warranty and support worries me as i have seen many ASW and the PV1D amp failures and they not cheap. Sure if you keep it only few years then you are covered and sell it forward after that. Check the below review which has measurements on second page, B&W has only updated the finishes since these were introduced. Remember this is the XP version which has over twice the power (500w vs. 200w) so the you are buying will not be close to this. As i mentioned the XP model isn`t as good as SB1000 Pro performance wise and the 200w version is even further away so i`m really puzzled why the SVS didn`t sound at least as good. It digs deeper and it has lot more headroom with lower distortion all documented. 5year warranty and best support from all companies, 365day chat/email responses.




There would have been the REL HT 1205 too at 550£, but you would need to hide it somehow under white coffee table and "paint" the front grill to white. 😅

 

MK365

Active Member
Cause it`s overpriced and it`s B&W sub, not built by company that specializes in woofers. Although the build quality is good (cab), but the warranty and support worries me as i have seen many ASW and the PV1D amp failures and they not cheap. Sure if you keep it only few years then you are covered and sell it forward after that. Check the below review which has measurements on second page, B&W has only updated the finishes since these were introduced. Remember this is the XP version which has over twice the power (500w vs. 200w) so the you are buying will not be close to this. As i mentioned the XP model isn`t as good as SB1000 Pro performance wise and the 200w version is even further away so i`m really puzzled why the SVS didn`t sound at least as good. It digs deeper and it has lot more headroom with lower distortion all documented. 5year warranty and best support from all companies, 365day chat/email responses.




There would have been the REL HT 1205 too at 550£, but you would need to hide it somehow under white coffee table and "paint" the front grill to white. 😅


The amp failures do worry me, my system is on whenever the TV is on also when playing only music - I hope any potential failures would happen in the first 2 years where I have warranty, never a fan of expensive repairs bills haha! But yes, I think keep it for 2-3 years by which time (I hope!) I am ready to upgrade.

The XP version seems really overpriced, definitely pick SVS, Arundel or BK over that.

My only explanation is the unit was faulty but if it was, I assumed it would play no sound at all, as opposed to just sounding mediocre.

The Audiholics review only gave it a small rating but sadly I could relate to a lot of what was said in the review (limited space, decor, size, unobtrusive etc). The non XP demo unit I had felt like it dug fairly deep when tested with the LOTR intro but it didn't quite catch the deepest waves of bass I'm used to hearing which isn't ideal but I think I can live with the trade off.

The REL is £599 brand new from their website right now, it does pain me they don't do it in white as this or even the 1003 may have been perfect (although I am not a fan of the branding on their feet!). The black grille is perfect as my Evos have black grills, even though they are off most of the time; HT/1205 - 500 Watt Subwoofer | REL Acoustics

I've seen a few people vinyl wrap their gear but I don't want to go down this route in case it doesn't look perfect once done - the sub is clearly on display and hence why the aesthetics are also so important.

I think my plan of having it for a few years and then selling on to upgrade to a proper ported sub is what is best for me in my current situation :laugh:

Edit: I think the REL Tzero MKIII is £400 (vs £415 for the B&W), compact and available in white. How do the 2 compare?
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
The amp failures do worry me, my system is on whenever the TV is on also when playing only music - I hope any potential failures would happen in the first 2 years where I have warranty, never a fan of expensive repairs bills haha! But yes, I think keep it for 2-3 years by which time (I hope!) I am ready to upgrade.

The XP version seems really overpriced, definitely pick SVS, Arundel or BK over that.

My only explanation is the unit was faulty but if it was, I assumed it would play no sound at all, as opposed to just sounding mediocre.

The Audiholics review only gave it a small rating but sadly I could relate to a lot of what was said in the review (limited space, decor, size, unobtrusive etc). The non XP demo unit I had felt like it dug fairly deep when tested with the LOTR intro but it didn't quite catch the deepest waves of bass I'm used to hearing which isn't ideal but I think I can live with the trade off.

The REL is £599 brand new from their website right now, it does pain me they don't do it in white as this or even the 1003 may have been perfect (although I am not a fan of the branding on their feet!). The black grille is perfect as my Evos have black grills, even though they are off most of the time; HT/1205 - 500 Watt Subwoofer | REL Acoustics

I've seen a few people vinyl wrap their gear but I don't want to go down this route in case it doesn't look perfect once done - the sub is clearly on display and hence why the aesthetics are also so important.

I think my plan of having it for a few years and then selling on to upgrade to a proper ported sub is what is best for me in my current situation :laugh:

Edit: I think the REL Tzero MKIII is £400 (vs £415 for the B&W), compact and available in white. How do the 2 compare?

So sad man with the HT1205. Arendal at 700£ would be awesome and it could be used in new flat too. Members use it (x2) in dedicated cinema rooms it`s that good! My money would be on that if you could somehow save little bit more cause similar SVS costs 899£ and it was just in group test where it was picked best. So much good feedback for it and superb bang for buck ratio!

No no forget the T-Zero lol. Most of members here wouldn´t even call it a subwoofer. It has 6,5" driver same as in bookshelf speakers. It`s really for the smallest rooms / 2.1 small hifi systems.

Go cheap = buy twice.
 

password1

Distinguished Member
I'd like to pick your brains if I could please!

I was having a think about the BKs size and decided to make a cardboard box to the exact dimensions and put it where I'd want it and unfortunately it looks slightly ridiculous next to my Evo 4.3 - its just so disproportionate. I have nowhere else to house the sub so now I'm back to looking at alternatives again. I have returned the B&W and must confess we miss it! I can get one closer to around £415 - would you say that is a more realistic price point? I personally thought £400 is what its worth. The amp failures you mentioned are a bit of a worry but I will have a 2 year warranty.

I did also have a look at a BK XLS200-DF which would fit and on paper appears to be better than the B&W but not as pretty (also not sure its available to buy at the moment). Also an issue with demo'ing - the B&W we had for a week and were happy enough with sound, looks, size etc.

A few pictures attached of my cardboard BK for amusement.
Don't forget to factor in the possibility of adding a granite or other solid base and the spikes. I think a big white box would be disguisable as a fridge if you add a fake fridge handle, or maybe disguise it as a large heater if you add some fake vents and buttons.

How about the BK double gem in white? I believe it has the same amp as the platinum. It comes with a choice of black or white grilles.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Good call on Double Gem, i completely forgot it. The question is, is it too tall? It`s very narrow, but quite delicious looking in full white! Better performance over XLS200. Actually very similar to P12-300SB (410£) which has the 40x40x45 cabinet.

This also uses same amp as P12 and drivers from Gemini II so i would assume they can build these quite fast!



20200123_170142-jpg.1291432


20200706_140625_hdr-jpg.1329963
 
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MK365

Active Member
So sad man with the HT1205. Arendal at 700£ would be awesome and it could be used in new flat too. Members use it (x2) in dedicated cinema rooms it`s that good! My money would be on that if you could somehow save little bit more cause similar SVS costs 899£ and it was just in group test where it was picked best. So much good feedback for it and superb bang for buck ratio!

No no forget the T-Zero lol. Most of members here wouldn´t even call it a subwoofer. It has 6,5" driver same as in bookshelf speakers. It`s really for the smallest rooms / 2.1 small hifi systems.

Go cheap = buy twice.

Dude tell me about it, it does break me a bit but I am grateful the other half actually enjoys and misses having a sub we had! The Arendal is awesome but I measured it out for my sanity and it would still look a bit awkward next to my 4.3s - ideally if I am spending that much money, I want the bigger ported version as something I'd keep long term.

Hahaha, I will avoid the Tzero for sure then, I think my car probably has a bigger sub. Only asked because it fits the bill.

Don't forget to factor in the possibility of adding a granite or other solid base and the spikes. I think a big white box would be disguisable as a fridge if you add a fake fridge handle, or maybe disguise it as a large heater if you add some fake vents and buttons.

How about the BK double gem in white? I believe it has the same amp as the platinum. It comes with a choice of black or white grilles.

LOL that is some imagination, don't think my other half would approve!

Saw the double gem and its again too big although looks the part.

Wharfedale do subs. Why not go for a matching Wharfedale..

I found the Wharfedale SW10 which on paper looks similar to the B&W, my issue is there are no reviews online any decent information on it. Not sure if I can be bothered trialling yet another sub at home and potentially having to return it. Its also only £250: Wharfedale SW-10 Subwoofer

Good call on Double Gem, i completely forgot it. The question is, is it too tall? It`s very narrow, but quite delicious looking in full white! Better performance over XLS200. Actually very similar to P12-300SB (410£) which has the 40x40x45 cabinet.

This also uses same amp as P12 and drivers from Gemini II so i would assume they can build these quite fast!



20200123_170142-jpg.1291432


20200706_140625_hdr-jpg.1329963

Nice try on tempting me with the pictures but having measured it out, its too big yet again :(

I feel like there is a niche in the market for smaller, smarter subs since after all this (minus the BK due to lead times), the B&W is the only that fits the bill (maybe the SVS too but I won't go there again). Not sure if the Wharfedale SW10 is worth a punt or not.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I don´t think you will be happy going from larger ported cab to smaller sealed with same size driver. At least 12" sealed should be considered. But the frequency response is quite anemic for this:
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Would you be able to sell gloss black finish somehow for wife? This would have warranty still few years and clearly the 2000 range is different level.


Have you actually tried the sub in other locations close to seating area? Cause if it would work great there then perhaps you could consider something other than white finish if it´s less visible there?
 

MK365

Active Member
I don´t think you will be happy going from larger ported cab to smaller sealed with same size driver. At least 12" sealed should be considered. But the frequency response is quite anemic for this:

No I won't, totally agreed! I think I set my expectations too high wanting something smaller that would compare to a larger sub, regardless of price but I accept that.

The Wharfedale you attached is unfortunately too big hence why I picked the smaller SW10 :(

Would you be able to sell gloss black finish somehow for wife? This would have warranty still few years and clearly the 2000 range is different level.


Have you actually tried the sub in other locations close to seating area? Cause if it would work great there then perhaps you could consider something other than white finish if it´s less visible there?

That is a steal! The issue is that its sat next to the white Evos, I cant sell it to my self let alone the other half haha!

I didn't bother with other locations because they are all reserved for other furniture/stuff. We have a lounge/diner which I plan on being only a lounge - after that I'll have a lot more room for 5.1, bigger subs, placement etc etc.
 

MK365

Active Member
How about a bk xls200 in white?

The issue with this is a delivery date of September - October, I don't have the patience. They don't have any made I could try either.


This was shortlisted and then removed due to size again.


Awesome find, I'm reluctant to buy because there are literally no proper reviews of the unit and I've searched beyond the first few pages of Google! Could it be a little gem?
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
@MK365 even better deal here and in white:

Snap this away! The gloss white finish costs 999£ so this is quite great deal for powerfull sealed sub with phone app control and it´s very small too.

All the other mentioned subs are more or less toys for HT system if you are serious about this hobby i wouldn`t consider them. Probably good in room down to 30hz at best with the performance already suffering as they are near their limits there so not much output. However something like SB2000 Pro is totally different ball game which should hit decent depth with plenty of weight and the earlier models had decent chest slam (when pushed) which many liked.

I think @Jester1066 has two of those now. Before he had one BK P12-PR which you considered (too large).
 

password1

Distinguished Member
If you can stretch your budget by £175 over the 2000 pro above I would consider the 3000 micro. Lowest Ive seen is £825
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Or how about just get a cheap sub as a stop gap while the xls200 is being built..

It`s not really movie sub. -3db @ 35hz was measured. Ok for some very small rooms moderate level stuff. The question was to get something that doesn`t feel downgrade after the Paradigm ported sub. XLS200 will definitely not offer similar experience.
 

password1

Distinguished Member
Specs are not as impressive as the BK p12.but it's available in white and is a modern design. Currently reduced as it's replaced by the much more expensive Tx models.

You have nothing to lose if you don't like it..you can return it within the home trial period.

 

MK365

Active Member
View attachment 1553648

RS offer home trial and free delivery

Thanks for this, I did trawl through the RS website many times, either not happy with the power, looks or size :(

@MK365 even better deal here and in white:

Snap this away! The gloss white finish costs 999£ so this is quite great deal for powerfull sealed sub with phone app control and it´s very small too.

All the other mentioned subs are more or less toys for HT system if you are serious about this hobby i wouldn`t consider them. Probably good in room down to 30hz at best with the performance already suffering as they are near their limits there so not much output. However something like SB2000 Pro is totally different ball game which should hit decent depth with plenty of weight and the earlier models had decent chest slam (when pushed) which many liked.

I think @Jester1066 has two of those now. Before he had one BK P12-PR which you considered (too large).

This is a bloody good deal but......

If you can stretch your budget by £175 over the 2000 pro above I would consider the 3000 micro. Lowest Ive seen is £825

I looked at this too but it goes back to spending more for a larger sub, in the future.

Or how about just get a cheap sub as a stop gap while the xls200 is being built..

Specs are not as impressive as the BK p12.but it's available in white and is a modern design. Currently reduced as it's replaced by the much more expensive Tx models.

You have nothing to lose if you don't like it..you can return it within the home trial period.



Ultimately I was supposed to get a clearance/B grade B&W ASW610 for £415 but ended up with a brand new one for £430 so I am happy about that. Whilst it may not sound as good as some of the other suggestions, its the perfect combination of size, power, sound, looks and overall finish - it blends in so well with the Evo 4.3s (pictures attached). The matt finishes goes better than glossy white.

I really think it deserves more credit (at least at £430 and not £500/£530 like some other retailers) than it gets, its an awesome sub for its compact size and price point in my case. It doesn't do what the PS1000 did but its so much smaller and better looking. I feel it blends better with the Evos I have and this might owe to its sealed design giving that tighter bass than a ported sub would.

Thank you all for your help and suggestions, I will come back in a few years with a bigger budget and hopefully one of the corners of the room to accommodate something more beastly 😎

Edit: Found this too which I think is a steal but ultimately stuck to my guns (and budget!): B&W PV1D (White) Subwoofer
 

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Bossk128

Well-known Member
Glad to hear you've made a choice you're happy with OP. I've been following with interest as I'm tempted to upgrade my XLS200 Mk1 to the 300PR, but I'm looking also for performance vs form factor.

Although I can wait to save a larger budget, I can't justify the size of a Monolith, but do want more movie slam whilst maintaining the musicality of a sealed sub. I really should demo the 300PR to decide.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thanks for this, I did trawl through the RS website many times, either not happy with the power, looks or size :(



This is a bloody good deal but......



I looked at this too but it goes back to spending more for a larger sub, in the future.






Ultimately I was supposed to get a clearance/B grade B&W ASW610 for £415 but ended up with a brand new one for £430 so I am happy about that. Whilst it may not sound as good as some of the other suggestions, its the perfect combination of size, power, sound, looks and overall finish - it blends in so well with the Evo 4.3s (pictures attached). The matt finishes goes better than glossy white.

I really think it deserves more credit (at least at £430 and not £500/£530 like some other retailers) than it gets, its an awesome sub for its compact size and price point in my case. It doesn't do what the PS1000 did but its so much smaller and better looking. I feel it blends better with the Evos I have and this might owe to its sealed design giving that tighter bass than a ported sub would.

Thank you all for your help and suggestions, I will come back in a few years with a bigger budget and hopefully one of the corners of the room to accommodate something more beastly 😎

Edit: Found this too which I think is a steal but ultimately stuck to my guns (and budget!): B&W PV1D (White) Subwoofer

Fair enough, there just wasn`t any other options in that ££ range but at least you got it fairly cheap and still get at least ~200£ after few years i would believe. And yeah it looks nice.

I remember at least 3 members battling with some amp failures on PV1D. Super expensive, very small and not much output below 40hz. I wouldn´t pay 300£ for that. It`s lifestyle product. For 700£ as i already mentioned the Arendal 1961 would have wiped the floors with all options, shame you couldn´t save up but after couple years hopefully then can go with the boys (PB2000 Pro / PB3000 or Monoprice THX ranges) as you know now what kind of impact those big boxes will give if you looking more cinematic feel then still. :)

The REL T9i is more toward hifi systems due to small size/looks, it has similar passive radiator design to BK, but quite steep roll off from ~28hz so it would be like high tuned ported sub and not as much output so not at BKs level for movies. Example their own HT/1205 model would be much better option for purely HT and cheaper!
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Glad to hear you've made a choice you're happy with OP. I've been following with interest as I'm tempted to upgrade my XLS200 Mk1 to the 300PR, but I'm looking also for performance vs form factor.

Although I can wait to save a larger budget, I can't justify the size of a Monolith, but do want more movie slam whilst maintaining the musicality of a sealed sub. I really should demo the 300PR to decide.

Could you spend 600£, make an offer for this one if you accept white. It`s powerfull sealed sub that will be massive step up from the XLS200 for movies and for music cause you get more weight and depth. SVS has transferable warranty so you will be covered. As i mentioned this is 999£ new in shop.


If you have very large room or just room which opens to another spaces then it`s going to be trickier to fill that with one compact sealed woofer.
 

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