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Close call with Z3 what should I do

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by spickee, Jul 11, 2005.

  1. spickee

    spickee
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    Had a scary moment yesterday. Had the projector on for about half an hour then stupidly stood on the mains cable, I know should all be wired in and hidden away, but it isn't yet. Heard a fizz from the projector and all went dark. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Immediately tried to turn it on to get the fans running again, but it cam up with replace lamp. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Left it for two or three minutes and powered on, all seems ok.

    Question.

    Should I ring Sanyo and tell them the projector just turned off then I got this error, or will I be ok and not killed the bulb too much. Still in my 90 days so want to make the right decision.
     
  2. PJTX100

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    Accidentally switching off the power should not be a concern. Actually, switching it on again after only two mins is, if anything, potentially more damaging. Ideally you should leave 30-45mins cooling period if the power goes off unexpectedly eg power cut.

    But I think it will be OK, wouldn't fret...PJ :)
     
  3. MacReady

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    Sorry for hijacking your thread for a second Spickee but I have had a similar problem with my Z2 in that the power has been cut to it on a number of occasions over the last few weeks :eek:

    There is a lot of electrical work being done on our street at the moment which is making it very unreliable and on a few nights we have had the street lights go out and then come back on and all the power trips in everyones houses...not good if we are half way through watching a movie on the pj :mad:

    I know the sensible answer would be to not use it until they have finished the work but they cannot give a definite date (useless sods said it would take two weeks in the letter that was received by all residents...the letter that arrived THREE WEEKS after they had started the job...and that was two weeks ago !!!) but do I have a case to make some kind of claim against them for possible damge and reduced life time of the bulb?

    I have been leaving it off completely after any power cuts just in case :(
     
  4. spickee

    spickee
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    Having read a lot of the other threads on here I went with the switch it back on asap to get the fans running again to cool the bulb evenly rather than leaving it to it's own devices.

    Worth a call to Sanyo saying the thing just switched off or look at it as a learning exercise and install it permanently, know better for next time.
     
  5. spickee

    spickee
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    As a quickie to Cleric, might be worth investing in a small ups, would cure the problem at least you would be able to shut it down when the power goes out. Small ones run at about £30-50, a small investment to save a £200+ bulb.
     
  6. MacReady

    MacReady
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    That is not a bad idea at all...I had not thought of that! Thanks Spickee
     
  7. Supersonic

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    Has anyone looked into this? I saw a small UPS at Curry's (after reading Cooper's post in the Hardware News forum about their sale price). The one in question is here:

    http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE325-UK

    I'm looking into whether it's beefy enough for the pj on its own and I might even try to get one that would do my whole receiver / dvd player / pj setup. All depends on cost but the one above seems fine at £29.99 so might just get it anyway!
     
  8. Supersonic

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    Have just discovered that my Z3 consumes 210W in full mode - so I guess I do need a more powerful UPS after all. Never mind - even if it's as much as £60-70 it's worth it to save a costly bulb and you get power smoothing into the bargain, which might possibly aid picture quality.
     
  9. spikerules

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    I also thought about getting something like that! www.rlsupplies.co.uk also sell them (was at the shop front today when I saw one) and was wondering whether it will be powerful enough to run all my tv equipment and PJ?
     
  10. Supersonic

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    Am looking at dabs right now and an 800VA one is £97 but doesn't say how long you get at what wattage consumption. More research needed!
     
  11. spikerules

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  12. cyberheater

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    I'm sure switching the projector back on straight away after pulling the plug is going to be a lot more stressfull for the bulb then leaving it to cool down for a hour.

    If the PJ is on and the power suddenly goes then the bulb has to cope with no cooling. Any damage to the bulb will occur right at this point as the bulb glass is trying to cope with the heat. But the benefit is that the bulb will cool down slowly thereby reducing the chance of thermal shock.

    Switching it straight back on again means that your are performing a hot strike on a already thermally stress bulb. The bulb is trying it's best to cope with the heat and you've just added a load more energy into the device and that's got to be a bad thing.

    I really feel I'm right about this. Anyone up for the debate...
     
  13. PJTX100

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    As I said the same thing, albeit much abbreviated, in post #2 of this thread - I'd tend to agree...PJ :)
     
  14. spickee

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    Small update, to this, went out and bought a small UPS, £20 from Aria, and have just bought a powersurge strip from Homebase with £1000 equipment cover on it.

    Needless to say I have now plumbed the PJ power cables in properly so that I can't be a lemon again. Must say I think the PJ may be a bit brighter and smoother with the UPS in line with it.
     
  15. summat

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    No need, we're talking about a Sanyo Projector. Read the FAQ (point 41) on Sanyo's website, quoted here...

    "What causes lamp failure?
    Although it is hoped that a projector lamp will continue to operate satisfactorily throughout its anticipated working life, it has to be accepted that failure may occur before that anticipated time has elapsed. General Failure: The lamp in a projector is categorised as a consumable item, and even with proper use and maintenance a small proportion of lamps may fail well before their expected life span has elapsed. Neither the life expectancy nor the performance of a lamp can be guaranteed, and the duration of its useful operation will depend to a large extent on the conditions under which it operates. Usage Failure: As a projector lamp ages, the ends of the two electrodes within the strike chamber cavity gradually erode and the gap between them slowly increases. Erosion of these electrodes will occur every time the lamp is started and eventually, a point is reached at which the Ballast Power Unit can no longer supply the amount of current demanded by the lamp in order to strike and maintain the arc between the electrode tips. It is at this stage that performance deteriorates, with the light output falling off , the lamp starting to flicker at switch on or going out soon after strike up, or even failing to come on at all. Temperature Failure: Two factors that always result in high lamp glass temperatures are the non-adherence to correct power down procedures, and blocked or partially blocked air filters. It is essential that the projector be powered down properly after use in order to allow the cooling fans to reduce the lamp temperature sufficiently. The hottest part of a working lamp is the strike stem containing the two electrodes, and if the airflow over the lamp is in any way restricted by blocked filters, temperatures around the strike chamber will rise sufficiently to soften the glass. The usual consequence of this is that the pressurised strike chamber balloons outwards at its weakest point, producing a bulge or swelling in the stem. The stem itself is pulled off axis as a result, effectively moving the strike area away from the focal point of the reflector. Elevated temperatures can also generate microcracks in the stem, allowing the ingress of air that is then burned by the heat from the lamp arc, usually leaving black oxide deposits on the internal surfaces of the chamber walls as well as on the strike electrodes. The microcracks grow rapidly, and after a very short time the integrity of the structure is compromised and the stem shatters. Any mains voltage interruption or power cut, however momentary, will produce similar results to those outlined above. "

    What can I say, I've simply read the MANUFACTURER'S statement, and invested in UPS (Belkin 425W, I think), enough to allow the PJ to be powered down properly.
     
  16. Troon

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    :rolleyes:

    I doubt it. Most cheap UPSs feed the mains straight through until it cuts out. Get a multimeter and ***carefully*** measure the AC output voltage versus the mains supply. Don't die doing this: and don't come crying to me if you do.

    Smoother?!
     
  17. Maff et1

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    Or have a look at the manual and see if it claims to be line interactive/conditioning.

    And when buying a UPS, always try to find out how easily available the batteries are (and be prepared for a shock at the price).
     
  18. Supersonic

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    Cyberheater - agree with you, (which is why I want to get a UPS of course)

    Troon - yeah, I've noticed that the cheaper UPSs don't seem to come with Auto Voltage Regulation. I already have a couple of surge protectors (Belkin Surgemaster IIs) and they both neatly cut out the sounds I was hearing through my hi-fi and TV, of the fridge switching on and off and (original reason for getting them) the boiler firing up. So I guess they are doing something prior to feeding the supply onward - but I wouldn't know exactly what.

    As for my search for a UPS for my pj, I'm going to go for one with AVR or its equivalent. I'm also seriously tempted to get another similar but beefier one to put between the supply and my AV kit. My problem is working out what the right max. "VA" or "Ouput Wattage" needs to be to cater for a Denon 2805 in full flight, and the DVD / CD player. I looked at the manual and it said 5.6 (IIRC) Amps. Am not an electrician so I don't know what the correlation is between watts and amps!

    Any suggestions? My other option is to e-mail APC (for example) and ask them to recommend one.
     
  19. explicitlyrics

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    Keep an eye out, every now and again ebuyer.com do UPSs at excellent prices. I picked up a 1200VA UPS for £46.99 inc P+P. It works like a charm and has a very large beep so anybody near it knows the power has died, that is something worth checking!
     
  20. Maff et1

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  21. spickee

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    I know a cheap UPS isn't the best solution but better than nothing, and with a surge protector inline with it, should offer an affordable level of protection, the fact the surge strip has got £1000 of connected equipment insurance takes the worry away.

    Thinking about UPSing the audio kit, this is a bit iffy, what if you're in the middle of a film, all guns blazing, power goes out, everything is fine because you can't hear the ups alarm, suddenly, pop everything goes out having finished your battery off. I can see the sense surge protecting it but UPSing could be a bit dangerous.
     
  22. Supersonic

    Supersonic
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    In the event of a power cut, if the UPS isn't up to the job, it'll simply drain down really quickly then the power's gone and you're in the same boat as if you'd never bought it. The fans on my Z3 run for roughly 3 minutes when it's been on for a while, which means, at 210W (300VA), a 500VA UPS would be needed to be safe, according to the calculations in Maff et1's post and APC's website.

    Good point re. the audio - what I want to do is filter the mains and avoid the 'pop' you get when speakers are powered on or off at volume. Wonder if there's another device that could do that...
     
  23. summat

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    Bah, (thinks back for 20 years), nope, I think there's confusion between the conversion between VA and Amps.

    Basically, VA = V x A (or VA = V x I, using correct nomenclature)

    Power, W = V x A x power-factor, which for a resistive load (pf=1) is the same as VA.

    Where you might be getting confused is that the measure of power (or VA) for an AC sinusoidal wave, you take the rms value of the peak AC voltage. Not many people realise that 240vAC is actually 340v peak-to-peak. RMS of a sinusoidal waveform is effectively 1/root-2, or 0.7071, hence the appearance of that (or 0.7) in the conversion; but if you use 240vAC (as a RMS figure), then power = 240 x I x power-factor, and VA = 240 x I. Again, for a pf=1, VA = Watts.

    Regarding power-factor; difficult to guess with a modern switched mode PSU, but any decent design will be aiming to avoid the pf straying too far from unity (1).

    Actually, just read the web-site; I think the 0.7 is just a safety-net to accomodate a non-unity pf in the PSU design, and supports a phase shift of 45 degrees between voltage and current. Use this figure as a rule-of-thumb, nothing more.
     
  24. Maff et1

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    Surely for a rule of thumb to work you shouldn't need anything more? You use it to work out what you need then buy the next model up. You should never buy a UPS that is just enough for what I need in the right conditions, as it's function is to work in a variety of wrong conditions.

    I'll admit to cheating, I simply found a company that sells UPS's and followed their 'how to work out the size' guide.

    And to prove that I'm a pickly little git who can't take perfectly valid critisism, isn't it 230v now?
     
  25. spickee

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    If the UPS gives me anything more than immediate shutdown on the PJ I'm happy, even a chance to turn the lamp off and leave the fans running for about a minute or so is sufficient, anything to save the bulb as much as possible. Ideally I'd have bought a big old UPS and not worried, but I wanted something small that could be hidden away and was cheap.

    Any protection is better than no protection and the cost was about 2% the cost of the projector, so I was happy.
     
  26. summat

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    Only as far as the rated tolerance goes, something like 230 +10%/-6%, whereas the transformer tappings are unlikely to have changed; therefore you're still actually on a 240v tap. It's all about snake-oil and standardisation :)
     
  27. summat

    summat
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    Can I just use this opportunity to agree, whole-heartedly, with your reply

    (except in my case, more like 6%)
     
  28. nigelbb

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    Surely when you switch off the lamp & just the fans are running the PJ won't draw anything like that amount?
     
  29. summat

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    Indeed you're quite correct. It is important to find a UPS that is rated sufficiently (obviously), and the 0.7 rule of thumb above is probably a good way of calculating a safe rating; but once the lamp's out then you're probably only talking a few watts. Under that load, the UPS will supply for a considerable time (full load rating often has a supply time of only 10-15 minutes - even that's enough for this application with the PJ switched on).

    (It's then just the Sky box and the DVD recorder that'd suck mine dry :) )
     
  30. Supersonic

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    Thinking out loud:

    Scenario 1:
    Power cut - all goes dark and silent except for pj and UPS beeping kicks in
    !!! Quick quick where's the PJ remote? ... ... ... ...
    15 seconds to find remote and turn pj off
    UPS powers pj fans fine until it turns itself off

    Scenario 2:
    Power cut - all goes dark and silent except for pj and UPS beeping kicks in
    !!! Quick quick where's the PJ remote - Oh! The power's back on again.

    Scenario 3:
    Power cut etc. etc.
    !!! Quick etc.
    Oh $h!t it's been tidied away (beep beep beep beep)
    "Where's the pj remote darling?!" (beep beep beep beep)
    "It's not there!" (beep beep beep beep)
    "Grey" (beep beep beep beep)
    "I know they're all grey!!!" (beep beep beep beep)
    "Well I didn't ask you to tidy!!" (beep beep beep beep)
    "YES, I'll FIND YOU A CANDLE IN MINUTE - WHERE'S THAT REMOTE??!" (beep beep beep beep beep beep beep)
    "I think I've got it" -PLINK-...


    After serious reflection I reckon I'll go for some considerable overkill on the UPS capacity.
     

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