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Cleanest internal signal path?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Gary Lightfoot, Jul 18, 2005.

  1. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    I've always thought the Sony G90 was the pinnacle of CRT, but I've just read some info that suggests the Marquee LC9500 may have a cleaner signal path that is less processed than the G90. Is this visible in the image quality between the two?

    What does the Sony do that the Marquee doesn't? I believe the Sony has comparitively less low level detail (from what I've read) and some attribute that more to the ANSI contrast because the G90 is quite bright, rather than it's processing. Anyone got any experience of the two to justify the comments?

    How much do LC9500s cost compared to the G90? Is one more readily available compared to the other?

    Gary.
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    G90's not made anymore....haven't been for over 3 years.....last stock bought by MrFu over in USA. Marquee's still going strong.

    I'd think it'd be hard to attribute image quality preference of one device over another down to how the circuits inside are designed and how the signal is routed and processed within. I'd expect quality of set up to have a more serious affect at this level. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Still be interestng to hear some technical views on this.

    Go to AVS and do a search for posts by Chris Stephens. Chris loved modding Marquee's because they were so simple and elegant in their design. I'm sure he posted some interesting stuff about what he got up to inside them. I also see that Ken Hotte is now starting a thread about how complicated G90's are and how he wants to rip one to bits to mod.

    Gordon
     
  3. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    Don't the more recent Sony PJs have digital video processing along the lines of their TV sets - DRC-MF and that sort of thing? Before everyone jumps in reply, yes, I know there is a great deal of processing that goes on, but for proper adjustment and control, not to try to improve on a poor feed.

    I always thought that the TVs that had the best pictures were the ones that had the least video processing, and the 100Hz sets were usually the worst offenders. One of the attractions of a good PJ was that it was just a wide open window - very much a case of rubbish in - rubbish out, but it was up to you to ensure the source was good.

    I really like natural, unmolested pictures, and I can feel another audio analogy coming on. Fidelity is always enhance by the minimum of signal processing - even digital. The less amplification, filtering, switching, equalising, anything, the better and more transparent will be the output.

    Looks like I shan't be buying a G70, then!

    Nick
     
  4. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Gordon,

    Thanks for the info.

    It was Kens thread or one similar (that's where I got the quote from) that made me ask the question here, just to see if it had been notced by anyone else. He's a quirky character but I always enjoy his threads as he appears to be such a knowledgable guy. I wonder if the 3% he says he gets from the yoke mod is really visible or measurable though. Should be interesting to see what happens either way.

    I would imagine that as you rightly say, setting up a G90 badly could produce a worse image than a correctly set up G70 for instance, so we probably shouldn't discount anything on the account of the processing - especialy as it doesn't seem to be considered an issue. I think I saw a G70 going for around £1500 which seems a great price, but how does that compare to the 90 and how much do they go for second hand now? I seem to remember seeing new or as new G90s being advertised for around $31,000 in a US magazine, but wonder what kind of prices they go for over here.

    Hi Nick,

    The digital processing of modern TVs does seem to produce a worse image at times and I've never been a fan of 100hz tvs. Conversly, the DVI output from a PC or HDMI output of some DVD players produces a lot cleaner image than the analogue equivalent, so it would seem that it's all down to the application of the processing.

    Gary.
     
  5. JimmytheSaint

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    Gary, don't believe everything you read....especially from the likes of the 'self taught' individuals at AVS. I must admit, I'm kinda tired of this ******** :thumbsdow You obviously forgot to mention the gentleman goes onto say that he's swapping his 9500 for a 9501LC fully modded by Mike Parker and that then it would 'possibly better' a G90.
    Nice of you to start another interesting thread :rolleyes:

    Don't bother asking others for their opinion and go see each projector for yourself. I know you've seen the Marquee and you're welcome to see my G90, but in future, please do me a favour and source some better material, if you must.

    Yas
     
  6. JimmytheSaint

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    Hi Nick, although the Sony's do have various noise reduction circuits, DRC-MF etc, they are optional in the menu on most Sony products, including their PJs.

    The Sony G70 is an awesome projector and recently there have been many fine examples selling for peanuts!! It is FAR better than it's 8' rivals (except NEC hi-res, Barco Onyx), cheaper and colour corrected out of the box.
    You shouldn't write it off without seeing it in action first, honestly.

    Regards

    Yas
     
  7. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Jimmy,

    I don't believe everything I read - that's why I ask for other first hand opinions like I'm doing here or I go and see for myself. :)

    I did ask you a direct question in the thread that is now closed, but you didn't seem to answer that either for some reason. This was a genuine question so I don't understand the vitriol.

    believe me when I say I have an honest interest - I didn't drive for an hour and a half through central London to see Godfathers set-up for the fun of it you know (many thanks Henry). Plus I've another in the pipe-line and I'm hoping to get up to see James and a totaly gob-smacking image that will leave my jaw on the floor (of that there is no doubt).

    Where abouts are you Jimmy? I'd love to see a G90.

    Gary.
     
  8. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
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    Gary, I'm not far from Richmond, Surrey, so you are welcome to PM me anytime and I'll gladly give you a demo.
    James is a pro and his Marquee is setup to perfection, I can't pretend to compete, but with all projectors they have their ups and downs and so it is with the 9500 and the G90.

    The vitriol ;) was more in regard to the very recent spate of 'heresay' about the Sony G90, from electrolyte caps to lenses etc and the meteoric rise of an individual who sells his products (i.e NOT Sony, Barco etc) thanks to said forum and his respective disciples (one of whom you quoted, who, by the way, has himself become a reseller! How very professional!) :D
    Like I said, 'Don't believe everything you read, go see for yourself.' It's the only way to be sure!

    Regards

    Yas
     
  9. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    You have a PM :hiya:
     
  10. crteaman

    crteaman
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    Hmmm most interesting and certainly a long and tricky one to answer as there are many layers to this new thread however here goes.....

    and in no certain order, you both take a different but interesting stance on this one, Gary with his eagerness to seek out all knowledge and Yas with his just go look and dont believe all that the guy's accross the pond tell you, how correct you both are.

    Yas, it pains me to see the guy's on this forum rattle off quotes machine gun style from avs just because they have read it, funny how the written word so easily gets taken as 'Gospel and if its written by an American well thats it, it must be the truth!

    As a few of you may know I have been to the states on around fifteen occassions , and have stayed many a time, having myself sought out some of these guys, simply because they do what I do would seem a perfectly normal thing to do.

    How keen I was to find other individuals such as myself and boy oh boy how bad some of them turned out to be, one (all will remain unamed) who was considered a barco guru and was known the globe over, asked me to bring several brand new tubes I had for an 801s over to the states with me, upon my arrival he asked, "james these will fit an 808 wont they?".
    For those that know crt's well enough then you can imagine how dumbfounded I was, for the unintiated its a little like saying can I put a bmw engine in a mondeo.

    I have many, many stories such as this but wont bore you with them, I have by no means met all of the so called good guy's, but of those I have spoken with, only one has/had the same level of enthusiasm as I and that's Chris stephens, no doubt there are others out there, but there is another who gets mentioned often and I shall say no more.

    I am only prepared to quantify anyone I have first hand Knowledge of, and have either spoken with, met and discussed crt in detail with, not forgetting Henry's (crt projectors) skills either he is the great uncle bulgeria over many other wombles when it comes to fixing and discussing crt.

    So to Gary, as Gordon and Yas have both said there are many facets of a crt and its layout that can add or detract to its overall performance, so whats all this short signal path, well yes the Marquee does indeed have an incredibly short signal path, and yes the G series have an incredibly long one.

    Rather than use the oft quoted water and hose pipe lets use one of my own; think of yourself driving along a flat even dead straight road Gary,pushing down on the throttle, and think of what distance you cover in a set period of time, thats the Marquee.
    Now think of the same journey but this time on a twisty,undulating 'b' road over the same given set period, thats the G-series.

    If we change this car/road analogy to the flow of electrons then their signal path is a short and simple one, but with the G-series its a wonder they ever make it, as yoda would put it "hmmm exhausted they must be"

    So this means the G70/90 is a poor crt eh? not on your nelly far from it, superbly built units, very reliable, good bandwidth (to aid in the flow of information) etc, now low level detail has nothing to do with the G90's high ANSI contrast, sony always went for a smoother look to their crt's than some other brands, this is no different to saying some prefer a vauxhall and others a ford.

    The G90 can achieve a higher light output than its rivals, but remember most of these units are great, and its splitting hairs to talk of them all in this same post,do remember as I have said before, if you take two 5 litre engines (two types of 9" tube) both turbo charged, yet one produces 250 hp and the other 350hp ask yourself why? yes one his running a higher boost pressure (yes,yes the engineer in me alway's comes out) and will not last as long.

    Stick colour filters on a G90 and its ansi goes down (a bit) but still has more than enough to make the 'yanks' want to crash a satellite into it :D

    The G70 is still a great crt and a force to be reckoned with, remember its colour filtered and liquid coupled, again super reliable and IMHO the G series are just about the best looking (outwardly) units out there.

    Thet have their negatives of course but dont they all, nothing is perfect, the non ultra 9500 has a flaw two, one of which i was amazed that not one of you who attended the event spotted, c'mon guy's only those who attended did you see it then??? ;)

    The G90 for example along with its smaller brother and its forrunner are incredibly noisy compared to other units, but because of their extreme gun angle they are ideal for floor mount in a cabinet, which can solve this.

    As said Gary come and have a look at my unit by all means, in the meantime I am not sure who has made you this mystical offer but whoa wait a minute i may have sussed it, could it be someone who wants to come visit me and has offered for me to visit him soon??? :cool:

    more sometime soon.

    james
     
  11. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Thanks for taking the time to reply james. :)

    Gary.
     
  12. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    James: I have to agree about some of these folk over at AVS. When you go to USA to CEDIA etc and meet some of these guys it is apparent they are pretty clueless. I also agree that Chris Stephens isn't. He's a nutter and a funny guy. The first person I ever met who described a scene I played him from The Magnificent Seven as "Gnarly".....still couldn't get his Terranex to make it look decent though...hahahaha....but the HD stuff he played on his nutter modded Marquee was a bit serious!

    Gordon
     
  13. Alaric

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    'Gospel and if its written by an American well thats it, it must be the truth!

    Ekk....I'd have said the reverse...particularly if they are called George :D

    The AVS forums are great for info, and i'm sure there are some people out there that are very knowledgeable, but as with anything its always your own research that you belive the most as you see the points that are relivant to yourself. They also have a completely different culture and what may be ideal for a huge american install, might not be as good for a smaller british one.....Bigger after all is better over there and quality tends to rule here.

    Intresting thread though, and one day i may make it up to the stratosphere where these things may make a difference.

    Cya,
    Lee
     
  14. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    Ooops. Looks like the intentional irony fell flat on it's face because I mis-typed G70 instead of G90.

    Yeah, I've worked with lots of Americans. Some of them are great, but most just talk the talk.

    Dozey Nick
     
  15. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
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    James, Gordon, I have nothing against the folks on the AVS forums and admire the work MP (for one) is doing, however, as you both pointed out, there are many who just sprout rubbish and there are no experts correcting them. The statements Gary was referring to just irked me, on the basis the guy has ZERO experience with Sonys and I remember the posts he made asking help on the basics of Marquee setup. Now he's a reseller and expert!

    Gary, tried to PM you back, but your box is full!
    Hopefully, this time you can bring your Optoma over for a side-by-side comparison and my kids always love to see a good rainbow! :D

    Regards

    Yas :)
     
  16. Godfather

    Godfather
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    Hi Yas,

    I would love to see your G90 too. Would you mind if I dropped in when Gary visits?

    Henry
     
  17. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Yas,

    Sorry about that - inbox is less full now. :)

    I didn't intend to irk anyone - apologies if that's the way it came over. The only reason I asked here was because I've never heard anything like that said about the G90 (only good things) so found it hard to believe. I figured James or others like yourself could easily put it to rest though. If I'd believed it, I wouldn't have asked the question in the first place would I! :)

    Art Sonneborn has 2 stacked G90s as some of you probably know, and he seems to have a quest for ultimate quality, so if there was something he personaly felt was better than the G90 he'd have two of those instead.

    I might just bring the Optoma over, as a 'side by side' comparison would be very interesting. It would mean doing some dismantling etc but could be done. :)

    I could swap them over and you might not notice for a few days until you came to clean it.:rotfl:

    You and/or your family susceptible to rainbows then?

    Gary.
     
  18. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
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    Hi Gary

    I am indeed cursed when watching dlps, though I have only seen about 10 examples, so I cannot comment on your Optoma. My son sees them, but my wife & daughter do not :confused: Perhaps dlps are just for the ladies ;) I have seen the SXRD technology (Qualia) and look forward to seeing the HD2K on my next trip to the States. In my eyes, these technologies are the closest to providing vivid HD images that can rival CRT PJs. However, DLPs certainly have the better black levels and once the higher resolution 3 chippers become a little more commonplace, I may consider getting one :eek: The chap I bought the G90 from, moved to one!

    Henry, you are of course, welcome.

    Regards

    Yas
     
  19. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Yas,

    I'm lucky I guess as I've never seen a rainbow exept when it rains.:)

    I've heard some say much the same as yourself about the Qualia and HD2K, inasmuch as they are of equal performance except for absolute black level, which is understandable since they have a lamp in them. :) I;ve not yet seen one myself though.

    I'm not sure you'd like a 3chip DLP just yet, as they have less CR than many single chippers, and the black level isn't as good unless you dim them down with an ND filter as they're quite bright. A bigger screen would have the same effect though. RTFM used to have one in his demo room and it did give a remarkably clean and vivid image all the same.

    You seen a G90 before Henry?

    Gary.
     
  20. Godfather

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    Thanks Yas. :thumbsup:

    Gary, I've seen the G70 but not a G90 before. They're kinda rare in the UK!
     
  21. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Lucky for me Yas doesn't live too far away then. Should be another good day - have you got Star Wars on DVD Yas? :)

    I've not got round to seeing Hidden Fortress yet Henry, but I can give you the disk back when we all meet up rather than put it in the post if you like.

    Gary.
     
  22. JimmytheSaint

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    Hi Gary

    I've got Star Wars and about 1000 other movies to pick from.

    Regards

    Yas :)
     
  23. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Could be a long day then.... :D

    Gary.
     

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