CINEOS LCOS better than HiDef Pioneer Plasma?

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs Forum' started by Lone Granger, Jan 20, 2004.

  1. Lone Granger

    Lone Granger
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    I set out below an extract from a Philips Press Release regarding new LCOS products for 2004.

    I would like to hear from HiDef knowledgeable folk with regard to their opinions as to if this product is likely to give a better image than the latest Pioneer 50" HiDef plasma.

    thanks

    Philips 44-inch LCOS TV
    Philips new 44-inch LCOS televisions elevate picture quality to the next level providing unsurpassed natural colors and picture sharpness in a short-depth, low-weight design. Featuring a warm silver finish, the new LCOS televisions include a matching base that can easily hold additional audio and video components.

    With outstanding high definition resolution (1280 x 720 pixels), the new LCOS televisions include Philips Digital Natural MotionTM and Digital Crystal ClearTM technology for enhanced viewing. Digital Natural Motion is a unique and highly advanced processor calculating motion trajectories of moving picture elements, correcting jerky movement in both studio programs and movies. Digital Crystal Clear technology utilizes Dynamic ContrastTM, SVM, digital comb filter, 9-bit processing, luminance enhancements and color enhancements to create a crisp and natural picture from any type, or quality of source.
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I don't think you can make any assumptions based on these specs or technologies.

    I wandered briefly though the Philips stand at CES this year but saw nothing astounding. Last year they were showing the first gen of their Lcos Rear pro's and they were appalling. This years, or the rear pro's at CES, looked OK and nothing like as processed as last year. I think you will have to wait till there is product in UK that you can view before any valid opinions can be made.


    Gordon
     
  3. Lone Granger

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    Hi Gordon

    snowing up there?!

    Just a quick thank you for the huge effort that went into Event 2 and to request a copy of the Show summary ROM - what do I need to do?

    As you know I am besotted with the highest def I can get per £ and if the LCOS is not ready for more than another year, would you say that the latest high contrast HiDef 50" Plasma coupled by DVi to their DVD player (any better alternatives?) is the best futureproof HiDef display?

    Is this the 'Commercial Monitor' - I remember you saying - always opt for the Commercial version - what are the model nos and have you any ideas of any good Midland Dealers where they can be viewed?

    Using the above - should a scaler be put between the player and monitor - if so which do you recommend with a DVi

    what are your thoughts on de-interlacing 1080i - would it give the same quantum leap as it does for std dvd de-interlacing - or have I missed something?

    I think most would agree the Panny is similar to the Pio - one has deeper blacks and tother has DVi - I could sacrafice deep blacks for sharper resolution. - Having said that - the Pio can look a little over sharp on edges (did at Event2) - can edges be softened slightly in the settings, without loosing main definition?

    I am really keen to set up a HiDef HC this year - possibly 2nd Qrt

    preference would be flat panel first for everyday viewing in the lounge (upscaled SKy or better) - later a front projector for an upstairs room - any thoughts how on Earth this can be achieved in practice?! - ie which part of equipment goes in which room - what would need duplicating (clearly speakers!) - what interconnect technology etc?

    I am quite serious about the project, however I will have to watch the pennies......

    I am a frustrated perfectionist so, without being tight, I like to get the best 'bang for the Buck'

    Gordon, I very much welcome any and all information and links you can send me from time to time to help educate me on the subject - I would also be keen to attend any courses aimed at the HC enthusiast, without being Trade fitting courses (too deep!)

    feel free to use my direct mail [email protected]

    kind rgds

    David
    Lone Granger
     
  4. Bernard Barnett

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    You aren't going to get true high definition this way, I hope you know. The only ways to get it are via satellite from Euro1080 (and not a lot showing on there at the moment), or via a PC and WM9, or via a JVC D-VHS player. I suggest you have a look at the High Definition forum which has discussed all these topics exhaustively.
     
  5. Lone Granger

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    if you mean upscaling Dvi DVD not being true HiDef, then yes clearly this is tue - although it can be very smooth.

    DVHS / BluRay - - you have to love it

    heard a PQ issue on 1080 with someone using a 4 metre dish - surely not?

    is there such a thing as 4 metres?!
     
  6. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    David,

    The Event CD roms will go out at some point the 1st quarter of this year. December was a write off for me due to a personal family issue. January and early Feb I need to do Convergent work to get back on track I am afraid. After mid Feb I will continue with CDrommage. Sorry it's so long after Event but these things happen. If you filled in a label at Event you will be posted a CD.

    Panasonic plasma's have DVI too.

    HD FIlm source de-interlacing. Well I think that once you become used to the increase in picture quality from watching HD for a while you start to notice imperfections. Certainly I do. I wold think on a HiRed display like a Pioneer Plasma or a 720P+ projector the benefits would become obvious.

    Good dealer in Midlands. Well one of the things I am doing between now and March is finding good dealers.....I'll let you know how I get on. If you find one let me know too so I can pay them a visit.

    Gordon
     
  7. MAW

    MAW
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    Mr Lone granger, if you hang on till april/may, pioneer will oblige you with a 504mxe. You do not wand a HDE model, you cannot address the pixels with it, there is no way round the screens scaler, sonot much point in Gordon's services with it. The MXE is higher res than the philips TV, though not true 16:9. The panasonic 50" AFAIK still has DVI issues, it assumes the display is xga, leaving the screen to horizontally scale the image. Shame. There are ways, involving flashing the firmware on the dvi card. Personally I don't fancy it. Thought about a projector? Nice mustang chip, 8ft hi def picture, 5k?
     
  8. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Martin,

    Even although you cannot bypass a products scaling chipset that does not mean you cannot get a significant benefit from using an external video processing solution.

    Also my services are not just as a distributor of video and audio products. I do display calibrations and system consultancy (througout UK) by myself and in conjunction with several dealers.

    Mustang chip...1024 x 576.....HD....perhaps. perhaps ED....

    I'm looking forward to the MXE's myself. Might get rid of my Panny at that point :)

    Gordon
     
  9. MAW

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    I'm aware of your services , Gordon. I am the one you couldn't have at event 2. Whilst I do appereciate what the scalers can do for the HDE's it seems mr Granger is after perfection as far as possible, and my point is that the HDE is not the place to start, he'll get more benefit from you with the MXE, decent scaling completely pioneer free, and calibration, a vital and often overlooked aspect of high end home cinema. BTW 1024x576 is matterhorn chip, no scaling for PAL. Mustang is 1280x720, hi def resolution. The infocus 7200, sharp, tosh MT8 etc have it, all with decent enough scaling/deinterlacing, but prob. not up to lumagen standards! Much better than your average plasma though. Or even the latest pioneer come to that.
     
  10. Lone Granger

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    Gentlemen

    thank you for your kind replies - Gordon I more than appreciate your position, so feel free to drop out at any stage we can resume in a few weeks when the Pio is imminent and you are more available.

    So the new Pio - this is the much awaited Commercial hi contrast HiDef dvi model? - the exact model no. please - there are so many similar codes out there - could be an expensive mistake ordering wrong code!

    Gordon, I take your point re calibration and install national coverage - if this is practical in Northants come summer, then I am sure we can talk.

    If 504mxe is full name - what on Earth is the issue over 16:9 format - how many slants can there be on this and oes it matter if running through appropriate Scaler - I seem to remember overhearing at Event 2 that the Scaler used with Plasmas on back wall could configure to any shape without distortion - can it auto zoom to fit smallest dimension (accepting it will blow largest dimension off screen)

    Re de-interlacing 1080i - another contributor said that this couldnt be done without noticeable problems and wasnt worth it...

    what were we watching at Event 2 - 720p?

    is the 504mxe going to offer anything more than a darker glass over the now rather dated (but good) predecessor?

    Even this monitor couldnt take de-interlaced 1080i could it - or does it not require more pixels - al done in the timing? - If purely timing then presumably 720p, 1080i and de-interlaced 10801 are all similar?!

    I would love to think that I have not yet seen the ultimate image (ie the show image could be enhanced sill further.

    Best image I have ever seen was Bikini Destinations (PQ!!) on the Sim2 Grand Theater DLP 55" RearPro - utterly stunning

    comments lads please as and when you can afford the time

    Lone Granger
     
  11. MAW

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    The upcoming 504MXE will accept the resolutions you are considering, it has a functional DVI input, and to a good scaler like Gordon's, the fact that 1280x768 is actually 14:9 is immaterial. The pixels are slightly rectangular, but not so obvious when you are watching, and as you say, taken care of by a scaler. The best picture I have yet seen is a mustang chip projector, I preferred it to CRT projection, but maybe that's just me.

    The commercial model will be just like the 504HDE but without the pants analogue tuned media box. There is no difference whatsoever between the plasma panels of the 503 and 504 models, just a bit of dark glass, and they are absolutely no worse for that lack of difference. Personally, I'd look for a cheap 503 in April when the new one is announced.
     
  12. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Martin,

    Good point re Mustang.....all these f.ing MMM's is doing my head in.:blush:

    Yes I know you couldn't come to Event. I will be trying to come to you though. Nothing wrong with prefering a DLP to a CRT. Many folk do. Of course is all depends on which CRT and DLP. I certainly prefer my DLP to my plasma!

    For anyone else reading this I have been told that it'll be about 14 days until the ISF cal software for the HDE's is released to me.


    David,

    HD software at Event2 off the JVC decks was all 1080i except the NFL football stuff which you might have seen streamed from X3ELS PC. That was 720P.


    Many plasma's can accept 1080P signal (none can do film mode detection on 1080i sources). They all down scale that signal though to fit their own resolutions. When fed a 1080i source there is much debate of how each device actually deals with it!

    GORDON
     
  13. Lone Granger

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    so it should be an MXE and the old one is 503 and new one 504

    couple of points:

    the 503 is pretty antique isnt it (the original XGA monitor) therefore I would be buying old technology - performance and endurance?

    also, presumably no digital interface (DVi?)

    I hear that driving a Pio with the DVi from a DVi Pio DVD is stunning - questions are was that the non commercial one (with internal scaler or commercial monitor?)

    Also if Lumagen does not have this type of pure digital capability then presumably this is bad news - any news on when Lumagen will introduce it? - Alternative pure digital scalers?

    Forgive me if I am well out of my technical depth here, but i am keen to get the right equipment as I shall be downgrading my tuned hothatch to a £1k Omega and taking out a loan to finance it all. - I.e It is a very important decision selecting HW for the HC project.............!
     
  14. Lone Granger

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    so it should be an MXE and the old one is 503 and new one 504

    couple of points:

    the 503 is pretty antique isnt it (the original XGA monitor) therefore I would be buying old technology - performance and endurance?

    also, presumably no digital interface (DVi?)

    I hear that driving a Pio with the DVi from a DVi Pio DVD is stunning - questions are was that the non commercial one (with internal scaler or commercial monitor?)

    Also if Lumagen does not have this type of pure digital capability then presumably this is bad news - any news on when Lumagen will introduce it? - Alternative pure digital scalers?

    Forgive me if I am well out of my technical depth here, but i am keen to get the right equipment as I shall be downgrading my tuned hothatch to a £1k Omega and taking out a loan to finance it all. - I.e It is a very important decision selecting HW for the HC project.............!
     
  15. Lone Granger

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    so it should be an MXE and the old one is 503 and new one 504

    couple of points:

    the 503 is pretty antique isnt it (the original XGA monitor) therefore I would be buying old technology - performance and endurance?

    also, presumably no digital interface (DVi?)

    I hear that driving a Pio with the DVi from a DVi Pio DVD is stunning - questions are was that the non commercial one (with internal scaler or commercial monitor?)

    Also if Lumagen does not have this type of pure digital capability then presumably this is bad news - any news on when Lumagen will introduce it? - Alternative pure digital scalers?

    Forgive me if I am well out of my technical depth here, but i am keen to get the right equipment as I shall be downgrading my tuned hothatch to a £1k Omega and taking out a loan to finance it all. - I.e It is a very important decision selecting HW for the HC project.............!
     
  16. Lone Granger

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    so it should be an MXE and the old one is 503 and new one 504

    couple of points:

    the 503 is pretty antique isnt it (the original XGA monitor) therefore I would be buying old technology - performance and endurance?

    also, presumably no digital interface (DVi?)
     
  17. Lone Granger

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    so it should be an MXE and the old one is 503 and new one 504

    couple of points:

    the 503 is pretty antique isnt it (the original XGA monitor) therefore I would be buying old technology - performance and endurance?

    also, presumably no digital interface (DVi?)
     
  18. Lone Granger

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    I hear that driving a Pio with the DVi from a DVi Pio DVD is stunning - questions are was that the non commercial one (with internal scaler or commercial monitor?)

    Also if Lumagen does not have this type of pure digital capability then presumably this is bad news - any news on when Lumagen will introduce it? - Alternative pure digital scalers?

    Forgive me if I am well out of my technical depth here, but i am keen to get the right equipment as I shall be downgrading my tuned hothatch to a £1k Omega and taking out a loan to finance it all. - I.e It is a very important decision selecting HW for the HC project.............!
     
  19. MAW

    MAW
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    How many posts? And please read, MXE=DVI yes it DOES have one and yes it works, Gordon will tell you the best way to connect his products, I won't step on his toes. HDE = HDMI, fro a suitable DVD player. It's DVI and scaling/digital connection for consumers. If you are planning on professional install, it can be bettered. If you can hack PC's that's a possibility too. DVI to plasma for HDTV, digitally scaled sky, freeview and DVD. And why is the 503 dated, Pioneer have just based their latest and supposedly greatest plasma on it. It's not dated at all, IMHO still the best plasma. In any size, in view of performance and features.
     
  20. _Sin

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    This is not really true.

    I have mine hooked up on DVI at the native 1366x768 and haven't done anything to the panel to enable that...

    AFAIK the only thing flashing the firmware will currently do is have the card report back a more sane resolution to a device that is connected to it. There is no reason you have to do this to drive it at that resolution, nor will it improve the selection of modes available on the card itself anyway. It'd only be necessary if you had a device that refused to drive the card at anything other than it's reported resolutions.

    The main issue with the panasonic (don't strictly know if this is the panel or the card at fault) is that it only likes ~60Hz and won't do 50 or 75 (or anything else) when driven at it's native resolution.

    Looks great. Wish I had native resolution source material :)
     
  21. MAW

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    I can speak only from my own experience. The card reports the screen as 1024x768, not 1366, and whilst you can send it any res you like, the card is sending xga to the panel, which then scales it to 1366. Quite well, but not the object of the exercise. Which screen exactly do you have and when was it bought. This problem has endless discussion here, with usually 1 or 2 people who say 'I have no problems' 1 who says he's hacked the firmware, and about 100 others who'd love to do it but can't. You've got me interested.
     
  22. _Sin

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    Panny 6 series, 50" (TH-50PHW-BX) bought from the ever helpful people at av-sales. Bought it just before Christmas, with the card included.

    The panel does indeed report the screen as 1024x768 but that only affects the default resolutions available. If you just tell your card to output a different resolution, it will. After all, "They're more like guidelines anyway..." (and no prizes for guessing which film I've been using to test my setup with).

    I hacked up a quick and dirty power-strip setting (the default 1368x768 setting is slightly out of sync on mine - you have to lower the refresh a shade and then it'll match).

    That got me a stable picture, but there was still some nasty scaling on the panel, though it was obviously *nearly* the right resolution. There was also an offset to the picture and some strange duplication/stretching going on at the left or right hand side depending on the sync settings.

    Basically it turns out that my panel had a slight scaling applied in the geometry setup, and if I just changed the horizontal size down by about 10 pixels it became perfectly 1:1 matched. To make life easier I knocked up a test-card image with alternating pixels and a visible border at the left and right - then I just moved the image so that I had it perfectly set up with a one pixel overscan left and right.

    Sorted.

    I don't need power-strip to run the mode once it's installed (except if I want to tweak the refresh rate), and if you hack the firmware I guess you could get around the mode creation stage - but I suspect it's less trouble and less dangerous to avoid that...

    I'm guessing that people with problems possibly haven't managed to get it stable in the first place (i.e. maybe I stumbled on a stable sync setting easier than some people have) or that they've read the manual where it claims you can't stretch the picture on the DVI card (which obviously you can, and I had to).

    What I wasn't able to do was sync to anything other than around 60Hz.

    HTH.

    I could post my powerstrip mode settings but I'll need to go home first, and honestly I didn't change much from the PDP 1368x768 defaults it provides...

    Now if I could just convince my HTPC to produce digital audio without glitching every 5 seconds I'd be a happy bunny!
     
  23. MAW

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    Thanks for that, I'll see if I can duplicate it. Maybe Panasonic have in fact got it right now, it's been a problem for years, well ever since DVI....
     
  24. jason t

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    hi guys i would like to know how much my 434 hde would benefit from an iscan ultra

    thanks

    jason
     
  25. MAW

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    Gordon's the man on this, but I've done this too, the only real problem is the cost, and the shared input 3. Do you have an HDMI dvd player?
     
  26. jason t

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    no at the moment i have a hkdvd25 but a new dvd player would be a future buy


    jason
     
  27. Lone Granger

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    I shall investigate a Lumagen with Pio MXE - either outgoing or 04 model (50") - not yet sure of ramiifications. - Also the TV model has the 'better & more modern' digital cabling interface

    erring on side of MXE with DVi + possiblyLuma Pro +Dvi (expensive!)

    need to be able to see these beasties in action -- any ideas?
     
  28. Joe Fernand

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    Lone Granger

    Just to give you something else to 'worry' over keep in mind that the HDMI equipped 'Consumer' source kit includes HDCP copy protection in the Digital Video signal path and your HDMI or DVI equipped Video processor and/or Display Device also needs to be HDCP compliant or you get no signal.

    I expect the new 04 MXE models to be a very worthwhile step forward from the current 03 MXE models - Pioneer in Japan have spent a lot of time on the improvements to the new chassis; and they go much further than simply a darker front filter; which Incidently will make a big difference in high ambient light conditions.

    Also expect to see the new longer life phosphors as found in the new 04 HDE's and improvements in anti screen burn tools and the panel itself being better equipped to not suffer from screen burn.

    It will be interesting to see how the next generation of external video processors that offer Digital and Analogue connectivity to the latest displays fair and if the all Digital route really is any better than an analogue signal path.

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS NT 157 477 GB
     
  29. MAW

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    That's the key to all this, I am not convinced at the current state of play, except with PC to the right device.
     
  30. fishyuk

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    I contacted Philips UK about this model as only the 55" is on the UK website. They have no plans to release the 44" in the UK which I find odd as the average house over here has far less floor space than one in the states. They don't have confirmed UK pricing or a launch date either.

    A shame as the 44" looked like the perfect option to attach my HTPC to (although I'm not sure if it will allow WXGA DVI PC output).
     

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