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Cinema and a new appreciation of my ae100

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by calibos, Jan 7, 2003.

  1. calibos

    calibos
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    I've only been to the cinema twice including tonight since I got my AE100 last April. I went to see ST Nemesis in IMC in Dun Laoghaire here in Ireland. Its a modern multiplex that only opened about 2 years ago.

    I have to say that it gave me a renewed appreciation of my AE100. The reasons? Well the contrast and shadow detail didn't seem much better than at home. ie blacks were gray and not much detail in dark area's of the screen. I never knew what these things were till I got my PJ so never took notice in the cinema before. The film print was nigh on perfect, there was little or no ambient light (ie no bright exit signs beside the screen or half dimmed side uplighters etc) I'm not complaining about the viewing experience in the cinema either, it was as good as any other I can remember. What I'm saying is that maybe the detail and contrast is on the film print but the cinema PJ doesn't reveal all of it. When transferred to DVD and dispayed on high contrast devices like TV's, CRT PJ's etc this detail is revealed.

    If this is so then I think I can rationalise it if thats the right word by looking at it like the 4:3 Super35 widescreen thing. For those that dont know what that is, its a 4:3 ratio film stock where the Director pans and scans a widescreen print out of the 4:3 stock which is what you see in the cinema. The 4:3 version for tv is made by using the full frame from the original 4:3 super35 film stock (ie paradoxically you see more image on the top and bottom of the 4:3 version than the widescreen version) rather than the usual scenario of panning and scanning a widecreen film stock where you see more at left and right on the WS version. I know I'm beginning to ramble but what I mean is that, I say to myself "I know the 4:3 dvd version has more picture top and bottom but I'm still buying the widscreen version because thats what the director intended me to see in the Cinema." Likewise I know that better projectors or tv's will have more contrast and more shadow detail than my AE100 but the image I get on it is closer to what I saw in the cinema than they are. ie 'Closer to what the director intended me to see in the cinema':D

    Am I mad...just trying to fool myself...make myself feel better about owning last years technology after getting jealous about kramers new HS10???

    Of course vertical banding and chicken wire are another thing entirely:D
     
  2. Timh

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    Hi Keith

    Last year I saw Attack of the Clones at a Warner Village on a THX screen, I found the picture pretty good but it didn't blow me away like I was expecting, when the DVD was released I coudn't believe how good it looked on my AE100, there seemed to be far more detail than on the THX screen, and even the blacks seemed better.

    Still using your Sony 325 dvd player? you should really try progressive scan like with the Philips 963sa. Much better contrast, detail and blacks with progressive scan, oh and no chicken wire :)
     
  3. juboy

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    Following on from Timh's post, I watched Attack of the Clones on DVD via progressive scan on my 36ZD26P over Christmas.

    Nothing unusual about that you may think but the main difference was that a friend of mine who works for ILM (and actually worked on AOTC) watched it with me... he stated quite categorically that the picture quality was the closest he'd yet seen to the digital projection cinema owned by George Lucas.

    Also, during a recent complaint I made about the screening of Black Hawk Down on a crappy screen, I was told by the manager of one of our local multiplexes that he himself prefers to watch DVDs at home as it was better quality than his own cinema!
     
  4. theritz

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    Absolooooootely !


    The only times I go to the cinema is for first run stuff for my daughter (Chamber of Secrets type of stuff.....) our local is a UCI and they had the foresight to locate all the fire exits at the screen end of the cinemas, so that there's a nice bright green and white "Exit" sign constantly in your line of vision. Thoughtful touch, that, drives me absolutely bonkers. The normal added benefits of visiting you local cinema, (noisy ill mannered dorks who talk thru the movie/eat loudly/let their kids run around etc. or that sticky feeling under your feet from countless spilled soft drinks (at least I hope that's what it is....)) I can well do without also, thank you.


    I also agree that while bitching about blacks, colour uniformity etc is de rigeur for posts here, the picture quality (don't get started on the sound system) in the cinema is nowhere as good as I have at home. Friends who have seen decent transfer DVDs via laptop on the AE100 suddenly undertsand what its all about - they see a tv image first and say wow, see any demo disc and say WOW.

    Yes. I'd love a HS10 too, but going to the cinema really tells you how lucky you are !!!


    Byeee

    Sean G.
     
  5. Crocodile JD

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    Hi guys

    I've just done the reverse process. I made the mistake of comparing my PJ (Sanyo PLV30 onto Draper Luma 16:9 8ft screen with 1.1 gain) against my TV (Bush 28" realflat screen). They are side by side and both being fed S-video. I viewed them both simultaniously and separately to allow for the fact that the TV introduced unwanted light for the PJ. Depth of feild and blacks are, I realise, a perennial issue for LCD PJ's but colours were also much less vivid. Skies in particular are a problem. From the sun rise scene to the clear blue desert skies in Mummy there was a considerable drop off in the vibrancy of colours, the blue skies pailing to almost a washed out grey at times. I managed to improve still frames by tweaking the colour separations but then with the continual change from light to dark scenes no one setting did all. Another very noticable difference was in the highlights e.g. the light glinting off treasure, knives and things. I realise that Mummy is a real tester but I admit to being left slightly disillusioned with the PJ as a result. The same comments also apply to Gladiator. Those more experienced than I may tell me that it's a complete no no to compare a 28" image with an 8ft image but too late now, damage done!

    My hope is that Prog Scan will give the PJ a lift. Will PS do it or are my expectations too high after such a comparison. I'm not sure whether to go for the Limit or hold off a bit longer to see what else comes along. Maybe a trip to the Cinema would convince me to get into PS sooner rather than later. What do you think?

    Crocodile JD:(
     
  6. Timh

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    corocodile

    Yes, you will see a differance in progressive scan, especially the Philips, but I think at 8ft your image is a little big for the plv-30, try zooming it in a little to make the image smaller, picture quality improves greatly. My Brothers PLV-30 is running at 7ft wide, and thats alittle big for this projector IMHO.
    I woudn't even dare go that big with my AE100, I would loose to much bite!
    If you want an 8ft image you might be better of with something like the "dare i say sean" The Sony HS10. ;)
     
  7. juboy

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    Crocodile JD - don't be too hard on your PJ, you really can't compare a 2ft CRT image to an 8ft one :)

    The benefits of a projector are the sheer size and scale of the image, the benefit of a decent CRT is the quality of image.

    I ummed and ahhed about going down the PJ route but for me, it's a pin-sharp image that won the day. Both have their plusses, both have their minuses.
     
  8. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    CRT will always have better contrast, blacks etc.

    But a PJ gives you size, and more detail. I was concerned about a 'low res' image being blown up to 7ft wide, but there is plenty of detail that just isn't visible on my 32" widescreen TV due to the scale of the display.
     
  9. z5461313

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    With the PLV30 you have to use component to get a better picture. S Video is not the best connection at all.

    Then feeding interlaced gives you quite a ropey picture so you have to try progressive.

    This will give you a stable, detailed and colourful picture.

    I have the Limit and I could not watch DVD's on my CRT television again, the projector is only way to watch them.

    The size of the picture sometimes only effects visible screendoor.

    With projectors I have found what you feed it is exactly what you see and you need all the video enhancements you can get to improve the picture
     
  10. Crocodile JD

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    Thanks all for helping me to regain some perspective on this. I do remember being blown away with the set up when I first had it. May be I've just got used to it and I'm being overly critical or could the lamp have been brighter initially and it's dropped off since? (Have I just said something really stupid? Is it that a lamp is either on, off or dead?). By the way does anyone know how to check lamp age on the PLV30? I read in another thread that you hold the 'Up' arrow down for 25 secs shortly after turning on. I've done this but nothing.:clown:

    Anyway, I think I'll get a look at the Limit ASAP and also take a trip to the old Silver Screen maybe to see LOTR TT (I was going to wait for the DVD release!)
     
  11. rob@rar.org.uk

    rob@rar.org.uk
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    I've seen LOTR TT twice in the last few days: once at the Odeon, Leicester Sq. and once at my local multiplex. The difference in quality between the two venues was simply stunning. The Odeon was mind-blowing: the huge screen helps, but apart from that the picture was rock solid, sharply focused with great colours and you had to listen closely to the sound system to tell just how good it was. The multiplex was simply dire. The picture had a constant vibration, was out of focus on the left and right of the screen and was dirty and scratched, and the sound system was constantly 'in your face'. Even my girlfriend remarked that we have a better set-up at home.

    I wonder if the growth in home cinema will up the ante in terms of quality at your local picture house, or will people, like me, only make the effort to see blockbusters at high quality venues and for everything else buy the DVD? The sooner that cinemas move to DLP projection, the better as far as I'm concerned. I saw AOTC at Leicester Sq Odeon when it was projected by a TI DLP. It was like watching a moving work of art. At times the picture quality was so good it was distracting my attention from the film! If only I could have one of those at home...

    Regards

    Rob
     
  12. juboy

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    Although, of course, the concept of 'home cinema' is one of the great technological oxymorons of modern times.

    The two are intrinsically distinct and always will be.

    In fact, there's an interesting article by David Vivian on the last page of this month's Hi-Fi Choice about that very point.

    It makes reference to the fact the two experiences are entirely different, noting that the main problem with home AV systems are that the sound levels are nearly always out of proportion to the size of image viewed and that in the hunt for ever higher fidelity amps and speakers for home use, we're actually getting further and further away from the fairly low to mid end 'welly' and impact of the regular cinema sound systems.

    Worth a read.
     
  13. Crocodile JD

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    That's exactly why I went the PJ route. Once having installed an AV amp and speaker system (albeit a relatively modest one - Yam RXV496RDS 65w/chan and Kef KHT sub/sat) the sound was just to big for the picture. It wasn't that I needed a bigger picture per se. I just wasn't convinced by all the steering effects etc going all round a reasonable sized room when you were focussed on such a relatively (only my opinion) small screen, that is a TV, in the corner of it somewhere. I think balance is key and often overlooked. I do feel that the balance I have is now very good in terms of scale but not quite so good in terms of quality.

    Well I've very nearly talked myself into PS just a bit more on the Psychosomatics should do it!

    BTW anyone got anything on the 'Lamp reduction' gumph or the PLV30 lamp age thing?:confused:

    Crocodile JD
     
  14. jonny m

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    Crocodile JD
    I have a plv-30 clone, to get the lamp age you hold the up key on the top of the pj for 30 secs and it will appear.

    The difference between svid input + pal prog scan into my pj from my 963 is like night and day, the extra difference is amazing, colours clarity, stability of picture, it really looks like film as opposed to watching a tv image.

    I have a 60" screen - yes just 5 feet! Sometimes I feel its small but I also see the screen door. So its a good compromise image/size.

    Cheers
    John
     
  15. Donnacha

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    Crocodile JD

    what do you think of your Yammy / Kef audio set-up? Its the same as mine, but I'm awaiting the sub's arrival at the weekend.

    I can't wait!
     
  16. Crocodile JD

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    John

    Thanks for info will try again. With regard to the 963 did you do the Pal PS and MR hacks yourself and is it easy enough to do, or can you get them pre modded now? (Or from what I've read can you get them at all at the mo?)

    Crocodile JD
     
  17. Timh

    Timh
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    Crocodile

    Beware, if you go for the 963sa allready hacked for multi-region, this gets cancelled out when you do the pal progressive hack, so you will need a pronto or One for all remote to rehack it to multi region.
     
  18. pinkerton

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    Would this multiplex be Liffey Valley by chance?
    If so then I know it well :)
     
  19. calibos

    calibos
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    No I think thats the Ster Century you're thinking of. Its on the other side of Dublin. Has the biggest screen in Ireland I think.
     
  20. Crocodile JD

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    Donnacha

    Sorry, didn't see your post earlier.

    First of all the sub is absolutely integral to the overall sound. As sub/sat systems go it has suprising amount of mid range and not so suprising from Kef Uni Q fine detail from the satallite drivers. The Uni Q drivers also present a wide sound stage, ideal for movies. They sound more like mid range HiFi speakers than a sub/sat system. I wall mounted mine (too close to the corners) but I've got stands as well and TBH they sound better on the stands. Although the whole point for me was max. sound for min. intrusion (the later more accurately being a point made by the wife!):D The sub also is better away from all walls else the bass can get a bit wild. The system as a whole is a blast for movies once you're into DD/DTS the amp really comes to life but it's a bit tame in stereo. I've never tried it for multi channel but the amp has ext. inputs to cater, although, the DAC bit rate is not that high. I fined the power is ample at 65w/chan x 5 and 150w sub. As I mentioned earlier, scale is important to me and the balance, I feel, is right in relation to screen size and room size. Build quality is excellent on both the Yam and the Kefs. It's not quite the all in one (movies and music) solution I was looking for, I think the speakers could easily stand an upgrade or two.

    Tim

    Thanks for the advise although without being too sure whats involved with regard to the either of the hacks I would prefer an out of box solution, preferably UK. Anyone know where to go for best?

    Crocodile JD
     
  21. Timh

    Timh
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    Crocodile

    The cheapest I have seen the 963 so far is here
     
  22. Crocodile JD

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    Tim

    I had a look at that link thanks. I didn't see Pal PS or MR mentioned, did I miss it or is it that I would have to hack it my self? Only I was reading one of the original threads from Soundman on another forum today. All that talk about firmware upgrades to correct lip sync and getting the right strings for the hacks and then loosing a hack and needing a pronto as you mentioned. I admit, I don't even know what a pronto is. I gather it is a smart universal remote or something? Perhaps you could enlighten me. :confused: Anyway it all sounds scary to me which is why I was hoping for a pre modified machine. Do you know if they are available or indeed if the one you pointed me to is.

    Thanks

    Crocodile JD
     
  23. Donnacha

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    Crocodile JD

    thanks for the input. My sub in turning up on Sunday - so I'll finally be able to piece it all together and start to appreciate it. I too went for the small but good quality approach as the HC room is not very big. I'm not too pushed about it for music though. Also thinking of getting the Yamaha rxv430 amp for DD EX and DTS ES in "phantom" mode as I've no room for the 6th speaker.

    Donnacha
     
  24. Smurfin

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    I'd echo this, I have my Z1 projecting onto an 8' screen, and it's simply stunning.

    Re: CRT TVs - they may have better contrast/blacks etc.....however I'm not bothered about this anymore. Strange you might think, but any movie on any CRT TV looks wholely "uncinematic" to me, the same goes, I have to say, for rear projection TVs. Don't misunderstand me, a movie on a big RP TV set looks good, but imho the type of image thrown by a projector (aside from the size) is much more cinematic.
     
  25. snocrash

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    The main problem is simple -- If the movies were released at the Cinema and on DVD at the same time, I'd watch it at home -- But that isn't the case. Commercial cinema is here to stay.
     
  26. Timh

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    Crocodile

    I can't say that I know of any dealers that sell the 963 already hacked for multi-region and pal progressive, there must be one out there somewhere.
    A Pronto is a Universal remote that can be modified on your pc to control most equipment for around £150.
    Take a look here
    Read a review here it normally comes in Silver.
     

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