Choosing new speakers

Aslund

Active Member
So you are going with the 1120 then?
I think so. My main concerns regarding the TDAI-1120 was whether it had enough power to drive the speakers and whether RoomPerfect would have the same impact as with my old Dali 850 speakers.
I had concerns regarding the volume level on FM-30 but @Paul7777x and @andycc72 have shared their volume levels on theirs TDAI-1120 and I feel quite confident that TDAI-1120 is powerful enough for my need.
The improvements with RoomPerfect is not as big on FM-30 as with Dali 850 but still substantial enough to give a clear benefit.
So all in all I can't see anything wrong with TDAI-1120.
Only problem I have is that Netflix and Disney+ on the TV default the sound to 5.1. Then I have no sound through the speakers. On Netflix I can change it to standard stereo but I can't on Disney+
 

TheHighFlyingBirds

Distinguished Member
Thank you for your input Orobas. I was actually just about to update my post before you, but my wife threw a baby in my arms.
I am a quick to judge but I don't make conclusion fast, I am always sceptical of my opinions. I preferred Sonetto V this morning, true, but I was still sceptical if I missed something.
As the little one woke up I gave the volume a notch up and listened to the speakers again. The fact from the morning remains. Sonetto V lifts the treble details and prove more air around the vocals, but the FM-30 has a far far stronger bass response and detail. In Gotye's "Somebody I Used To Know" I found a nice detailed drum with FM-30 that was totally gone on Sonetto V. I simple could not hear it.
So I might pull back on my favoritism on the Sonetto V and listened a bit more.
The treble details on the Sonetto V opens the soundstage but the bass details on FM-30 gives extra body to the songs.
Remember, I don't make any final conclusion before it is Monday :D

Ps.
I forgot to add. The difference in loudness is not big between the speakers. I would guess it is around 8 in volume difference in the Lyngdorf app.
Been reading this thread and the gear is well above my level so cant offer any info, but looking at pics, one speaker is in a corner and one is not in a corner. I read that you had one of each speaker connected to the amp at the same time to do a side by side comparison. The pics show the SF in the corner, so I assume that the gato was not in the corner. Could this be the reason for the bass boom? Could you try the gato in the corner and the SF on the other side? Just to give a fair comparison, as the corner location will always be worst. Apologies if you have already done this.
 

Aslund

Active Member
And time for my Sunday morning update. So I have tried to make additional improvements to my setup. The TV table is removed. I have pushed my TV more to the right and moved the speaker closest to the corner further away.
I have kept the distance to the wall.

It has further improved the bass but to my frustration it is not enough. I apologise in advance for the choice of song but I had my 4 year old daughter with me.

In this track there is a deep note around 20 seconds in that results in slight boomy sound, it irritates my ears. Many songs the bass is superb, accurate and tight. Really amazing. But in songs like these it irritates my ears.
I tried to insert a dummy subwoofer which allows me to insert a high pass filter on the speakers. I took a sharp roll-off with a 8th order LR.
With the crossover frequency at 50-55Hz the boomy sound is gone. But it feels disappointing that it has to be set so high.
 

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Steve356

Distinguished Member
And time for my Sunday morning update. So I have tried to make additional improvements to my setup. The TV table is removed. I have pushed my TV more to the right and moved the speaker closest to the corner further away.
I have kept the distance to the wall.

It has further improved the bass but to my frustration it is not enough. I apologise in advance for the choice of song but I had my 4 year old daughter with me.

In this track there is a deep note around 20 seconds in that results in slight boomy sound, it irritates my ears. Many songs the bass is superb, accurate and tight. Really amazing. But in songs like these it irritates my ears.
I tried to insert a dummy subwoofer which allows me to insert a high pass filter on the speakers. I took a sharp roll-off with a 8th order LR.
With the crossover frequency at 50-55Hz the boomy sound is gone. But it feels disappointing that it has to be set so high.

I have to ask.... When you change these speaker positions, are you re-running RoomPerfect each time?
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
I think so. My main concerns regarding the TDAI-1120 was whether it had enough power to drive the speakers and whether RoomPerfect would have the same impact as with my old Dali 850 speakers.
I had concerns regarding the volume level on FM-30 but @Paul7777x and @andycc72 have shared their volume levels on theirs TDAI-1120 and I feel quite confident that TDAI-1120 is powerful enough for my need.
The improvements with RoomPerfect is not as big on FM-30 as with Dali 850 but still substantial enough to give a clear benefit.
So all in all I can't see anything wrong with TDAI-1120.
Only problem I have is that Netflix and Disney+ on the TV default the sound to 5.1. Then I have no sound through the speakers. On Netflix I can change it to standard stereo but I can't on Disney+
Re Disney+ ... Supported audio formats for a given title can be found in the DETAILS section under each title. I don't know if stereo is listed.. but that may be of help
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Yes. I have rerun RoomPerfect after rearranging.
Any ideas what can be done to counter the boomy bass?
Boomy bass as i have mentioned a few times can be a number of factors from things like floating floors, upstairs listening rooms using the air void downstairs, plasterboard walls allowing the sound to punch straight through it and use the room behind... cupboards are a boom box magnet.. and that is just a few things in the house to consider without the speakers themself and the placement.
This is one of the reasons i said about the paving slab to reduce the down boom.. which it is "slightly" you said.. just not massively. this is down to the size of slab though that you had..
Re boom control in a room... without resorting to damping materials on the walls or major speaker re-positioning.. there is not much you can do. You "might" .. depending on what RP allows.. be able to go into the crossover / eq and manually tweak it afterwards but that is a more technical approach
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
Yes. I have rerun RoomPerfect after rearranging.
Any ideas what can be done to counter the boomy bass?

Thanks for confirming you were doing a new RP calibration each time. I just wanted to check as I've heard in the past of people changing crossover filters, speaker positions, listening positions, etc and not running RP each time with disappointing results. I was guilty of it myself when I first started home trialling a 2170 and 3400 with the floor standing speakers I owned at the time. It's an easy mistake to make.

Now onto the boomy bass issue. I'm not familiar with the SF speakers you are trialling, so this will involve some guesswork based on my personal experience. Your speakers look a decent distance from any side walls, so I don't think any boom is being caused by corner proximity. Having them so close to the front wall could be an issue and while RP would normally remove any boom in that position, it might be worth pulling them out just a little bit more, say 10cm from the front wall just to give the port a little more room to breathe. That might also improve stereo imaging (it did during my trials).

I may have missed this earlier in the thread, but where is your MLP in the room? Is it against a rear wall for example or mid room, etc?

Personally I wouldn't be bothering with any crossover filters at this stage. They shouldn't be necessary if RP is doing its job properly.

If you still experience boom, then it does sound like slabs under the speakers could help. You probably also need to run REW to see where the problem frequency is.
 

Aslund

Active Member
Thanks for confirming you were doing a new RP calibration each time. I just wanted to check as I've heard in the past of people changing crossover filters, speaker positions, listening positions, etc and not running RP each time with disappointing results. I was guilty of it myself when I first started home trialling a 2170 and 3400 with the floor standing speakers I owned at the time. It's an easy mistake to make.

Now onto the boomy bass issue. I'm not familiar with the SF speakers you are trialling, so this will involve some guesswork based on my personal experience. Your speakers look a decent distance from any side walls, so I don't think any boom is being caused by corner proximity. Having them so close to the front wall could be an issue and while RP would normally remove any boom in that position, it might be worth pulling them out just a little bit more, say 10cm from the front wall just to give the port a little more room to breathe. That might also improve stereo imaging (it did during my trials).

I may have missed this earlier in the thread, but where is your MLP in the room? Is it against a rear wall for example or mid room, etc?

Personally I wouldn't be bothering with any crossover filters at this stage. They shouldn't be necessary if RP is doing its job properly.

If you still experience boom, then it does sound like slabs under the speakers could help. You probably also need to run REW to see where the problem frequency is.
Just a quick reply. It is the Gato Audio FM-30 I am trialling. I also had the Sonus Faber Sonetto V, but I have discarded them and solely focusing on the FM-30.
I will see if I can find time to rerun RoomPerfect with the speakers a little more out.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
Just a quick reply. It is the Gato Audio FM-30 I am trialling. I also had the Sonus Faber Sonetto V, but I have discarded them and solely focusing on the FM-30.
I will see if I can find time to rerun RoomPerfect with the speakers a little more out.

My mistake. I thought it was the other way round and the FM-30s had been discarded. Sorry. :blush:

I assume you're not changing any settings on the rear of the speakers after running RP. Is this assumption correct?

What speaker settings have you set? Neutral? If not Neutral, have you tried these setting with RP?

Gato show the speakers toed in towards the listener in their user manual. Have you tried this with RP?

Sorry for so many questions.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
And time for my Sunday morning update. So I have tried to make additional improvements to my setup. The TV table is removed. I have pushed my TV more to the right and moved the speaker closest to the corner further away.
I have kept the distance to the wall.

It has further improved the bass but to my frustration it is not enough. I apologise in advance for the choice of song but I had my 4 year old daughter with me.

In this track there is a deep note around 20 seconds in that results in slight boomy sound, it irritates my ears. Many songs the bass is superb, accurate and tight. Really amazing. But in songs like these it irritates my ears.
I tried to insert a dummy subwoofer which allows me to insert a high pass filter on the speakers. I took a sharp roll-off with a 8th order LR.
With the crossover frequency at 50-55Hz the boomy sound is gone. But it feels disappointing that it has to be set so high.

Just listened to that track via headphones and via my speakers (my family think I've finally lost the plot on music :laugh::rotfl:). I hear a slight boominess in the bass on both, so it might be the recording. To judge bass quality properly, I think you might want to use some other recordings with maybe a more natural bass.

If you really want to listen to something modern with loads of bass, I tend to use Bad Guy by Billie Eillish. That track should hit hard, push your speakers (and room) with a large image that extends beyond the width of speakers, but at the same time still sound reasonably dynamic and clean.

In case it's of interest, whenever I check for bass boom and quality in various listening demos and sessions at home, I tend to use one album nowadays to start with -- The Hunter by Jennifer Warnes. There are at least 4 tracks on that album that will tell me all I need to know about the system I'm listening to and whether I then want to try other material on the system or move on.
 

Aslund

Active Member
That’s it folks. The end of my week long home demo is finished. I have returned everything last Monday and I have spent my time digesting the experience.

Thanks

I owe everyone who have participated in this thread, a big thanks. Your dedication and knowledge has been essential for me to reach the finish line. From the vague starting post, the thread has turned into a journey on finding the best speaker for me. The sparing I had with you all helped me finding my path through the other side.

While I appreciate everyone’s help I must point out @Orobas. He is an entity that has transcend humanity and turn into an encyclopaedia on speakers and their sounds. Without his advice I would never have noticed Gato Audio and their speakers.

Summary

I must conclude that the Gato Audio FM-30 is an amazing speaker. Anyone looking for a speaker with a well-defined and detailed lower end and an airy top, should give these speakers a listen.
I have compared the speakers to Sonus Faber Sonetto V, and I must say that the Sonetto V are entrancing in its vocals. I had my own doubts and concerns when I listened between the FM-30 and Sonetto V and switched often between them. (I had one of each speaker connected to the amplifer). The slight attenuation in the treble made me draw towards the Sonetto V and question whether FM-30 was the best choice.
But where the treble bewitched me, the lower midrange and bass failed the Sonetto V. It became apparent, when I moved away from changing between speakers often, and instead let the songs play for a while. The tight and well-defined lower end gave a body and completeness to FM-30 that Sonetto V totally lacked. In comparison the Sonetto V felt like a rubber that was being stretched. It lacked the coherency and balance that the FM-30 had.

Besides testing FM-30 and Sonetto V, I also had the enjoyment to test the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 amplifier. Here I must say to anyone out there. Given RoomPerfect a try. It is amazing how it can transform, no, enhance the sound of the speakers. In no way do you feel the character of the speakers are altered, instead the details are improved and there is a much better separation on the different parts of the song It is a digital amplifier and in my quest for a new speaker, I have spoken to a few people in shops. Many disregards or writes off anything digital.
I compared the TDAI-1120 with Gato Audio’s own DIA-400S, a class D amplifier. Where the DIA-400S had the bright airy treble, that I can recall hearing described by many who are against claas D, the Lyngdorf was different. With RoomPerfect the treble was warmer and fuller than that of DIA-400S.

Problems

It was a joy to test Gato Audio FM-30. The only problem was the deepest of bass. With the speakers just against the wall, RoomPerfect ensured that the bass became very authoritative and imposing. But in a few tracks, there is a slight boomy sound, just slight. An example is Bad Guy by Billie Eillish that @Steve356 refers to. I tried as a last resort to pull the speakers very far out and run RoomPerfect and it helped. The slight boom was gone, but I would never survive telling my wife that this is where the speakers should stand. Furthermore, they lost their imposing bass.
I have been wondering what to do. Room treatment is one option, but I wonder if an alternative is to get a small subwoofer. Something like an 8” or 10” subwoofer. I do not want anything that feels like an earthquake. With 2 small children in the house and living in a terraced house, I like to keep thing civil.
Alternatively, I could try a bass trap in the corner to see how that it affects the bass.
The wall behind the speakers is made of aerated concrete.

Next step

Right now, I am slowly rearranging the living room to get the fullest out of the speakers. As you can see in my recent pictures, then the sofa in front of the speakers has been moved. It is now in the back. That requires everything to move slightly, including our dinning table. I have readjusted everything and working on ensuring my wife does not get any ideas about placing anything in front of the speakers, again.
I am in no hurry, I somehow hope Lyngdorf will release a slightly more powerful big brother to the TDAI-1120. On the other hand, it does seem powerful enough. The highest I had the volume was around -24.
But if it is next week or next month, FM-30 will be bought. I have already thrown the dices and my old system is sold. Now I just have to slowly find a way, on how to get the best out of FM-30. Bass trap, subwoofer, something third?
 

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Orobas

Well-known Member
That’s it folks. The end of my week long home demo is finished. I have returned everything last Monday and I have spent my time digesting the experience.

Thanks

I owe everyone who have participated in this thread, a big thanks. Your dedication and knowledge has been essential for me to reach the finish line. From the vague starting post, the thread has turned into a journey on finding the best speaker for me. The sparing I had with you all helped me finding my path through the other side.

While I appreciate everyone’s help I must point out @Orobas. He is an entity that has transcend humanity and turn into an encyclopaedia on speakers and their sounds. Without his advice I would never have noticed Gato Audio and their speakers.

Summary

I must conclude that the Gato Audio FM-30 is an amazing speaker. Anyone looking for a speaker with a well-defined and detailed lower end and an airy top, should give these speakers a listen.
I have compared the speakers to Sonus Faber Sonetto V, and I must say that the Sonetto V are entrancing in its vocals. I had my own doubts and concerns when I listened between the FM-30 and Sonetto V and switched often between them. (I had one of each speaker connected to the amplifer). The slight attenuation in the treble made me draw towards the Sonetto V and question whether FM-30 was the best choice.
But where the treble bewitched me, the lower midrange and bass failed the Sonetto V. It became apparent, when I moved away from changing between speakers often, and instead let the songs play for a while. The tight and well-defined lower end gave a body and completeness to FM-30 that Sonetto V totally lacked. In comparison the Sonetto V felt like a rubber that was being stretched. It lacked the coherency and balance that the FM-30 had.

Besides testing FM-30 and Sonetto V, I also had the enjoyment to test the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 amplifier. Here I must say to anyone out there. Given RoomPerfect a try. It is amazing how it can transform, no, enhance the sound of the speakers. In no way do you feel the character of the speakers are altered, instead the details are improved and there is a much better separation on the different parts of the song It is a digital amplifier and in my quest for a new speaker, I have spoken to a few people in shops. Many disregards or writes off anything digital.
I compared the TDAI-1120 with Gato Audio’s own DIA-400S, a class D amplifier. Where the DIA-400S had the bright airy treble, that I can recall hearing described by many who are against claas D, the Lyngdorf was different. With RoomPerfect the treble was warmer and fuller than that of DIA-400S.

Problems

It was a joy to test Gato Audio FM-30. The only problem was the deepest of bass. With the speakers just against the wall, RoomPerfect ensured that the bass became very authoritative and imposing. But in a few tracks, there is a slight boomy sound, just slight. An example is Bad Guy by Billie Eillish that @Steve356 refers to. I tried as a last resort to pull the speakers very far out and run RoomPerfect and it helped. The slight boom was gone, but I would never survive telling my wife that this is where the speakers should stand. Furthermore, they lost their imposing bass.
I have been wondering what to do. Room treatment is one option, but I wonder if an alternative is to get a small subwoofer. Something like an 8” or 10” subwoofer. I do not want anything that feels like an earthquake. With 2 small children in the house and living in a terraced house, I like to keep thing civil.
Alternatively, I could try a bass trap in the corner to see how that it affects the bass.
The wall behind the speakers is made of aerated concrete.

Next step

Right now, I am slowly rearranging the living room to get the fullest out of the speakers. As you can see in my recent pictures, then the sofa in front of the speakers has been moved. It is now in the back. That requires everything to move slightly, including our dinning table. I have readjusted everything and working on ensuring my wife does not get any ideas about placing anything in front of the speakers, again.
I am in no hurry, I somehow hope Lyngdorf will release a slightly more powerful big brother to the TDAI-1120. On the other hand, it does seem powerful enough. The highest I had the volume was around -24.
But if it is next week or next month, FM-30 will be bought. I have already thrown the dices and my old system is sold. Now I just have to slowly find a way, on how to get the best out of FM-30. Bass trap, subwoofer, something third?
A sub will not help with the bass issue.. this is a combination of amp / room acoustics.
The only reason I can see merit of running a sub.. is to set RP, go into the EQ.. and manually drop the bass output to the speakers and transferring to the sub.. but then you are going to get the same issues...

Solution re bass output on the FM-30 .. as i mentioned.. after RP is set.. go into the speaker eq settings and tweak the bass output manually if you can (i dont know if you can with Lyngdorf.. but other "av" style amps with similar room eq.. you can)

Bass trap behind the speakers is simple enough to make (lots of diy forums if you like to get your hands dirty) .. premade panels are relatively cheap .. but its the "looks" .. they are readily purchasable online.

Re the music used ... there are tracks out there that will make most speakers boom... do not look too deep into this .. UNLESS ... the bulk of the music you listen too does this to your speakers. If the bulk of what you usually listen too is good.. then you are ok :)

Me personally.. I would stand the speakers on a full size slab with some felt underneath to avoid scratches, and edit the eq on the amp to manually adjust the sound if required.

The issue .. is where the speakers are... regardless of what the wall is.. you have a big open room right the other side of that wall (the bedroom) there is where the boom is most likely to be the cause of it. And that .. is what needs to be cancelled out
 
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Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
You certainly did the due diligence thing to the very limit.

Unless you use the right mathematical modelling approach, room treatment is worse than a waste of time.

It is overwhelmingly more likely to cause more problems than it solves (if any).

The only way to correct the bass to the N’th degree is to use REW.

This, along with a UMIK-1 will give you all the information you need to tweak the response of RP to its last decimal.

Essentially you will be applying a curve to the room response before running RP and that will guarantee the response you require after RP.

It is possible to do the same after running RP, and measurements using REW. It would be up to you to decide which way you’d prefer.

As you certainly appear to enjoy the Gato speakers, and considering the expense involved in buying them and a Lyngdorf, the extra work would seem to be well worth the effort.

Good luck.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Ps, as Orobas says, a sub will not help in this situation.

It would if you decided to buy standmounts instead and used a high-ish cut off.

But with one sub, it would need to be in the centre of the speaker plane, underneath the tv.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Ps, as Orobas says, a sub will not help in this situation.

It would if you decided to buy standmounts instead and used a high-ish cut off.

But with one sub, it would need to be in the centre of the speaker plane, underneath the tv.
as i think i have now correctly identified.. the bass "boom" as coming from that room behind the wall where the tv is mounted... due to the wave length of bass notes and the fact that on a speaker driver (conventional) 80% or so of the sound actually comes from the rear of the cone.. not the front.. it is this rear reflection that is going into the room behind giving you the boost at set frequencies (harmonics)

A sat/sub setup would help to a degree.. but you would still be subject to this harmonic boost just at a different set of frequencies but can be rolled off somewhat via the sub.. a Sub with a floorstander with that room setup and the room behind will hinder more than help.

Room EQ Wizards will help find the resonances and where to back off tones on the RP's equaliser but this is time and money and not straight forward!!!!!

So yeah @Paul7777x has gone the next step on to what i identified from manually adjusting the EQ post RP and shown how it is done, of which I do by ear alone. I was not aware of REW so thanks Paul for the extra help there for Aslund :)
 

Aslund

Active Member
@Orobas @Paul7777x
For a moment I was happy with the prospect of getting the FM-30, thinking a few tweaking would properly go a long way. Now I feel like I got a solid punch in the gut. But first things first.
To unravel the secrets of the other room I have attached a few pictures. It is our oldest daughters room. There is a big cabinet on the other side.
So what is going on in my head is as follows:
  • Why does RoomPerfect not correct this problem?
  • How does a slab help migrate the problem when the issue is the wall?
  • How can you apply curve to the room response before RoomPerfect? Is everything not reset when performing RoomPerfect?
  • Is it really necessary to buy a usb microphone? Can you not buy a XLR to USB converter and use Lyngdorf's own microphone?
  • When you mention to do post EQ does that mean a custom voicing profile?
  • I trust your judgement regarding subwoofer. On the other hand with many dealers around me it should be easy to just test it out.

Room EQ Wizards will help find the resonances and where to back off tones on the RP's equaliser but this is time and money and not straight forward!!!!!
What additional expenses are there other than the microphone?

I love the FM-30 and I like to get the most out of them. I would be frustrated to invest these kind of money and then actively try to avoid songs and carefully select my playlist. Is there nothing to be done?
 

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Orobas

Well-known Member
@Orobas @Paul7777x
For a moment I was happy with the prospect of getting the FM-30, thinking a few tweaking would properly go a long way. Now I feel like I got a solid punch in the gut. But first things first.
To unravel the secrets of the other room I have attached a few pictures. It is our oldest daughters room. There is a big cabinet on the other side.
So what is going on in my head is as follows:
  • Why does RoomPerfect not correct this problem?
  • How does a slab help migrate the problem when the issue is the wall?
  • How can you apply curve to the room response before RoomPerfect? Is everything not reset when performing RoomPerfect?
  • Is it really necessary to buy a usb microphone? Can you not buy a XLR to USB converter and use Lyngdorf's own microphone?
  • When you mention to do post EQ does that mean a custom voicing profile?
  • I trust your judgement regarding subwoofer. On the other hand with many dealers around me it should be easy to just test it out.


What additional expenses are there other than the microphone?

I love the FM-30 and I like to get the most out of them. I would be frustrated to invest these kind of money and then actively try to avoid songs and carefully select my playlist. Is there nothing to be done?
Re solid punch in the gut. Apologies if it feels like this. You are actually very close to being ideal from your listening with just a few tweaks so do not be disheartened.. most of the edits needed are minor but fairly time consuming (on the basis that the majority of your music is causing this) .. if the majority of your music is not causing this boom.. then you are sorted!!!!

It was the mention of the boom along with those photos showing the wall and the bedroom behind which i don't believe has been shown before (apologies if it has and i missed it) which led to that revelation as to the cause of the boom.

The cabinet will be a big bass amplifier for sure... against the empty bedroom size. This is a common issue with a lot of stereos and av systems and even nightclubs, (where if you are sat in an alcove.. or going to the WC/cloackroom just outside.. that bass always seems to be much more boomy than actually on the dancefloor / by the speakers.)


Right lemme answer what i can and leave the other questions for @Paul7777x

  • Why does RoomPerfect not correct this problem?
From what i understand of room correction software like Dirac and Audyssey .. they merely send tones out via the speakers, listen to the reply via the mic.. and adjust for delay, volume and bass from the tones.. they do not work with actual dynamic music.

I am unsure on RP if this does the same.. but if it does.. that is why.
  • How does a slab help migrate the problem when the issue is the wall?
A slab is a decouple from the floor... so any reverb or reflection is solely cabinet / airspace. It will also tighten the bass up a little bit regardless.
  • When you mention to do post EQ does that mean a custom voicing profile?
Correct yes.. when i used to set up Audyssey, i would run the program till it got the settings it wanted and applied them.. I would then play different music and go into the speakers directly from the software and adjust volume / eq according to my ears to fine tune it
  • I trust your judgement regarding subwoofer. On the other hand with many dealers around me it should be easy to just test it out.
A sub will have very little infill for a floorstander.. especially one like the Gato or the Sonetto V and would only benefit from it when using it as AV to watch a film and need the explosive or that extended seperate low end.. Most subs typically run around 30-40Hz once dialled in .. at their low end (yes i know some subs will run sub 18Hz....) but this is typically speaking. This is simply adding to the low end of the floorstanders.. not solving the low end issue... you would have to dial the Gatos right the way back on the bass to use a sub and then it will sound awful.

Hope that makes sense ? A sub is there to fill in the bottom / missing bass in a stereo setup and to provide explosive effects in AV setups ONLY .. it is not made to take over the full bass range of a floorstander .. only for a standmount where it tapers off around that 45-65hz mark
 
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Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Adding a curve, or, as you would be doing, removing a peak, is done in the ‘Advanced’ section of the Lyngdorfs set up menu.

Whilst all of the preset curves would be ignored when running RP this one is not.

The idea is to bring the bass peak (or any other frequency peak) under better control before RP does its stuff, thereby relieving the Lyngdorf of deciding how much of the peak to leave alone.

The custom voicing is different in that it is done after RP.

Also, I’ve found the custom curves, in practice, merely adequate for vague and guesswork judgements. When setting up fast and boost free bass frequencies very good measurement is essential (if there is an issue at all), you need to know where to place the corrections very exactly.

Sometimes, especially with a sub in each corner it is not necessary, it’s why Lyngdorf stress this kind of set up as preferable.

As you cannot do that, then measurements and curve fiddling is the way to go.

To my mind it is better to lessen or remove the issue before it has to be masked by a custom voicing. That means measuring the speakers in position (using REW) and getting the best response you can using the ‘pre’ RP curve.

The reason you need a new mic is because REW is set up to work with a limited number of professionally calibrated mics with their own calibration profile downloaded.

This makes REWs measurements very accurate. It is not set up to use the Lyngdorf mic which, in any case, does not come with a calibration file.

I misspoke myself earlier, a good quality sub will add additional power to the lower frequencies as well as relieve the Lyngdorf of the power hungry chore of the lowest frequencies.

In fact I’m of the opinion that almost no floorstander can reach the bass a sub can. Certainly not without big, dedicated drivers and whopping current.

A sub, or two, is a great idea, especially when there is something of the calibre of the Lyngdorf to integrate it/them.

(I had assumed you meant the sub to somehow cure the bass problem you perceive in your room, which is unlikely, as it will add deeper bass and possibly exacerbate the current problem).

However, if you intend the sub to take over from the bass duties of the Gatos, from say 80Hz or a bit lower and the sub is in the centre of the two speakers, that may well improve the situation as the deep bass will be coming from one point and that point will (obviously) have changed from the current position.

It will also be further from one side wall and closer to the centre of the room which in itself will reduce sub 80Hz peaks.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Ps, the only expense other than the UMIK-1 is the few hours it takes to get familiar with the REW software.

But for your purposes it is not as difficult as it first appears. You only need the basic knowledge of how to make the measurements and read them well enough to transfer the information gained to alter the frequency response in the Lyngdorf accordingly.

REW is fascinating in its own right though.
 

DT79

Well-known Member
That’s it folks. The end of my week long home demo is finished. I have returned everything last Monday and I have spent my time digesting the experience.

Thanks

I owe everyone who have participated in this thread, a big thanks. Your dedication and knowledge has been essential for me to reach the finish line. From the vague starting post, the thread has turned into a journey on finding the best speaker for me. The sparing I had with you all helped me finding my path through the other side.

While I appreciate everyone’s help I must point out @Orobas. He is an entity that has transcend humanity and turn into an encyclopaedia on speakers and their sounds. Without his advice I would never have noticed Gato Audio and their speakers.

Summary

I must conclude that the Gato Audio FM-30 is an amazing speaker. Anyone looking for a speaker with a well-defined and detailed lower end and an airy top, should give these speakers a listen.
I have compared the speakers to Sonus Faber Sonetto V, and I must say that the Sonetto V are entrancing in its vocals. I had my own doubts and concerns when I listened between the FM-30 and Sonetto V and switched often between them. (I had one of each speaker connected to the amplifer). The slight attenuation in the treble made me draw towards the Sonetto V and question whether FM-30 was the best choice.
But where the treble bewitched me, the lower midrange and bass failed the Sonetto V. It became apparent, when I moved away from changing between speakers often, and instead let the songs play for a while. The tight and well-defined lower end gave a body and completeness to FM-30 that Sonetto V totally lacked. In comparison the Sonetto V felt like a rubber that was being stretched. It lacked the coherency and balance that the FM-30 had.

Besides testing FM-30 and Sonetto V, I also had the enjoyment to test the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 amplifier. Here I must say to anyone out there. Given RoomPerfect a try. It is amazing how it can transform, no, enhance the sound of the speakers. In no way do you feel the character of the speakers are altered, instead the details are improved and there is a much better separation on the different parts of the song It is a digital amplifier and in my quest for a new speaker, I have spoken to a few people in shops. Many disregards or writes off anything digital.
I compared the TDAI-1120 with Gato Audio’s own DIA-400S, a class D amplifier. Where the DIA-400S had the bright airy treble, that I can recall hearing described by many who are against claas D, the Lyngdorf was different. With RoomPerfect the treble was warmer and fuller than that of DIA-400S.

Problems

It was a joy to test Gato Audio FM-30. The only problem was the deepest of bass. With the speakers just against the wall, RoomPerfect ensured that the bass became very authoritative and imposing. But in a few tracks, there is a slight boomy sound, just slight. An example is Bad Guy by Billie Eillish that @Steve356 refers to. I tried as a last resort to pull the speakers very far out and run RoomPerfect and it helped. The slight boom was gone, but I would never survive telling my wife that this is where the speakers should stand. Furthermore, they lost their imposing bass.
I have been wondering what to do. Room treatment is one option, but I wonder if an alternative is to get a small subwoofer. Something like an 8” or 10” subwoofer. I do not want anything that feels like an earthquake. With 2 small children in the house and living in a terraced house, I like to keep thing civil.
Alternatively, I could try a bass trap in the corner to see how that it affects the bass.
The wall behind the speakers is made of aerated concrete.

Next step

Right now, I am slowly rearranging the living room to get the fullest out of the speakers. As you can see in my recent pictures, then the sofa in front of the speakers has been moved. It is now in the back. That requires everything to move slightly, including our dinning table. I have readjusted everything and working on ensuring my wife does not get any ideas about placing anything in front of the speakers, again.
I am in no hurry, I somehow hope Lyngdorf will release a slightly more powerful big brother to the TDAI-1120. On the other hand, it does seem powerful enough. The highest I had the volume was around -24.
But if it is next week or next month, FM-30 will be bought. I have already thrown the dices and my old system is sold. Now I just have to slowly find a way, on how to get the best out of FM-30. Bass trap, subwoofer, something third?
Where have you got the idea that the 1120 lacks power? If the 1120 is the same as my 2170 then I think it will go up to to +12db. So if you‘ve only pushed it as high as -24db that means it can go >4 times louder.

The Lyngdorf’s work differently to a conventional analogue amp, the volume is completely linear so can use all of the available range.
 

Aslund

Active Member
Re solid punch in the gut. Apologies if it feels like this. You are actually very close to being ideal from your listening with just a few tweaks so do not be disheartened.. most of the edits needed are minor but fairly time consuming (on the basis that the majority of your music is causing this) .. if the majority of your music is not causing this boom.. then you are sorted!!!!

It was the mention of the boom along with those photos showing the wall and the bedroom behind which i don't believe has been shown before (apologies if it has and i missed it) which led to that revelation as to the cause of the boom.

The cabinet will be a big bass amplifier for sure... against the empty bedroom size. This is a common issue with a lot of stereos and av systems and even nightclubs, (where if you are sat in an alcove.. or going to the WC/cloackroom just outside.. that bass always seems to be much more boomy than actually on the dancefloor / by the speakers.)


Right lemme answer what i can and leave the other questions for @Paul7777x

  • Why does RoomPerfect not correct this problem?
From what i understand of room correction software like Dirac and Audyssey .. they merely send tones out via the speakers, listen to the reply via the mic.. and adjust for delay, volume and bass from the tones.. they do not work with actual dynamic music.

I am unsure on RP if this does the same.. but if it does.. that is why.
  • How does a slab help migrate the problem when the issue is the wall?
A slab is a decouple from the floor... so any reverb or reflection is solely cabinet / airspace. It will also tighten the bass up a little bit regardless.
  • When you mention to do post EQ does that mean a custom voicing profile?
Correct yes.. when i used to set up Audyssey, i would run the program till it got the settings it wanted and applied them.. I would then play different music and go into the speakers directly from the software and adjust volume / eq according to my ears to fine tune it
  • I trust your judgement regarding subwoofer. On the other hand with many dealers around me it should be easy to just test it out.
A sub will have very little infill for a floorstander.. especially one like the Gato or the Sonetto V and would only benefit from it when using it as AV to watch a film and need the explosive or that extended seperate low end.. Most subs typically run around 30-40Hz once dialled in .. at their low end (yes i know some subs will run sub 18Hz....) but this is typically speaking. This is simply adding to the low end of the floorstanders.. not solving the low end issue... you would have to dial the Gatos right the way back on the bass to use a sub and then it will sound awful.

Hope that makes sense ? A sub is there to fill in the bottom / missing bass in a stereo setup and to provide explosive effects in AV setups ONLY .. it is not made to take over the full bass range of a floorstander .. only for a standmount where it tapers off around that 45-65hz mark
Since I plan to have the speakers for many many year I guess some work with dialing them in is not a problem. As long as the prospect is not pitch black :D
Regarding the slab. Would a granite cutting board sufficient? 20 euro each and 40cm x 30cm x 1.5cm in size.
I feel @Paul7777x nailed it regarding my ideas about the subwoofer. I feel the speakers perform the best when they are close to the wall, but it leaves a slight boomy sound in a few tracks. How much of my music is affected by this I sadly do not know. My available time was constricted (Wife, children and dog). But if I can seperate the lowest bass notes to a subwoofer, then I can place the speakers close to the wall and move the subwoofer a little bit around to find the optimum placement. I would of cause prefer to avoid using a subwoofer, purely for aesthetics reason, but I like to keep my options open.
The more solutions I have at hand the more relaxed and confident will I be in purchasing the FM-30.

Adding a curve, or, as you would be doing, removing a peak, is done in the ‘Advanced’ section of the Lyngdorfs set up menu.

Whilst all of the preset curves would be ignored when running RP this one is not.

The idea is to bring the bass peak (or any other frequency peak) under better control before RP does its stuff, thereby relieving the Lyngdorf of deciding how much of the peak to leave alone.

The custom voicing is different in that it is done after RP.

Also, I’ve found the custom curves, in practice, merely adequate for vague and guesswork judgements. When setting up fast and boost free bass frequencies very good measurement is essential (if there is an issue at all), you need to know where to place the corrections very exactly.

Sometimes, especially with a sub in each corner it is not necessary, it’s why Lyngdorf stress this kind of set up as preferable.

As you cannot do that, then measurements and curve fiddling is the way to go.

To my mind it is better to lessen or remove the issue before it has to be masked by a custom voicing. That means measuring the speakers in position (using REW) and getting the best response you can using the ‘pre’ RP curve.

The reason you need a new mic is because REW is set up to work with a limited number of professionally calibrated mics with their own calibration profile downloaded.

This makes REWs measurements very accurate. It is not set up to use the Lyngdorf mic which, in any case, does not come with a calibration file.

I misspoke myself earlier, a good quality sub will add additional power to the lower frequencies as well as relieve the Lyngdorf of the power hungry chore of the lowest frequencies.

In fact I’m of the opinion that almost no floorstander can reach the bass a sub can. Certainly not without big, dedicated drivers and whopping current.

A sub, or two, is a great idea, especially when there is something of the calibre of the Lyngdorf to integrate it/them.

(I had assumed you meant the sub to somehow cure the bass problem you perceive in your room, which is unlikely, as it will add deeper bass and possibly exacerbate the current problem).

However, if you intend the sub to take over from the bass duties of the Gatos, from say 80Hz or a bit lower and the sub is in the centre of the two speakers, that may well improve the situation as the deep bass will be coming from one point and that point will (obviously) have changed from the current position.

It will also be further from one side wall and closer to the centre of the room which in itself will reduce sub 80Hz peaks.
Where exactly is this advance menu you are mentioning? Do you have a picture or a screenshot of it, because I don't recall seeing anything like that and sadly I do not have the TDAI-1120 anymore.
I would love to fiddle and play with this and see how it affects the RoomPerfect result :D
It is too bad that I can not use the Lyngdorf microphone. That would have been brilliant. But it seems it is often on sale for as low as 100 euro. That could be a fun little investment to get some actual data on how the speakers behave. I have not seen any frequency response curves on FM-30 but I do know there are reviews planned during the winter season.
You hit the nail exactly with regarding to the sub. My own idea is a 60-70Hz crossover and basically make a 4 way speaker. I see many benefits, but the question is how to find a subwoofer the complements the details and agility of FM-30.
As mentioned before the back of the wall is made of aerated concrete (I hope it is the correct word) but the left side is solid brick. So I wonder if I should lend a Lyngdorf BW-2 sub and place it at the side to use the brick wall to enhance the bass output. Otherwise I am thinking about something like Dynaudio 18s or KEF KC62 or KF92. All twin drive subwoofers that should reduce resonance. I am thinking these can sit between the speakers.
 

Aslund

Active Member
Where have you got the idea that the 1120 lacks power? If the 1120 is the same as my 2170 then I think it will go up to to +12db. So if you‘ve only pushed it as high as -24db that means it can go >4 times louder.

The Lyngdorf’s work differently to a conventional analogue amp, the volume is completely linear so can use all of the available range.
Did I mention that the TDAI-1120 lacks power? I do write it seems powerful enough.
Consciously I know everything seems fine but for the last 15 years I had a setup (Dali 850 + NAD 114/216), where the slightest turn on the knob would make music blast out of the speaker. I never had the knob higher than half way and with the TDAI-1120 it has to be more than half way for a decent volume level. It is a mental barrier that is not removed just like that. Damn human behaviour is tricky. Denial is easy and acceptance is hard. :D
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Since I plan to have the speakers for many many year I guess some work with dialing them in is not a problem. As long as the prospect is not pitch black :D
Regarding the slab. Would a granite cutting board sufficient? 20 euro each and 40cm x 30cm x 1.5cm in size.
I feel @Paul7777x nailed it regarding my ideas about the subwoofer. I feel the speakers perform the best when they are close to the wall, but it leaves a slight boomy sound in a few tracks. How much of my music is affected by this I sadly do not know. My available time was constricted. But if I can seperate the lowest bass notes to a subwoofer I can place the speakers close to the wall and move the subwoofer a little bit around to find the optimum placement. I would of cause prefer to avoid using a subwoofer, purely for aesthetics reason, but I like to keep my options open.
The more solutions I have at hand the more relaxed and confident will I be in purchasing the FM-30.


Where exactly is this advance menu you are mentioning? Do you have a picture or a screenshot of it, because I don't recall seeing anything like that and sadly I do not have the TDAI-1120 anymore.
I would love to fiddle and play with this and see how it affects the RoomPerfect result :D
It is too bad that I can not use the Lyngdorf microphone. That would have been brilliant. But it seems it is often on sale for as low as 100 euro. That could be a fun little investment to get some actual data on how the speakers behave. I have not seen any frequency response curves on FM-30 but I do know there are reviews planned during the winter season.
You hit the nail exactly with regarding to the sub. My own idea is a 60-70Hz crossover and basically make a 4 way speaker. I see many benefits but the question is how to find a subwoofer the complements the details and agility of FM-30.
As mentioned before the back of the wall is made of aerated concrete (I hope it is the correct word) but the left side is solid brick. So I wonder if I should lend a Lyngdorf BW-2 sub and place it at the side to use the brick wall to enhance the bass output. Otherwise I am thinking about something like Dynaudio 18s or KEF KC62 or KF92. All twin drive subwoofers that should reduce resonance.
Hi Aslund!

Firstly apologies for the opposing thoughts on the subwoofer use to what Paul mentioned..

Despite having an REL sub myself.. this is only used for films for me.. I very very rarely use it for music. My own personal opinion is leave the music to the amp and speakers and i must stress.. this is "just my preference"

Re the slab... again... this was just a thought re the bass control you did with the Sonetto... a slab will always help "a little" with the bass (although results will vary speaker to speaker) the slab should always be big enough to provide a solid platform for the speaker with plenty of clearance for the feet to provide stability (rather than the feet right on the edge of the slab where they could be knocked off)

So yes.. that would be fine ("if" you wanted to go the extra mile) please note that ... "IF" .. Do not expect major results but it might help tighten things.. if in doubt.. leave it out and re-visit later to see if one is needed.
 

Aslund

Active Member
Just listened to that track via headphones and via my speakers (my family think I've finally lost the plot on music :laugh::rotfl:). I hear a slight boominess in the bass on both, so it might be the recording. To judge bass quality properly, I think you might want to use some other recordings with maybe a more natural bass.

If you really want to listen to something modern with loads of bass, I tend to use Bad Guy by Billie Eillish. That track should hit hard, push your speakers (and room) with a large image that extends beyond the width of speakers, but at the same time still sound reasonably dynamic and clean.

In case it's of interest, whenever I check for bass boom and quality in various listening demos and sessions at home, I tend to use one album nowadays to start with -- The Hunter by Jennifer Warnes. There are at least 4 tracks on that album that will tell me all I need to know about the system I'm listening to and whether I then want to try other material on the system or move on.
Sorry for not really addressing you post before @Steve356. I really appreciate your effort during my last day of trial and your many good inputs. I am especially happy that you listened to the track and faced your family deep concern for your mental well-being :)
It help a lot knowing that the problem was not the speakers but the recording.

The Billie Eillish was a really good tester and it actually sounded fantastic eventhough there was the slight hint of boomy sound. When I did my last test where the speaker where pulled further out, then the bass recessed a bit and it sounded like the bass was a bit like "whoop whoop".

Your other album I sadly did not get a chance to listen to. But could you please detail which 4 tracks you normally use? Thanks.
 

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