Choosing new speakers

Orobas

Well-known Member
What I wrote in #51 was not my own experience, but just translation of the highlights from the magasin Lyd & Billede.
My own experience with Sonetto V was a lovely treble and midrange, but lacking bass. I really enjoyed them, it was only the bass response that left me waiting for more. I don't know if this is due to the room or something else. I will see for myself when I test them here at home.

But how do you exactly propose me to test them? Should I place them side by side? What about Lyngdorf and RoomPerfect?
If the speakers are side by side, does it not give a disadvantage to the pair with the speaker closest to the wall corner?


The Sonetto are gorgeous. But so are the Gato Audio FM-30. The built quality seems a notch higher than Sonetto V.
Re testing.. you have answered that one yourself by identifying the issues with the side by side... you simply run 1 x fm next to the wall side and 1 x v out in the open.. then swap them over so they both get the wall side.

As for the Lyngdorf.. the same.. with the RP on.. with the RP off and compare with the DIA-400s :)
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
What I wrote in #51 was not my own experience, but just translation of the highlights from the magasin Lyd & Billede.
My own experience with Sonetto V was a lovely treble and midrange, but lacking bass. I really enjoyed them, it was only the bass response that left me waiting for more. I don't know if this is due to the room or something else. I will see for myself when I test them here at home.

But how do you exactly propose me to test them? Should I place them side by side? What about Lyngdorf and RoomPerfect?
If the speakers are side by side, does it not give a disadvantage to the pair with the speaker closest to the wall corner?


The Sonetto are gorgeous. But so are the Gato Audio FM-30. The built quality seems a notch higher than Sonetto V.

Indeed, both are serious lookers.

I’d have either on that basis.

I’d be surprised indeed if the 11020 did not perk up the bass rather substantially with the Sonettos.

My Trios were transformed with the Lyngdorf.

The bass was always fast and had negligible overhang, which I vastly prefer to any sort of ‘over fullness’, but no one would ever accuse them of being bass monsters.

Now the bass is even more fleet, but has an extra projection that makes them sound bigger even than they are.

It certainly takes a bit of positional experimentation to get RP right, but in my case it’s made my lust for better speakers an academic exercise.

To better them in any aspect will take more cash than I have.

I’m saving, but it’s going to cost me a small fortune to make it worthwhile.
 

Aslund

Active Member
Re testing.. you have answered that one yourself by identifying the issues with the side by side... you simply run 1 x fm next to the wall side and 1 x v out in the open.. then swap them over so they both get the wall side.

As for the Lyngdorf.. the same.. with the RP on.. with the RP off and compare with the DIA-400s :)
I doubt I have time for such intense testing with two children who are 2 weeks old and 4 years old plus a dog that occasionally needs to be walked.

I need to manage my time as well as possible. Sounds like you can do RoomPerfect with different speakers and then do left/right shift to see how they compare, right? Only problem is that the loudness isn't the same during cslibration process. Right?
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Ps, it’s important to get the Room Perfect set up right.

It’s certainly simple, but it’s worth watching this video just to be sure.

 

Orobas

Well-known Member
I doubt I have time for such intense testing with two children who are 2 weeks old and 4 years old plus a dog that occasionally needs to be walked.

I need to manage my time as well as possible. Sounds like you can do RoomPerfect with different speakers and then do left/right shift to see how they compare, right? Only problem is that the loudness isn't the same during cslibration process. Right?
Room perfect is the only sticking point as i do not know enough about it.. @Paul7777x has that covered though.

You are correct in the calibration side though due to the different sensitivities.. but i would "guess" that RP will try and balance them as best it can...
 

Aslund

Active Member
@Orobas
I got the DIA-400S and got it hooked up. Sadly it was without the network module so I had to use my TV as source (Android TV) through Toslink.
I have listened to a couple of songs and there is definitely more bass presence with DIA-400S than TDAI-1120. I would not call it earthshaking different but there is more, also at lower volumes.
I am really really bad at these tests side by side, but it seems to me that the DIA-400S has a slight more round bass sound. While the TDAI-1120 is just a bit more direct and forward. Can't explain it properly.

When it comes to the treble and mid I hardly notice a difference, maybe a slight slight advantage to TDAI-1120. I sense an ever so slight better seperation, but it is really hard for me to seperate them and I feel so incompetent for not noticing the difference better.

But one thing I did notice as I compared them. At first I thought that RoomPerfect was redundant as DIA-400S sounded fine, but but but. It came to me attention, while listening to DIA-400S, that the sound is preceived as coming close from the left speaker (the one near the wall corner). With TDAI-1120 and RoomPerfect I can not tell the speakers apart and they are perfectly balanced.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
You might try using the analogue outputs of the 1120 into a line input on the 400s.

Re-doing RP in that configuration will help you decide if you need the extra power; not an ideal comparison as one amp is not simply a larger version of the other, but it will give you a better insight into RP and in the effect your room and positioning is having.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
@Orobas
I got the DIA-400S and got it hooked up. Sadly it was without the network module so I had to use my TV as source (Android TV) through Toslink.
I have listened to a couple of songs and there is definitely more bass presence with DIA-400S than TDAI-1120. I would not call it earthshaking different but there is more, also at lower volumes.
I am really really bad at these tests side by side, but it seems to me that the DIA-400S has a slight more round bass sound. While the TDAI-1120 is just a bit more direct and forward. Can't explain it properly.

When it comes to the treble and mid I hardly notice a difference, maybe a slight slight advantage to TDAI-1120. I sense an ever so slight better seperation, but it is really hard for me to seperate them and I feel so incompetent for not noticing the difference better.

But one thing I did notice as I compared them. At first I thought that RoomPerfect was redundant as DIA-400S sounded fine, but but but. It came to me attention, while listening to DIA-400S, that the sound is preceived as coming close from the left speaker (the one near the wall corner). With TDAI-1120 and RoomPerfect I can not tell the speakers apart and they are perfectly balanced.
With the Gato amp attached.. you are essentially listening to an amp that was built for the speakers and as such most likely "voiced" to them. (What we would typically call source direct)
With the additional power, you will get more presence as the volume increases. As it is a much better quality of amp, this will be transients, stop/start of drivers timing and overall sound .
As for separation of channels... this will be speaker placement based with the Gato amp... where the Lyngdorf can tune the balance. This is common with some fixed amps in that they are sometimes a little off on their respective gains per channel but is easily fixed by speaker placement.

Remember.. you are listening only for what sounds better to your ears.. dont look too deep into it. At low volumes the amps will do odd things... at high volumes the amps show what they can do properly. If you want low volume and pure sound... you go class A.... sudgden or valve for example..

What did the lyngdorf sound like with RP off against the gato amp?
 

Aslund

Active Member
@Paul7777x @Orobas
I must admit I feel a bit in deep water right now with the FM-30. I don't know if the increased bass comes from the amplifier or reflection from the corner. I feel the sound is slightly better with DIA-400S. It is in the subtleties but then I have the increased volume on the corner speaker.
Is there anyway to balance this without RoomPerfect?
The TDAI-1120 also sounds fine. But the volume has to go quite high up even at moderate listening levels, (60-70%). I could add a power amplifier to line out, but does it not defeat the digital design of the Lyngdorf amplifier?

I really like the FM-30 in sound, design and size. But I feel a bit shipwrecked regarding amplifer with no knowledge or experience to move forward.

I might put FM-30 away and setup Sonetto V to get a little break and see how that one behaves.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
It would be a good idea to have a listen to the Sonetto now I’d say; otherwise you’re in danger of brain overload.

Have a listen to the Sonettos today and perhaps back to FM30s tomorrow (Assuming the must still be returned on Friday?).

It’ll give you a break from concentration.

Pa, what are you using as a source for the amplifiers?
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Adding a power amp to the preouts on the 1120 would indeed miss out most of the digital goodness of the 1120 as a speaker driver and would add to the price significantly (for a power amp of sufficient quality and horsepower).

As for hitting 60/70% of the 1120s total volume, I’m not sure what you mean... what number is it on the Lyngdorfs app?

And I’m not sure if that is truly relevant as long as the Lyngdorfs maximum output is too loud for you and your room: there is no need for surplus volume that will not be used.

And in any case you might find the SFs to be exactly what you want. 👍
 
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Aslund

Active Member
Adding a power amp to the preouts on the 1120 would indeed miss out most of the digital goodness of the 1120 as a speaker driver and would add to the price significantly (for a power amp of sufficient quality and horsepower).

As for hitting 60/70% of the 1120s total volume, I’m not sure what you mean... what number is it on the Lyngdorfs app?

And I’m not sure if that is truly relevant as long as the Lyngdorfs maximum output is too loud for you and your room: there is no need for surplus volume that will not be used.

And in any case you. Ishtar find the SFs to be exactly what you want. 👍
I think it was around 30 to 32 on the Lyngdorf app with FM-30. The 60% to 70% refers how far the volume slider has to be pulled.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Are you using this screen as your volume control?

If you mean say, -30 to -25 or so, then there is still tons to go and it won’t be a problem.

43523079-8E1A-4B07-B971-24325D17BF2B.png
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
It’s been awhile since reading this tread, but I wouldn’t put much stock in if the amplifier volume control is 60 dB or 30 dB. Speaker sensitivity can have significant effect. Every volume control is also differently designed on every amplifier. Some need less gain, some not.

Even so if @Aslund is in doubt if the 1120 has enough power then perhaps change it to more power Lyngdorf amplifier or stick with the Gato amp.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
@Paul7777x @Orobas
I must admit I feel a bit in deep water right now with the FM-30. I don't know if the increased bass comes from the amplifier or reflection from the corner. I feel the sound is slightly better with DIA-400S. It is in the subtleties but then I have the increased volume on the corner speaker.
Is there anyway to balance this without RoomPerfect?
The TDAI-1120 also sounds fine. But the volume has to go quite high up even at moderate listening levels, (60-70%). I could add a power amplifier to line out, but does it not defeat the digital design of the Lyngdorf amplifier?

I really like the FM-30 in sound, design and size. But I feel a bit shipwrecked regarding amplifer with no knowledge or experience to move forward.

I might put FM-30 away and setup Sonetto V to get a little break and see how that one behaves.
Sounds like you are trying to dig too deep into details.. this is just a demo remember to see which sounds better to your ears in the comfort of your own home.. minor details like positioning, toe in/out to balance center are just that .. minor details.
You should be plug, play, sit, close eyes.. chill and listen and enjoy at different volumes and genres.. then swap and repeat :)
 

Aslund

Active Member
So I manage to finish my Sonetto V setup. It was nice to get a break away from the FM-30. I did a RoomPerfect calibration too.
I listened a little bit to some tracks and the bass is much more pronounced than when I heard them at the dealer. On the other hand the treble seemed a little bit less... warm? I felt the treble was not as much forwarding as at the dealer. The dealer was using a Roksan K3 to drive the speakers. Don't know if that makes the difference.
It certainly sounds nice but it also feels like a little bit of their magic is not exactly as I remember from my audition. I need to listen some more tomorrow.
I tried them sortly also on the DIA-400S and I just noticed that neither speaker stood out. So the downfiring bass-port has its advantages.

Are you using this screen as your volume control?

If you mean say, -30 to -25 or so, then there is still tons to go and it won’t be a problem.

View attachment 1592729
Thanks for the input @Paul7777x . This is exactly a problem for me to determine. Some people tell me to get a big amplifier to have enough headroom for any spikes or sudden changes in the music. So I am at a loss how high you can push the TDAI-1120 before sacrificing the sound quality.

It’s been awhile since reading this tread, but I wouldn’t put much stock in if the amplifier volume control is 60 dB or 30 dB. Speaker sensitivity can have significant effect. Every volume control is also differently designed on every amplifier. Some need less gain, some not.

Even so if @Aslund is in doubt if the 1120 has enough power then perhaps change it to more power Lyngdorf amplifier or stick with the Gato amp.
Thank you for joining me again @Helix Hifi :) My problem is here that the next Lyngdorf amplifier is the TDAI-3400, which is 4000 euro extra. That will really hurt my wallet.
If I use a Gato Audio amplifier then I will have problems with the wall corner. The speaker closest to the wall corner will be more loud ruining the stereo image.

Sounds like you are trying to dig too deep into details.. this is just a demo remember to see which sounds better to your ears in the comfort of your own home.. minor details like positioning, toe in/out to balance center are just that .. minor details.
You should be plug, play, sit, close eyes.. chill and listen and enjoy at different volumes and genres.. then swap and repeat :)
Again it is my lack of experience. I have no idea how much effect these techniques has on sound quality. But I will try to do as you say :)
 
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Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
I feel your pain. Hifi is fun, but it’s also nightmare. Speaking of power handling. The current speakers you have should with the current amplifier give enough head room so you feel the soundstage is consistent. It should sound dynamic on both loud volume and low volume.

Speaking of more power, audition the Hegel H190. If you can live without RP.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
To begin with I’d try toeing in the SFs a little bit more and re-running RP.

The Lyngdorfs room correction will only subtract room anomalies, it will not add to any frequency deficits as perceived (so to speak).

As for power availability I’m of the opinion that tons too much is preferable to a fraction too little.

However, the 1120 has copious quantities of current and is supremely unlikely to run out.

I’m running the 1120 at between -30 and -24(ish) depending on the source and my mood.

If I were to increase that to -14 then it is preposterously too loud.

However, what you may mean is power in reserve, that is current available for massive music peaks and (simultaneously) low speaker Ohm level?

At -20 there is still 40 to go. I don’t think for a moment that the 1120 is underpowered in your situation if -30 ish is your comfortable volume.

On a different note, the problem with demos is that, although they are essential, they are rarely long enough (weeks) to ascertain how you feel about the speakers and amps.

It takes a good while for a brain to shift gears between something as complex as music reproduction and to become accustomed to what is happening as a whole rather than concentrating on aspects.

That’s even more true when rushed and demoing more than one new component at a time.
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
Try and play an album with deep bass tone. Deadmau as example. Their recordings are quite good. Daft Punk also. Is the bass deep, precise or not.
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
You’ll hear it pretty quickly if the soundstage collapses. Most mortals only need around 100 watts. It’s more then enough for most people, but only if the amplifier is of great quality.
 

Ugg10

Distinguished Member
Have you tried any of the Lyngdorf sound profiles, one of these may help bring back the treble a little more.
 

andycc72

Active Member
I’m running the 1120 at between -30 and -24(ish) depending on the source and my mood.

If I were to increase that to -14 then it is preposterously too loud.
For me it's quite different. When streaming -21 is on average about 70db so -30 is hardly audible (except on newer recordings). When using the TT -14 is a about 70ish db.

The sound is fine and there's plenty left in the tank on the rare occasion I get to play it loud. I haven't been able to play it so loud that I am aware of any noticeable distortion
 
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Aslund

Active Member
@andycc72 @Paul7777x
Thank you so much for your input. I have sought that kind of information for properly a month now. How high can you push the TDAI-1120 and still expect good results? It seems I worried for nothing. I really appreciate this information :) That saves me 4000 euro :D

Try and play an album with deep bass tone. Deadmau as example. Their recordings are quite good. Daft Punk also. Is the bass deep, precise or not.
I feel your pain. Hifi is fun, but it’s also nightmare. Speaking of power handling. The current speakers you have should with the current amplifier give enough head room so you feel the soundstage is consistent. It should sound dynamic on both loud volume and low volume.

Speaking of more power, audition the Hegel H190. If you can live without RP.
I actually like to play the Daft Punk medley from Pentatonix. I feel it is interesting to listen how natural the bass sounds given it is acapella music.
My local HifiKlubben actually has a H190 on display, but I should properly control myself otherwise I will have to much equipment and too little time :D
Have you tried any of the Lyngdorf sound profiles, one of these may help bring back the treble a little more.
Sadly I have not had time for that. I properly will not have for such details, but I will keep it in my mind :)
 

Aslund

Active Member
Another update on my home demo. Yesterday I setup the Sonus Faber Sonetto V and found out that they where not so fussy about speaker placement as Gato Audio FM-30.
Today I got curious. How much better is the Gato Audio DIA-400S amplifer than the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120?
I tested it by connecting the DIA-400S to my TV by Toslink, removing any sound processing and used the Tidal app on the TV.
The TDAI-1120 was connected to Tidal through Chromecast.
The speakers where already calibrated with RoomPerfect and to make things most fair I connected the speaker closest to the corner to the TDAI-1120. The other speaker was connected to the DIA-400. I then switched between playing music on each amplifier to see if I could hear any difference.
The result surpriced me. In details and separation of sound the TDAI-1120 outclassed the DIA-400S. The difference was subtle but yet clear if you listened closely. The soundstage really opened up a notch more on TDAI-1120.
On tracks with a bit of bass the DIA-400S was a little bit boomy while the TDAI-1120 ensured a tighter and more controlled bass.
Another difference was in the midrange. The voices where more airy and light with DIA-400S while the TDAI-1120 had more fullness to the voices and warmth, I think it is what your pro's would describe it. :)
 

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