Choosing new speakers

gava

Active Member
The world of the audiophile is positively overflowing with Veblen goods.

In blind listening tests it's really hard to tell apart modern decent amps with similar power ratings at vastly different price points.

Unblinded of course the differences are very obvious to audiophiles. :D
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
How did you come to the conclusion that with RP removed the 1120 is £1200 amp??

Genuine question as I’m interested in how you would know this and what you based it on. My knowledge is limited at best so an genuinely interested.
It was a figurative guestimate.... The electronics and room perfect dsp is what makes the Lyngdorf what it is... take the electronics out and just leave the amp.. and to be honest .. i reckon that price point is about where it stacks generously. Can the Cyrus ONE Cast hold it's own against the 1120.. straight amp v straight amp.. nope.. the Cyrus is the loser here.. Can the 1120 without using its room perfect match a Hegel h90 on the same speakers.. not a chance. (and before you say anything.. i know the hegel is £1600 and not £1200) but price wise for amps.. £1500 is about where things get musically very interesting
 

andycc72

Active Member
It was a figurative guestimate.... The electronics and room perfect dsp is what makes the Lyngdorf what it is... take the electronics out and just leave the amp.. and to be honest .. i reckon that price point is about where it stacks generously. Can the Cyrus ONE Cast hold it's own against the 1120.. straight amp v straight amp.. nope.. the Cyrus is the loser here.. Can the 1120 without using its room perfect match a Hegel h90 on the same speakers.. not a chance. (and before you say anything.. i know the hegel is £1600 and not £1200) but price wise for amps.. £1500 is about where things get musically very interesting
I had a Cyrus One (with Node2i) before switching to the 1120 and to my ears the 1120 was better even without RP activated. Although for the price point the One (not the Cast as I’ve never heard one so can’t speak on it ) is a cracking Amp.
 
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andycc72

Active Member
The Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 measured extremely poorly on another forum.
But when he tested it using RP as I imagine 99% of users will, the following was his conclusion:

Conclusions
As I had expected and hoped, the Lyngdorf RoomPerfect does a wonderful job of correcting the impact of the room, especially in low frequencies. Without correction, every system out there regardless of price of components, suffers from significant audible colorations and loss of detail and focus. No, you can't do the same with room treatment. Even the best treated room requires equalization. Over treating the room to get rid of the modes will create a dull/dead which you want to avoid.

The all-one-one aspect of the Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 showed its value in how it obsolete nearly $70,000 in gear in my room. Integration with Roon player (i.e. streaming) does it for me. Get yourself a pair of excellent speakers and pair it with the Lyngdorf and "you are done." Your tiny system will outperform tons of other systems without equalization.

Overall I am happy to give a recommendation for Lyngdorf TDAI-3400. Its room equalization is a joy to use and makes a fantastic difference to your listening experience.
 

FRFT

Active Member
True, but everyone was talking about the performance without room perfect. It measures like a very cheap amp.

You can get the same performance for much less.

He also states "My company, Madrona Digital does business with one of the companies in the Lyngdorf family (Steinway Lyngdorf). I consider them a good partner of our company so feel free to read as much or as little bias as you feel is right into my review"

You also missed out this paragraph "Note that similar results could be had with other well implemented equalization system. While performance of RoomPerfect was excellent, it didn't do anything other good systems do. So I will be going to my Dirac system and more powerful amplification. But for someone starting fresh and aiming high, the Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 makes a ton of sense and causes you to forget the issues I found in measurements of its electronics."
 

andycc72

Active Member
True, but everyone was talking about the performance without room perfect. It measures like a very cheap amp.

You can get the same performance for much less.

He also states "My company, Madrona Digital does business with one of the companies in the Lyngdorf family (Steinway Lyngdorf). I consider them a good partner of our company so feel free to read as much or as little bias as you feel is right into my review"

You also missed out this paragraph "Note that similar results could be had with other well implemented equalization system. While performance of RoomPerfect was excellent, it didn't do anything other good systems do. So I will be going to my Dirac system and more powerful amplification. But for someone starting fresh and aiming high, the Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 makes a ton of sense and causes you to forget the issues I found in measurements of its electronics."
I read the original review. My point was who is going to buy a 3400 and not use room perfect ?

Doesn’t he also say that the 3400 with RP activated was nearly as good as his $70k rig?

They slaughtered the Dynaudio Special 40’s on ASR too but to my ears they sound wonderful. Im not dismissing measurements but to me anyway they’re not the be and end all. The ASR crowed seem to me to be more into the science than the music.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Let's not dilute the OP's thread folks.. we're 6 pages long already and going off topic. Might be an idea to start a new thread if we want to go off topic from what the OP want's and is reporting back and asking
 

Aslund

Active Member
A small update on the situation.
It has been a crazy week. We got our second child 9 days ago. I had hoped she would stay put until father finished his home demo, but she would not stay put.
Ideally it would best to wait, but I am eager to finish my research. So I have arranged a home demo of the Gato Audio FM-30 starting Monday. Hopefully I can find time to try them properly :D I have also arranged a home demo of the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120, also starting Monday. I can simply not ignore the price/performance of the device. I must give it a try. It has everything I want. But I have also listened to the concerns from people warning that the power might be inadequate.
I have therefore also managed to borrow an amplifier from Gato Audio. Then I have the option to check the performance with higher wattage amplifier.

Ps.
The Larsen 8.2 was sold almost immediately, so I never got a chance to listen to them.
 

musicphil

Active Member
Please remember measurements actually mean nothing, except on paper.
All that matters is how that equipment sounds to you in your system.
The only measurement that actually matters is your ears.
 

Aslund

Active Member
Another update. I have finally installed the Gato Audio FM-30 and Lyngdorf TDAI-1120.
I have made a few pictures of my Gato Audio setup. As you might have noticed from my first pictures, then I have moved the sofa to provide the best conditions as possible. I have also provided a picture of the opposite wall to show my sitting arrangement.

As my 2 week old daughter is sleeping, then I have not done RoomPerfect yet. Instead I am sitting here in the living room and listening to music quitely. First all I notice that the booming bass I had from my Dali 850 is gone. The sound is actually quite nice eventhough RoomPerfect is not in place yet.
One reason I choose Gato Audio FM-30 for home demo was the nice, but not overpowering bass it had at especially lower volumes. This is the same here at home.
A funny thing I notice is that the bass does not seem to be just as powerful here at home as when I listened to them at Gato Audio. I do not know if the room or amplifier is the culprit of that.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Another update. I have finally installed the Gato Audio FM-30 and Lyngdorf TDAI-1120.
I have made a few pictures of my Gato Audio setup. As you might have noticed from my first pictures, then I have moved the sofa to provide the best conditions as possible. I have also provided a picture of the opposite wall to show my sitting arrangement.

As my 2 week old daughter is sleeping, then I have not done RoomPerfect yet. Instead I am sitting here in the living room and listening to music quitely. First all I notice that the booming bass I had from my Dali 850 is gone. The sound is actually quite nice eventhough RoomPerfect is not in place yet.
One reason I choose Gato Audio FM-30 for home demo was the nice, but not overpowering bass it had at especially lower volumes. This is the same here at home.
A funny thing I notice is that the bass does not seem to be just as powerful here at home as when I listened to them at Gato Audio. I do not know if the room or amplifier is the culprit of that.
Listening rooms are often pre-optimised.... which is why home demos are usually a must especially when spending this sort of money. Some of what you are "missing" is due to this pre-optimised listening room.
Extended listening with the amp will soon reveal whether the amp in your ears is up to the task and/or if the speakers will work with your room
 

davidf

Well-known Member
I've only seen the 8's... but not the 8.2. they are weird looking as anything!!! Not heard them though.. Be some strange listening with those angles. I think the Swedish designer was drunk at the time.. :beer::beer:
617larson.2.jpg
They’re ortho-acoustic by design, which originated with Stig Carlsson, with whom John Larsen worked with for several years before Stig’s death. John Larsen has continued wih his design. Function over form.

They’re intentionally not direct firing, which does have them a little bit of a different sound, but they sound more “natural” when you play anything through them. I was listening the the 8.2s today with various tracks, and a heavy piano track sounded, well, just like a piano, rather than a facsimile of.
 

ooctaviuss

Active Member
Hi Aslund, very nice setup :) It looks like here :) :) I have 9 months old daughter. My listening is probably similar than yours. Kinki amp at 35 on display and I enjoy quality of music.
 

Aslund

Active Member
Listening rooms are often pre-optimised.... which is why home demos are usually a must especially when spending this sort of money. Some of what you are "missing" is due to this pre-optimised listening room.
Extended listening with the amp will soon reveal whether the amp in your ears is up to the task and/or if the speakers will work with your room
Indeed. I am both relieved that much of that I liked about Gato Audio is perserved compared to my experience at listning room. I managed to setup RoomPerfect while the little one was eating :D It gave the midrange a bit more body and a slight tightening of the bass. But the biggest letdown is properly the pressure. It is not about the bass being bigger, but I recall feeling the bass better, physically, at the listening room.
I wonder if the room is too big for the FM-30 to shine. I am therefore considering if I should give FM-50 a try. But then the other question is whether the TDAI-1120 can manage those speakers.
Right now, with FM-30 and TDAI-1120, I am at 60% when listening music and at fair level and 70% with TV.
I might give it a day more to see how it turns out. Overall the sound is a perfect fit to what I was searching. Open and airy, clean and precise.

Ps. @Orobas . I got a PM from a guy in Poland describing the Gato Audio sound as muffled. Any comment on that?
It is true that I did not listen to the FM30, but I had FM15 that have the same sound signature. In my experience, Gato loudspeakers require a bright playing amplifier due to the SB acoustic ring tweeter used. This loudspeaker is slightly muffled (this is not its disadvantage, but this is its characteristic).
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
Indeed. I am both relieved that much of that I liked about Gato Audio is perserved compared to my experience at listning room. I managed to setup RoomPerfect while the little one was eating :D It gave the midrange a bit more body and a slight tightening of the bass. But the biggest letdown is properly the pressure. It is not about the bass being bigger, but I recall feeling the bass better, physically, at the listening room.
I wonder if the room is too big for the FM-30 to shine. I am therefore considering if I should give FM-50 a try. But then the other question is whether the TDAI-1120 can manage those speakers.
Right now, with FM-30 and TDAI-1120, I am at 60% when listening music and at fair level and 70% with TV.
I might give it a day more to see how it turns out. Overall the sound is a perfect fit to what I was searching. Open and airy, clean and precise.

Ps. @Orobas . I got a PM from a guy in Poland describing the Gato Audio sound as muffled. Any comment on that?
Speakers all vary according to listening environment, sources and music. Given the fact he describes the "standmount" .. a lot of standmounters can sound muffled and recessed.. only have to look at B&W for that .. it's all about matching the kit. The room is not too big for the FM-30 .. I can tell you that much. The amp is on the small side for the speakers if you are at 60-70% volume
 

Aslund

Active Member
Speakers all vary according to listening environment, sources and music. Given the fact he describes the "standmount" .. a lot of standmounters can sound muffled and recessed.. only have to look at B&W for that .. it's all about matching the kit. The room is not too big for the FM-30 .. I can tell you that much. The amp is on the small side for the speakers if you are at 60-70% volume
A detail I failed to mention in my listening impression at Gato Audio was that the first speaker I listened to was FM-15. And I indeed found it to be very recessed and muffled. It was plain horrible. I don't understand why you even make speakers like that, but I am not experienced enough to judge. Luckily the FM-30 did not have the same traits when I listened to them. I was therefore also puzzled by this message, so thanks for clearing that up :)

As you also point out. The amplifier is to the small size. Question is if it is too small or not. Sadly Gato Audio did not have an amplifier ready when I picked up my speakers, but tomorrow I will borrow their DIA-400S. Then we will see if there is a difference in bass pressure.

As a backup option. I have brought in the Sonetto V. I talked to the dealer today about borrowing them over the weekend but he had some business close to where I live, so they just dropped them off at my doorstep today. They are 90dB sensitivity compared to 87dB for FM-30. So I am curious too see how Sonetto V performs. But I need to test FM-30 a bit more first. I have to return them Friday.

I feel like a HiFi enthusiast with 3 pairs floorstanding speakers in my 110m2 home :D
 

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Orobas

Well-known Member
A detail I failed to mention in my listening impression at Gato Audio was that the first speaker I listened to was FM-15. And I indeed found it to be very recessed and muffled. It was plain horrible. I don't understand why you even make speakers like that, but I am not experienced enough to judge. Luckily the FM-30 did not have the same traits when I listened to them. I was therefore also puzzled by this message, so thanks for clearing that up :)

As you also point out. The amplifier is to the small size. Question is if it is too small or not. Sadly Gato Audio did not have an amplifier ready when I picked up my speakers, but tomorrow I will borrow their DIA-400S. Then we will see if there is a difference in bass pressure.

As a backup option. I have brought in the Sonetto V. I talked to the dealer today about borrowing them over the weekend but he had some business close to where I live, so they just dropped them off at my doorstep today. They are 90dB sensitivity compared to 87dB for FM-30. So I am curious too see how Sonetto V performs. But I need to test FM-30 a bit more first. I have to return them Friday.

I feel like a HiFi enthusiast with 3 pairs floorstanding speakers in my 110m2 home :D
Gato design their speakers to run from their amps also.. when you went to Gato.. did you hear the 15 on their amp .. or did you take your borrowed Lyngdorf?

Be aware that the 3db in extra sensitivity will account for a big change in the sound... the 90db SF's will sound approx half as loud again as the 87db FM-30's ... so bear that in mind (For every 3 decibel sensitivity difference between the two speakers, you will have to double the amplifier power of the lower speaker to reach the same volume) at full power (80w on the SF.. you would need 160w on the FM-30 to reach the same volume)

Gato's Dia-400s is 400W into 8ohm and 800W !!!!! into 4 ohm... it is a monster.. simply put! You will hear a huge difference against the Lyngdorf in the control and in the brute force when you dial that volume north.. the main thing will be how well the room control can get the sound in your room against the matched speaker/amp pairing

Whereas their DIA-250s is 250w into 8ohm and 500 into 4ohm.

Gato's baby AMP-150AE is 150w into 8ohm and 250w into 4ohm <-- interesting that this one doesnt double.... shows the power supply isnt quite there for the double / resistance loading. maybe just the price point limiting this though..
 

Ugg10

Distinguished Member
Be aware that the 3db in extra sensitivity will account for a big change in the sound... the 90db SF's will sound approx half as loud again as the 87db FM-30's ... so bear that in mind (For every 3 decibel sensitivity difference between the two speakers, you will have to double the amplifier power of the lower speaker to reach the same volume) at full power (80w on the SF.. you would need 160w on the FM-30 to reach the same volume)

I agree that for every 3dB increase you double the power and therefore the amp will get an easier ride with the higher sensitivity speakers (omitting min impedance differences), however subjectively a 10dB difference sounds twice as loud, so they will be louder but not twice.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
I agree that for every 3dB increase you double the power and therefore the amp will get an easier ride with the higher sensitivity speakers (omitting min impedance differences), however subjectively a 10dB difference sounds twice as loud, so they will be louder but not twice.
Agreed... that is why i said the 3db would need double the power to reach the same volume! (speakers will sound half as loud again).. I made sure i got that part correct.. double the power is approx 1.5times (1.41 i think the exact increase is..) the volume where 10times the power is twice the volume.. joy of logarithmic values of sound pressure
 

Aslund

Active Member
Gato design their speakers to run from their amps also.. when you went to Gato.. did you hear the 15 on their amp .. or did you take your borrowed Lyngdorf?

Be aware that the 3db in extra sensitivity will account for a big change in the sound... the 90db SF's will sound approx half as loud again as the 87db FM-30's ... so bear that in mind (For every 3 decibel sensitivity difference between the two speakers, you will have to double the amplifier power of the lower speaker to reach the same volume) at full power (80w on the SF.. you would need 160w on the FM-30 to reach the same volume)

Gato's Dia-400s is 400W into 8ohm and 800W !!!!! into 4 ohm... it is a monster.. simply put! You will hear a huge difference against the Lyngdorf in the control and in the brute force when you dial that volume north.. the main thing will be how well the room control can get the sound in your room against the matched speaker/amp pairing

Whereas their DIA-250s is 250w into 8ohm and 500 into 4ohm.

Gato's baby AMP-150AE is 150w into 8ohm and 250w into 4ohm <-- interesting that this one doesnt double.... shows the power supply isnt quite there for the double / resistance loading. maybe just the price point limiting this though..
I heard the FM-15 on their own amplifier.

It is exactly the sensitivity difference that made me bringing in the Sonetto V. I loved its sound and if TDAI-1120 can drive them, then it suddenly makes Sonetto V a much better value than FM-30. I can't ignore that and with a Gato Audio amplifier at hand I can test both Sonetto V and FM-30 too see how well TDAI-1120 handles both speakers.
The other question is also how important the RoomPerfect functionality is. If I can omit it, then Cambridge Audio Evo 150 is an option. Just slightly more expensive than TDAI-1120 but much higher power output. We will see when the Gato amplifier arrives.
The FM-30 with TDAI-3400 reaches a price where it really hurts.

Regarding AMP-150AE, then it is a class AB amplifer while the others are class D.
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
I heard the FM-15 on their own amplifier.

It is exactly the sensitivity difference that made me bringing in the Sonetto V. I loved its sound and if TDAI-1120 can drive them, then it suddenly makes Sonetto V a much better value than FM-30. I can't ignore that and with a Gato Audio amplifier at hand I can test both Sonetto V and FM-30 too see how well TDAI-1120 handles both speakers.
The other question is also how important the RoomPerfect functionality is. If I can omit it, then Cambridge Audio Evo 150 is an option. Just slightly more expensive than TDAI-1120 but much higher power output. We will see when the Gato amplifier arrives.
The FM-30 with TDAI-3400 reaches a price where it really hurts.

Regarding AMP-150AE, then it is a class AB amplifer while the others are class D.
Just remember what you mentioned about the V on your reply #51 on this thread when you said their specs... "need lots of space, cant play the deepest notes, poor floor protectors" and in answer #106 you said "but compared to Sonetto V it was not so forward and aggressive in the top. I would not call them laidback, but the treble is clearly not as pronounced as Sonetto."

You comparison between the 2 in your home should be quite interesting... if you get the chance... run them in the following setup
First pair of fm's..
Second the v's..

Lastly 1 x fm and 1 v.. so you have one of each speaker connected to the amp at the the same time.. this will give you the overall comparison
 

Orobas

Well-known Member
... the Sonetto Vs are also utterly gorgeous 😍😍😍
They look it, and that leather use is just spectacular.. they are let down by that grill though for sure lol.. and sadly i am not as impressed with their more modern pop voicing against their older proper faber models like the concertino and cremona era!

I give the V it's due though. it's a nice speaker that the Atohm GT2-HD was based on and that is noice!
 

Aslund

Active Member
Just remember what you mentioned about the V on your reply #51 on this thread when you said their specs... "need lots of space, cant play the deepest notes, poor floor protectors" and in answer #106 you said "but compared to Sonetto V it was not so forward and aggressive in the top. I would not call them laidback, but the treble is clearly not as pronounced as Sonetto."

You comparison between the 2 in your home should be quite interesting... if you get the chance... run them in the following setup
First pair of fm's..
Second the v's..

Lastly 1 x fm and 1 v.. so you have one of each speaker connected to the amp at the the same time.. this will give you the overall comparison
What I wrote in #51 was not my own experience, but just translation of the highlights from the magasin Lyd & Billede.
My own experience with Sonetto V was a lovely treble and midrange, but lacking bass. I really enjoyed them, it was only the bass response that left me waiting for more. I don't know if this is due to the room or something else. I will see for myself when I test them here at home.

But how do you exactly propose me to test them? Should I place them side by side? What about Lyngdorf and RoomPerfect?
If the speakers are side by side, does it not give a disadvantage to the pair with the speaker closest to the wall corner?

... the Sonetto Vs are also utterly gorgeous 😍😍😍
The Sonetto are gorgeous. But so are the Gato Audio FM-30. The built quality seems a notch higher than Sonetto V.
 

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