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Chip & Pin

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by blackstone, Oct 28, 2005.

  1. blackstone

    blackstone
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    So anyway my son arrives home from work in a call centre for a major UK bank and the conversation goes like this. How was your day son ? Deep sigh....Just spent 3 hours phoning customers born ceca 1919 and others who had not activated their PIN on new cards. So the old yins are just not going to cope. Recording.......Call ctre - A call from the bank bla bla. Reply I don't know you, what card are you talking about anyway. Call ctre - the card we sent you in Aug'. Reply Oh that card, the one you can't read the number on when you peel back the paper, Who are you again I don't know any Jimmy's in my branch. Call ctre - no it's the head office telling you that you must activate your card at an ATM before Feb 14th. Reply, Oh I don't use them things in the high street as everyone can see what you are doing. The rest of the conversation was hilarious but god forbid I get stuck in a queue behind some seniors who think chip & pin is something you eat come Feb' . On a positive note anything that improves card security can't be that bad and before long we will have a gizmo attached to our PC before you can use Ebay or any other net transaction.
     
  2. Mep

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    bless 'em....wrinklies....we'll all be there one day
     
  3. rhoamish

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    How does chip and pin improve security exactly? It's easy to see people input their pin number in supermarket queues, petrol stations, ATMs etc. And remembering 4 numbers is much easier than forging a signature.

    Chip and pin is rather more cynical than that. If fraud occurs, it's easy for the banks to blame the customer, and say that they must have been careless with their pin. Whereas before, it was easy to put the blame on the banks for accepting forged signatures. The net result is that the banks will pay less in fraudulent claims, and the public are less well protected.

    As for the elderly being reluctant to use ATMs: I'm reluctant too! There is a huge problem around here with 'dummy' ATMs that copy your card, and store your PIN. They're pretty sophisticated, and would be hard to spot (they fit over an existing ATM, and look very convincing).
     
  4. fortean

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    For Internet shopping I think the card company should send an SMS to your mobile phone with the purchase details asking you to reply with your PIN. If they did that it would be almost impossible to use someone elses card. And if someone did use your card number you would get an SMS from the bank.
     
  5. Achy

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    But most of the shop staff don't *really* check the signature closely anyway... I've done some dodgey signatures in my time and they've all been accepted. I've signed my signature for my wifes card as well, accepted without a second glance. :eek:

    But someone would have to steal your card, just having the pin wouldn't be enough.... so if your cards stolen, a quick call to the bank and it's stopped.
     
  6. Achy

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    If there was a fradulant transaction the retailer used to be liable for it, so would be out of pocket.

    I'd heard that the reason the banks introduced Chip and Pin was due to a change in the law, which made the banks liable for the fradulant transaction...

    Which obviously would make a dent in their profits ! :rolleyes:
     
  7. mh123

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    For anyone worried about using your card online, Cahoot have an excellent system whereby you are allocated a unique card number on a per-transaction basis, and YOU get to set the maximum value per transaction too, so there's no fiddling with the amount.
     
  8. mrtbag

    mrtbag
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    I don't know, but all the stats I've seen say year on year 2005 is showing a 29% drop in Card fraud. They estimate a 50% reduction once the roll out is complete, so it's not all bad.
     
  9. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    I agree, the Cahoot system is excellent. I get the impression that the banks are thinking only of themselves, and not about the customers. They assume that theirs is (of course) the only card that the customer will have, and (of course) the customer will remember the PIN.

    Well, I have 2 debit cards, 2 credit cards, plus two more cards which I use in connection with my business, so I'm expected to remember 6 x 4-digit numbers. Yes, we know we can change the number at an ATM, but that assumes that we know the original numbers in the first place. The whole chip and pin thing has been so badly thought out - all that it has really achieved is to save the banks money, whilst costing everyone else money by being forced to queue in slow shop queues, whilst we fumble with that stupid machine with its tiny buttons, and 3mm high LCD display. I've got news for the banks - not everyone has 20/20 vision, and nimble fingers !
     
  10. mh123

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    For all my cards I reset my PIN to a number that is actually present on the card itself in some form or other, so by simply whipping a card out of my wallet and giving it a cursory glance I can tell you the PIN. Obviously I'm not going to disclose the ACTUAL method that I employ on a public forum :nono: , but a few useful examples might be:

    1. The last digit of each of the 4 sections of digits, so card number 1112 1113 1114 1115 would have a PIN of 2345

    2. Digit 1 of section 1, 2 of section 2 etc. (harder to do at a glance though!)

    3. Expiry date in reverse, so a card with expiry date 05/99 would have PIN 9950

    etc.

    The thing is, the PIN is made up of a string of 4 numbers in the range 0-9 and these same individual digits are printed all over your card anyway. So if only you know the method, then it works and it's perfectly safe.
     
  11. GrahamC

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    I dont have a mobile phone... :confused:
     
  12. Astaroth

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    Unless there was proof that the retailer was negligent then under the old signiture system the banks used to be liable.

    Under chip and pin the store now becomes liable if they have not used chip and pin where the card holder had a chip and pin card - ie if they over ride the requirement for a pin or they dont have chip and pin enquipment yet. If it is used correctly and the store isnt negligent then the banks remain liable.

    The security aspect of chip and pin is the fact it is a black and white - either you have the pin number correct or you dont and it is all checked by machines. With a signiture - it is never identical and so there is a judgement call of wether it is similar enough or not to accept and that assumes that the person on the checkout is actually looking at it properly.

    At one time I had the other halfs purse in my pocket - why women buy handbags that they cant fit anything in I will never know - and I went into a shop and accidently paid by her card. The shop assistance didnt pick up on the facts that 1) the card says Miss and I dont really look like any kind of Miss 2) my signiture looks nothing like hers 3) as we arent married we dont even have the same surname
     
  13. Achy

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    You need one of these :smashin:

    Craymer Grid
     
  14. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    The chip and pin has a couple of inherent weakness...... when you're entering your PIN, everyone else (who is honest) is averting their eyes away from the machine, including the sales assistant. So nobody spots the little oik who is peering over your shoulder !

    Also, because the system has been touted as being so secure, shop assistants don't even bother to check whether a card is being used fraudulently (i.e. a card with MRS A SMITH on it being used by a man).
     
  15. Zef

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    Chip and pin is more secure because the pin is stored on the chip and is much harder for the card to be cloned.
    Before chip and pin it was big business for baddies to get a swipe of the mag strip on your card and to clone it onto another piece of plastic, with their own signature and name.
    Now they have to get the pin number aswell (much harder to do) and write that back to the card, requiring expensive, sophisticated card writers that are not availible in the public domain.

    If someone took a look at your pin number, they would obviously have to steal your card. They wouldnt really get that far because you would have reported it, and got the card stopped. It was much easier to clone a card and go on a months worth of spending spree before the original owner got their bill..

    I think its a really good idea, rather that having photos on the card or some form of biometric information. Its quick and simple to use and Its also good to see the UK catching up on chip and pin with the rest of Europe where its been around for ages.
     
  16. Pooon

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    So what if they see your number? what are they going to do with it? For example if i told you MY pin was 4378 what good is it to you, you can't do anything with it can you.

    Chip & Pin is a good thing unless you are:
    a: stupid
    b: blind

    because the system is still in its infancy people have not become adjusted to it yet, its a bit like when widescreen Tv's came out, lots of people didn't like them because they made people 'look fat' but once they became adjusted they realised they were a good idea
     

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