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Chicken Wire effect common

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by azzo, Mar 14, 2002.

  1. azzo

    azzo
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    I have just seen the Sony VPL-HS1 under not ideal conditions in out local Bentalls with a dvd player, probably under s-video (not sure) and the chicken wire efect makes it unwatchable.
    Does any one know if this is common with the cheaper projectors or will the Pany 100AE be better. This has really put me off buying one.

    Regards Azzo.
     
  2. jrwood

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    From my perspective I get zero chicken wire effect from 6 foot viewing distance (I used to sit 9 feet away from the screen) but recently changed the room around a bit).

    My projector is probably the cheapest here?, it's a Sony VPL-CX1 (XGA native) which cost £1299 inc vat! coupled with a 7 foot wide grey screen.

    James
     
  3. Timh

    Timh
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    I get some chicken wire effect on panning shot's on bright colour's, with the AE100 in svideo, but this vanish's when using componant.
     
  4. azzo

    azzo
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    Timh,

    I notice you are using a progressive scan DVD, Do you know what the chiken wire effect is on the Panny AE100 via PAL S-vid or component? I will playing back via a sony 725 DVD. I am use to a stunning picture on my Loewe Planus Tv, albeit a small one. I'm a little worried that I'll buy one of these projectors (probably the panny) and won't be able to watch it.
    I guess I need to find a dealer who will give me a good dem.

    Azzo

    jrwood, are you using a Home Cinema projector or a data projector. I.e. does it have a short throw lense and a quite fan. 1299 seems rather cheap for an XGA projector. Also are the borders at the top an bottom of the screen on a widescreen presentation dark or light?

    Azzo
     
  5. LV426

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    The Chicken Wire effect is a short way of describing the ability to see the individual black lines that separate the individual pixels in an LCD display. In this context, it seems unlikely that its visibility will change, at all, depending on the type of signal/connection used. However, it is quite possible that some other artefact (ie not chicken wire) will differ between sources.

    The visibility of the chicken wire itself depends on

    1) The size of the gaps between the pixels
    2) To a lesser extent, the number of pixels
    3) Viewing distance from the screen related to the size of the projected image (where further and/or smaller is better).

    One projector will differ from another. For example, when used for widescreen material, and all other things being equal (they never actually are) a true 16x9 projector will outperform a 4x3 projector (with a 16x9 mode).

    I use a Sony VW10HT. This has true 16x9 panels, each with a million pixels. I sit about 12 feet from an 8 foot wide screen ie I sit 1.5x the screen's width away. The pixel structure (chicken wire) is totally undetectable to the naked eye at this relative distance.
     
  6. azzo

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    So moving on from my origin query...
    Is the Sony VPL-HS1 a particularly bad projector for this sort of thing. I mean from a couple of meters, (being thrown about 4 meters) the picture was unwatchable.

    jrwood
    Where did you get your VPL-CX1 from and will this give a better widescreen performance from a Panny AE100 - after all it has many more pixels in this mode

    Azzo
     
  7. jrwood

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    Azzo I have not seen the Panasonic in action so I cannot comment on it. I am however very impressed with a) screenshots b) the perceived quietness of it c) the price d) the fact its not DLP and therefore no horrible rainbows. e) ceiling mounted - for me I prefer getting the projector out and putting it on a stand behind the sofa but if you plan to have it ceiling mounted the LCD CX1 cannot be ceiling mounted its only usable in table top mode.

    The Sony VPL-CX1 is really a data projector for work/home use, I only bought it because I wanted to buy a RPTV and then started to look at various projectors. I found that the image quality was far better than any of the RPTV's I demo'ed (Toshiba/Sony) so I went for the projector which was actually cheaper than the RPTV I had in mind!. I would'nt call the Sony VPL-CX1 a short or long throw lense although it does have a very nice zoom lense which gives you a lot of room for moving the projector to your desired position.

    Im not sure why the projector is £1299 as all online stores still retail the projector for £1999+, PC World obviously got a lot of the discontinued projector from Sony and dumped it on to the market for the benefit of us Home Cinema virgins :). Imho on DVD the projector is just as good as my Sony TV set, the detail is astonishing for such a large screen (114" diaganol). Although this projector did retail at £2500? in March 2001.

    I think the only way you can decide what kind of projector is right for you is to demo/borrow on from a retailer overnight. Also if you don't plan to use a PC with a projector then you need to choose one which has a good scaler which I think the Panasonic does. My Sony VPL-CX1 is terrible for composite/svideo in compared to the astonishing colours/vibrancy it outputs from the PC!.

    With any 4:3 projector you will get light spill above and below your 16:9 screen. What I've done is put black velvet above/below the projector which makes it really look like a true cinema, plus the fact it cuts out all light spill and increases the perceived contrast (i.e your eyes are not distracted by light above/below the film!).

    Also you need to use a grey screen with most projectors to get good blacks, you will never get a complete black like on a TV set, but I've been recently watching a lot of dark movies since I've re-calibrated my projector and they are all very watchable/enjoyable. The default settings though for most projectors create a flat 2D like picture, until you start changing the settings in the service/factory mode then you start to realise a 3D picture is possible!.

    My current setup is 7 foot wide screen, sofa about 6-7 foot back so the viewing distance is about 6 feet. The projector sits behind the sofa at about 15 feet. The Sony VPL-CX1 does make a lot of noise, but with my setup this does'nt bother me as you never hear the projector in most of the scenes in films until it goes quiet. However as the projector is quite far away from the seating position now its not bothersome for me!. If you plan to put a projector in a small room then you need to look at a projector <32db, the Sony is about 36db, although I have the fan model/type now so I may look into changing the fan to make it whisper quiet..! I took it apart last night to see what was in there :)

    James

    p.s when I first had the projector it sat in front of the sofa at about 6 foot and displayed a 7 foot image roughly but if a projector is in front of you I think it spoils the 'cinema feel'.
     
  8. jrwood

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  9. Timh

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    azzo

    Pal svideo, some chicken wire on panning shots, only slight though.
    Componant pal/ntsc, no chicken wire at all.
     
  10. azzo

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    James,

    Thank you for your informative reply. I will be using the projector on a coffee table in front of the sofa, around 6 ft away from the screen which, like the projector I haven't decided on.
    Can you notice any chicken wire effect at this distance on S-Video/component? As the projector will be close to me and I am very particular about sound a quiet pj is must.

    Would you recommend an XGA projector over a WVGA one?

    I am now confused over how the input connection makes any odds on the CWE chicken wire effect . I know I keep going on about this but it really is nasty. Tim uses a progressive scan DVD with no CWE on component, but slight on S-video. Is this because the progressive scan illimnates it somehow? Does anyone know if the CWE will be apparent on a non progrressive scan DVD?
     
  11. Timh

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    Azzo

    I also get no chicken wire on normal componant out (interlaced).
     
  12. azzo

    azzo
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    So, does this mean that the sony is really bad for this, or was it just the setup in the shop?
     
  13. Timh

    Timh
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    I saw the HS1 at a show, it was connected via componant, I didn't see any chicken wire, but I could see vertical lines from the panel structure.
     
  14. Kevin Harris

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    azzo,

    I have a VPL-HS1 showing a 7 foot wide picture I sit 10 feet from the screen and the screen door effect is only slightly evident on really bright scenes and i mean very slightly only because I know to look for it.

    If the projector you viewed was at max zoom this will make screen door more evident also and I have found most places go for the bigger the better approach when it comes to demos and also never feed the projector a good signal or use good cables.

    I have had my HS1 for 5 months now and not once have I been disappointed in the picture and the great myth of not being able to ceiling mount the HS1 has been dispelled into the realms of never never.

    Hope this helps

    Kev.
     
  15. azzo

    azzo
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    I'm not worried about ceiling mounting, but thanks for reasuring me this subject. The shop probably had it at max zoom with crap cables, source etc.

    I guess I need to find a good dem.
     
  16. jrwood

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    azzo if you plan to have the projector in front of you on a coffee table then you need to fill two main criterias

    1) low noise level (HS1 ? and AE100 dont make much noise I belive)

    2) light spill from the projector needs to be zero/minimal. The last thing you want to see in front of you is a shining light!, it will detract from the 7 foot picture just above the projector!

    James
     
  17. Me

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    azzo
    What about a different projector. I use a Sanyo PLV30 and have no problems with it at all, no visible pannel structure or any real surprizes. I find it an excellent projector. I am using a Sony CX 850 DVD player through S-Video and it is fine. It cost a little more than the Sony or Panny but not much more.
    Mark
     
  18. azzo

    azzo
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    The 16:9 LCD sounds great on the Panny. Actually it all sounds ideal, what with the low noise 5000 lamp life etc. apart from that is, availability. Interesting I was looking at the sanyo before the panny but at nearly 500 pounds difference (1380 compared to 1860) it would have to be a vastly better picture. If panasonic can get the price down with a 16:9 lcd then all of the other companies who use a very common svga lcd should be ashamed of themselves.
     
  19. gavan

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    I watch a 1.2m wide image (on the supplied screen) from a HS1 at 2.5m and I don't notice any screendoor/chickenwire effect.

    The rule of thumb is that if you view the image from pretty much any LCD panel at less than 2x the screen width, you can expect screendoor to start becoming noticeable.


    Gav
     
  20. richard plumb

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    which is generally better for image quality/less chicken wire?:

    Same screen size produced by
    - full zoom out closer to the screen

    - full zoom in further away from the screen
     
  21. LV426

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    Depends on the quality of the scaler and the LCD panels. My VW10, for example, is entirely watchable at about 1.5x width.
    Assuming the optical qualities of the lens are up to scratch, there should be absolutely no difference. If, however, your installation requires the projector to be mounted higher or lower than it "should be" (as per the instructions), and you therefore get a keystone effect which you need to correct - this effect, and hence the amount of correction, will be reduced at a longer throw distance.
     
  22. Grubert

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    More specifically, it depends on the panel resolution. The VW10 has a horizontal resolution more than 50% higher than that of the AE100 or the Philips Monroe, so pixel visibility and chicken wire will be much less noticeable.

    Regarding zooming out and moving the projector closer, or zooming in and moving the projector further away, I think it is the latter option that gives the highest quality, because uniformity will be higher. Also, very short focal lengths are more prone to causing geometrical distortion. Of course, I'm assuming the atmosphere is more or less clear (try projecting inside a sauna and you'll understand :D)

    Regards.
     
  23. MAW

    MAW
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    I think the original chicken wire effect was not pixel structure, but an s-video artefact, I get it, when watching digital cable, I plan to get a RGB-s-video converter box to help, and use a better cable. I gather that http://www.rgbtosvideo.com./ will be making a rgb/comonent box also, which might be the thing. The answer for the sony will be to get it demonstated properly, so the source of the problem can be identified.

    martin
     
  24. Chris Frost

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    I've been following this thread for a few days.

    Azzo, you keep saying that Tim is using a progressive scan DVD player. Are you referring to Timh? If so, then his signature says quite clearly that the DVD player is interlaced, not progressive.

    Are you confusing Component with Progressive? They aren't the same and this is important. The Sony 725 is not Progressive Scan capable either, but it does have Component (and RGB) output.

    Moving on, in my view there are three main issues that affect the Chicken Wire effect.

    1 - Pixel size compared to the pixel gap. This is sometimes referred to as the Fill Factor.
    2 – Viewing distance vs. Screen size
    3 - Video processing.

    In general, SVGA panels have a better Fill Factor than XGA. This means you see less pixellation on SVGA products. This dispels the myth that higher resolution automatically means better picture quality.

    Some of the newer generation SVGA LCD panels have an improved Fill Factor because the gaps have become smaller. We use such panels in our Monroe home cinema projector.

    No matter what the resolution and Fill Factor of a single lens projector, if you sit too close to the screen you will see the pixel structure. This is where the viewing distance and screen size come in to play.

    Comments have been made that the zoom setting can make CWE more visible. I feel this is the wrong explanation. If you “zoom up” the picture, you will see more pixel structure because the picture gets bigger, not because the zoom is at maximum wide angle. The same would happen with a longer throw distance creating a bigger image. The image size is the factor, not the zoom setting.

    What is important is the size of screen for your own viewing distance. This brings me to another of Azzos’s comments:
    “I am use to a stunning picture on my Loewe Planus Tv, albeit a small one. I'm a little worried that I'll buy one of these projectors (probably the panny) and won't be able to watch it.”

    Azzo, try sitting 3ft (1 metre) back from your 28 or 32” TV then watch the picture. Chances are you’ll see lots of problems like jaggies, poor definition of small objects and some line flicker that you didn’t notice when sat on the sofa at your normal viewing distance. This is just like watching a 6ft wide projected image from about 10ft back. If the TV looked poor to you, then I’m afraid a projector isn’t going to look much better. The image quality is limited by the resolution of the source and the fact that it is interlaced.

    Image processing can help. This is why products like the iScan line doubler, progressive scan DVD players and HCPC systems have become so popular. They lift the burden of processing the image from the projector, and the difference they can make is sometimes astonishing. JRWood said it all. His CX1 was "terrible for composite/svideo... compared to the astonishing colours/vibrancy it outputs from the PC!"

    To end on a positive note, I have to say that today’s home cinema projectors produce some great results. Providing you understand their limitations and how they might be improved upon, there is nothing as exciting as watching the latest blockbuster action film in your own mini cinema.

    Regards
     
  25. Timh

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    Chris

    I did have a Lecson dvd-1000, which was progressive pal/ntsc, but it has a streaking fault with progressive scan, It went back to Debenhams, as have so many other's.
    I have now gone back to interlaced for now, with my Sony dvp-335 :(
     
  26. azzo

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    Chris, you have come up with some interesting points. Fair point, Timh is not using progressive scan, I should have noticed that.
    You say, In general, SVGA panels have a better Fill Factor than XGA. This means you see less pixellation on SVGA products. This dispels the myth that higher resolution automatically means better picture quality I'd be interested to see who challenges you on the XGA vs SVGA. Why would people buy an XGA product for home movies (usually at twice the price) if they can get better pictures with SVGA panels. This must be what governs the price. I can't comment, I don't own either.

    You say that pixel size compare to pixel gap is refered to the 'fill rate' I though fill rate had something to do with how quickly the panel could fill with pixels giving smoother picture? Now I am confused.

    If your point about image size govening CWE is correct then I'd be right in saying a smaller picture would improve things, but the whole point of a projector is for the large screen. And I like to be 'close' to the screen for an even bigger picture. I would definitely see the effect then. Whats the point of a big screen if you have to sit far away. You may as well have a small one and sit nearer?

    You make an excellent point about Artefacts on my Loewe, they are visible regardless of viewing distance, 1 meter, 3 meters they are still there, but I have got use to them and they do not detract from the picture quality. The picture really does stand out, even after 3 years of viewing I am still impressed. Now, do LCD projectors do similar processing and will I see similar artefacts from a projector. This may be a problem if the they are magnified?
     
  27. tahustvedt

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    No, not Fill Rate, Fill Factor. :)
     
  28. azzo

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    Nice front room, if only I could persuade the wife to get some nice speakers like yours...
     
  29. Timh

    Timh
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    tahustvedt

    Out of interest, what model plane's do you fly?
    I used to fly Model aircraft, but find it hard to find the time to do it now, it didn't help with the flying field being 12 miles away.
    I still have all my kit and aircraft, my favourite is and I believe will always be the Goldberg Super Chipmunk.
     
  30. tahustvedt

    tahustvedt
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    I haven't flown in over a year now. :)

    I usually make my own designs. I only fly electric planes and have never flown glow-engined planes. :) I have probably constructed and crashed over 20 planes in the last six-seven years. The plane I miss most was a Short Skyvan electric twin which had an onboard camera and flaps. It was the most fun I have had with a model.

    I have a Flair Messerschmitt BF-110 kit which I havent completed yet. It's an electric twin with 165cm wingspan and I have made the landing gear doors operating with retractable landing gear. If only I can find the time to complete it. :)

    It can be a real pain flying model aircraft in the summer where I live. If you stand still for two seconds you're eaten up by mosquitoes. I've had to emergency land several times because it was so overwhelming. :) Luckilly I have access to the airport where mosquitoes don't reach (too much tarmac). :)


    Tor Arne.
     

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