1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Cheap line doubler?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by berko_stan, Dec 23, 2002.

  1. berko_stan

    berko_stan
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi,
    I'm being bothered by scan lines on my AE100, and I'm thinking of getting a line doubler. I use an RGB to YUV converter from an NTL cable box, and wondered if this:
    http://www.scancom.ltd.uk/products/avt-3343.htm
    might be suitable, rather than shelling out a monkey on an I-Scan or similar.
    It takes component, and outputs RGB to a VGA input.

    Is this a dead cheap alternative to the standard solutions, or am I missing something?

    Ian
     
  2. dejongj

    dejongj
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    The way I read the specs is that the input already has to be non-interlaced. It seems that it is just a transcoder from component to VGA...

    Cheers,

    JP
     
  3. NIIK_TT

    NIIK_TT
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Sorry for my ignorance but doesnt a Pro V unit do the job of line doubling and includes a built in tuner for abour £120????
     
  4. bxd

    bxd
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2001
    Messages:
    1,482
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Southampton
    Ratings:
    +136
    Hi,

    JP is correct in that the unit is a transcoder (YUV to rgb). The proV or the XGA theater (on the scancom site) would do the job. However, you'll need to check if the AE100 is happy with an anamorphic rgbhv signal on it's vga input.

    Brian.
     
  5. dejongj

    dejongj
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yes to echo Brian...

    The following product may be more of interest.

    http://www.scancom.ltd.uk/products/csc-1200t.htm
    £199 and you have the choice to output RGBHV via HD15 (VGA) or Component. Which is something I think the ProV doesn't do...

    Cheers,

    JP
     
  6. berko_stan

    berko_stan
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks for the replies.

    I was aware of the Pro V, but preferred the idea of the Scancom as it took component input. I'd have been limited to composite with the Pro V, as I don't have an S-Video feed.

    As people have pointed out, it turns out to be a transcoder. It's a frequency doubler rather than a line doubler.

    I bought a Pro-V, as, after reading all the blurb by owners and advertisers, it seemed to be a genuine de-interlacer, but having experimented with it for a few days, I know it isn't. The picture quality is inferior to that achieved with either the straight component or VGA inputs on my AE100, and the scan lines are as visible as ever.

    If you look carefully at the Pro V documentation, the only real claim it makes for the thing is that it's a 'scan doubler'. The use of the words 'Progressive' and 'frame buffer technology' on the box seem to be an attempt to nudge you into thinking it has a frame store and produces progressive output.
    The vendors have run with this; Keene mis-descibe it as a 'line doubler'.
    So, it's going back on Monday.

    The Scancom 1200t suggested by JP looks more promising, specifically mentioning 'motion adaptive deinterlacing', but the fact it otherwise appears so similar to the Pro V makes me nervous. Think I might have to give it a go, though...


    Ian.
     
  7. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,712
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +613
    the proV is a line doubler , albeit a very cheap one, if you want better than the proV you need to start looking at the Iscan Pro or Plus, the new Centre Stage CS1/2 or maybe their cheaper one at $999 , no UK price that i know of yet.

    the fact is that you will not improve scan lines on your AE100 and i think you may be talking about the lcd array rather than scanlines.

    why ??

    because the fact that it is an lcd projector means that it has its own line doubler and scaler built in, that projector is 865x480 or somthing ike that, so whatever you put into it ends up being scaled to 865x480, even if you fed it 1080 lines from a Hi-Def source it would be reduced to 480 lines by the time it got to the lcd panel, and would not improve the line structure.

    the only way you will get rid of the line structure is to upgrade to a higher resolution projector. I have had an AE100 for a weekend to compare it with a DLP i had and I couldnt belive how annoyed i got with the lines on it compared with the DLP I had, but after de-focusing a bit it wasn't too bad, my mate said it didnt bother him at all, so we are all different.
     
  8. berko_stan

    berko_stan
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi, Gizlaroc.

    I'm pretty sure what's bothering me is the interlacing.
    I can see the pixel structure quite easily up close, but 'screen door' isn't a problem for me at all, as I project a relatively small (65" diagonal) screen, and sit well back.
    The hated lines are only visible when large blocks of colour are moving, which suggests that they are a product of the effective 'line halving' when each field of the frame is displaying a different image.

    If the Pro V really does line double, however badly, it should have got rid of this effect, shouldn't it? I thought I must be missing a setting somewhere!
    I finally gave up on it when I watched some rolling credits at the end of a film, and they actually jerked up the screen in distinct steps with the Pro V, and were silky smooth on the untouched VGA feed. I guess that's due to quantisation errors when the Pro V is scaling to a different resolution to the AE100's native one, as advised by an ardent Pro V fan.
    Matching the scaling to the native resolution introduces different (worse) artifacts.

    Do you know what method the Pro V uses for de-interlacing - Bob / weave etc?

    BTW, was that the Only thing you found lacking with the AE100 compared to your DLP job? ;-)

    Ian.
     
  9. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,712
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +613
    to be honest with you that wasnt the only thing that the ae-100 was behind in, the most noticable thing was the blacks, we just couldnt get anywhere near black with the lcd unit, the dlp was a Plus UP-880, clone of the nec LT-100 so an early generation DLP, i had done the colour wheel mod (black out the white section) and the blacks were far better on the dlp.

    he was trying to decide whether to buy the AE-100 or a DLP, I was going to be using the DLP for gaming and a crt for films, however he pursuaded me to sell him the DLP and he took the AE-100 back, and considering he got it through his company for £900 it says a fair bit about the DLP.
    With the higher contrast ratio the Plus unit seemed to have more snap, and it was pretty good for lack of rainbows, i could only ever see them if i really looked on credits, ie white against black, and when i demoed the sim HT200 i could see them every few seconds, so i do see them.

    however i have to say we were very impressed at how quiet the AE-100 was and the bulb life.

    but back to your problem, your projector can only show a progressive image, whether it is done internally or by an external unit, when you get the judder is it with pal or ntsc material ???

    I have a ProV sitting at work that i will have a play with and see what results i get, and let you know. I will take it round his and try it on the DLP and see if it does a better or worse job then the one in te projector.
     
  10. berko_stan

    berko_stan
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Mmmm, contrast.
    I've worked in IT for years, and am always walking past desks with monitors displaying bright grey blacks. I fiddle with the brightness and contrast for a few seconds and a beautiful contrasty image emerges out of a deep black. The user gasps at the difference, and the universe is a better place.

    Now I'm committed to staring at a 5ft TV screen where there is simply no black to be found, and no amount of knob twiddling can change it. I've got my 'Icestorm 6' covered MDF (which made an immense difference from a white screen), and I've tried the Hoya filter, but the dymnamic range is now too small for any further improvement.

    Thanks for doing more tests with the Pro V. Were you using a grey screen for your previous comparisons, by the way?

    The jerkiness was on PAL material. It wasn't present when I matched the PRO V's scaling to the AE100's native resolution, which supports my quantisation errors theory.

    Ian.
     
  11. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,712
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +613
    we tried both projectors with a da-light 1.3 gain screen and a da-lite high contrast cinema vision ? if that is the right name, the grey screen was better for blacks and the prefered screen for the ae-100 but the the 1.3 was pretty good for the dlp.

    however he compromised and bought a 1 gain screen and is very happy with it.
     
  12. NeilMcRae

    NeilMcRae
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,187
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +6
    I had a look at the CYU-343 and as you say it just converts
    component to VGA, it has some switches for selecting the output mode which I really don't see why it has them. The quality was outstanding from my Nintendo Gamecube in 480p mode, but on my 1600X1200 LCD screen it was a postage stamp sized picture. :D

    The scaler on the LCD helped but it wasn't good enough so:

    I've ordered one of these:

    http://www.scancom.ltd.uk/products/avt-3700.htm

    Which arrives today, for the money its incredible and a couple of guys on the avs board rate this positively [some issues with TBC that seem to be resolved but other than that thumbs up].
    I'll post results here.

    Regards,
    Neil.
     
  13. berko_stan

    berko_stan
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Component input, too...
    I'd be very interested to hear how you get on with it.
    Are you bothered by scan lines, presently, or am I a lone, line seeing freak? :)

    Ian.
     
  14. NeilMcRae

    NeilMcRae
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,187
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +6
    No, this is for another issue -> playing consoles on VGA monitors :) But I have a plasma screen that does scan lines also in higher resolutions so I'll try that also.

    Neil.
     
  15. dejongj

    dejongj
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Neil,

    Interesting device, but according to the specs it only does 3:2 pulldown and not the 2:2 which is required on PAL. Aren't you worried about that?

    Look forward to hear you experiences.

    Regards,

    Jean-Paul
     
  16. NeilMcRae

    NeilMcRae
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,187
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +6
    No, I gave up on PAL many years ago, despite being a good standard the hardware companies are not what I'd call ideal interms of support for the region. Especially when it comes to HDTV and progressive, its also a case of rip off britain/europe when it comes to the cost of hardware and software. I was able to import a US Xbox for the same price as an PAL one! PS-2 was 50quid cheaper etc etc. Videogames are the worst, often PAL are quick ports of NTSC with huge borders and slow running, and it takes months for PAL versions to appear. e.g. I've been playing Metroid Prime on my US Gamecube since november, not out here until late march!

    Most of my DVD's are region 1, all my consoles are NTSC or NTSC-J

    I'm getting to the stage where I'm about to import an LCD TV with HDTV modes also!

    Regards,
    Neil.
     
  17. NeilMcRae

    NeilMcRae
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,187
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +6
    Well I'm very happy, this ImageMax box is excellent. It matches the quality of my Gamecube progressive using gamecube interlace into the box then de-interlacing the box. Going to try it on the plasma and with other sources. But first glance big thumbs up.

    Neil.
     
  18. NeilMcRae

    NeilMcRae
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,187
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +6
    OK more playing with this:

    It only accepts an NTSC or PAL interlaced signal. It has two options to output: RGBVH [VGA] or Component. It will take Component, svideo or composite again all have to be 480i or 576i signals, pity it doesn't take RGB+S in as this would have made it perfect but for 300 quid I am not complaining. It switches between the 3.

    On VGA mode it outputs upto 1280*1024, with consoles I don't see any artifacts or issues, will try the dvd player and Cable soon.

    Will do 4:3 or 16:9 and has controls to change brightness, hue, colour, sharpness and contrast.

    Oh and for major cool points - a blue LED :D

    Neil.
     
  19. dejongj

    dejongj
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I know you prefer NTSC and stuff, but have you had a change to use it with Sky or Digital cable?

    Are you connecting it via composite, sVideo or RGB?

    Do you notice any specific difference between scaling it to 480p, 576p, 720p or 1080i?

    Can the brightness etc be adjusted per input channel or is one setting for all?

    Still sound like a very interesting box. I have also been looking at the ADSTECH HDUP1500 but can't find it anywhere to buy yet.

    Cheers,

    Jean-Paul
     
  20. NeilMcRae

    NeilMcRae
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,187
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +6

    JP:
    Started a new thread to update folks on this.

    Neil.
     
  21. dejongj

    dejongj
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Where?
     

Share This Page

Loading...