Charger questions? smart/fast/slow/dumb?

ufo550

Well-known Member
I can see where the earth is bonded to the incoming mains supply and the copper pipe work a couple of feet to the external metal tap hence my puzzlement.

Regarding The other comments, yes my qualified electrical engineer has explained all the relevant regulations and is comfortable that what I’m planning is not in breach of the regs or dangerous.
Being a qualified electrician myself, I wouldn't be connecting my ev car charger to a standard outdoor electrical socket; is is not one of the methods suggested in Section 722.

I don't know how your electrical engineer has come to this conclusion. I'm not trying to make a thing of this, but the use of Class 1 devices, i.e. your car, outside the equipotential zone can be potentially dangerous, as shown in those videos I linked.

It is normal to bond any extraneous metal work; your tape may or may not be extraneous. It should be tested to clarify its status. In years gone by, it was normal practise to bond everything that was metal, such as radiators, metal windows etc. Thankfully, that is no longer the case.
 

AMc

Distinguished Member
As be said earlier, I can see the earth bonding on the pipes. The installation was done by electricians with the relevant part p training and certified about 12 yes ago. At the same time EDF installed s 3 phase supply and replaced my meter.

Connecting the car charger to a socket on the wall inside my utility with the cable out the window isn’t any different to connecting it to the socket on the outside wall.
The car is outside the charger is connected to the house supply. Relying on the electronics in the charger to detect and isolate if that supply is faulty.

The issue is if the charger is or isn’t safe to use connected to a car parked outside.

I have decided that the I’m prepared to accept the small risk that I’ve researched on the basis that I dont think VW would supply something with an intrinsic potentially fatal design flaw.
 

noiseboy72

Distinguished Member
The question to ask VW is what supply type this cable is designed to be used on and will it disconnect if the PEN to the property fails? This is not directly related to if the earth is missing in the supply, but if the neutral and earth are both disconnected, will the live supply to the car also be disconnected?

As I said, in reality there's been a few hundred failures from a few million properties, and if your supply was upgraded, there's a good chance more electrodes were added at that time. It's a managed risk, but one you should be aware of.
 

ufo550

Well-known Member
As be said earlier, I can see the earth bonding on the pipes. The installation was done by electricians with the relevant part p training and certified about 12 yes ago. At the same time EDF installed s 3 phase supply and replaced my meter.

Connecting the car charger to a socket on the wall inside my utility with the cable out the window isn’t any different to connecting it to the socket on the outside wall.
The car is outside the charger is connected to the house supply. Relying on the electronics in the charger to detect and isolate if that supply is faulty.

The issue is if the charger is or isn’t safe to use connected to a car parked outside.

I have decided that the I’m prepared to accept the small risk that I’ve researched on the basis that I dont think VW would supply something with an intrinsic potentially fatal design flaw.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your installation.

The issue is using your pme supply outside the equipotential zone, a potential can develop between your conductive parts (bonded water pipes AND your metal car) connected to the PME earth terminal and the general mass of true Earth (the ground).

As said before, are the components inside your car able to detect the loss of a pen conductor? Ask VW.

As far as I'm aware, no manufacturer supplies vehicles with a charging system for a particular supply type; its designed purely to use the electricity to charge the vehicles batteries and disconnect the supply to protect the vehicle & batteries, not the user.

If you have a 3 phase supply, you have the option of using a charging point, that does not use a neutral. I would advice seeking guidance from electrical contractors, who are trained and approved to install charging points, for charging ev cars outside.

Here's a handy guide from Electrical Safety First;

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/2037/glovebox-guide-to-evs-esf.pdf
 

arenaman

Moderator
New home charger, now to get another EV as my main vehicle, maybe ID3 or Kona both with 300 mile range, not that it matters as much now I can charge at home.
 

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ufo550

Well-known Member
Interestingly, work place is going to have some 'fast' chargers installed. I've spoken to our electrical contractor, who will carry out a site visit next week. He has just completed his ev charging course.

Whilst on the course, they were told about a guy who fast charged his Tesla more often than not. However when his lease ended, and return the car, he was told the car had been fast charged too often, and the batteries were knackered and had to be replaced at his cost.

There's a rep coming from the charger company, be interesting to see whats recommended.
 

Thatsnotmynaim

Distinguished Member
I suspect there’s a bit of exspansion of the truth in there, most EVs sold in the UK (especially Tesla’s) come with battery conditioning that can cool and heat the batteries to ensure they maintain a good optimal working temperature to minimise degredation happening. That’s not to say it will do that 100% but it will greatly help and also all EVs in the UK come with a battery warranty that by law that must cover the battery health for a minimum of 8 years and guarantee the batteries will hold a minimum retention of 70% in thoise 8 years or the manufacturer is liable for replacing the batteries, either whole or enough cells to make it maintain 70% or above.
So far only car like the Leaf and Zoe who’s early cars had no battery conditioning have suffered any serious issues, most EVs with battery conditioning just aren’t seeing the battery issues people had predicted. That's unless the cars been used to drive to the moon and back!!

Here's a report based on real data, a snip says :-

"In fact, Plug In America has been collecting data from hundreds of high-mileage Model S owners, and has built a database of battery degradation rates. They’ve found that the average Model S owner is experiencing a loss of only 2.3 miles of range for every 10,000 miles driven. Considering all Tesla vehicles offer more than 200 miles of range, an estimated loss of only 23 miles of range for every 100,000 miles of driving is very good."
 
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ufo550

Well-known Member
Interestingly, work place is going to have some 'fast' chargers installed. I've spoken to our electrical contractor, who will carry out a site visit next week. He has just completed his ev charging course.

Whilst on the course, they were told about a guy who fast charged his Tesla more often than not. However when his lease ended, and return the car, he was told the car had been fast charged too often, and the batteries were knackered and had to be replaced at his cost.

There's a rep coming from the charger company, be interesting to see whats recommended.
So an ev car turned up this week at work; we are changing our lease company, so looking at all the options for future. Guess how the boss charged the car :facepalm:

Had a drive in it, its a Mercedes EQC. Not really impressed with the ride, bit bumpy on country roads, but great over speed humps. Also opened the bonnet to see how much storage space there was, to find what looked like an ICE; apparently its a cooling system for the batteries, but no room for golf clubs!

A sales guy turned up with our contractor, and apparently the above situation will no longer happen because of the technologies involved.

For @AMc, car has been sat on charge during the day and at night, used by a few at night to review, and some town trips. We only seem to get just over half a tank.

We are getting some quotes for 3ph 7 & 22kW chargers, so might start a thread on how things progress.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
A sales guy turned up with our contractor, and apparently the above situation will no longer happen because of the technologies involved.

For @AMc, car has been sat on charge during the day and at night, used by a few at night to review, and some town trips. We only seem to get just over half a tank.
Could you clarify "what isn't happening"? and are you saying that using the 13A "granny" charger is only managing to keep it half charged? Thanks.
 

ufo550

Well-known Member
Could you clarify "what isn't happening"? and are you saying that using the 13A "granny" charger is only managing to keep it half charged? Thanks.
Thing is, leads run out of the widow, so can't be charged for security reasons overnight.

That said, its on charge all day sometimes, without being used and still doesn't seem to get fully charged.

I don't think its a good idea to rely on charging from a 13A socket, both for safety and practicality.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
Ah, I see, thanks.
 

sirbadger

Well-known Member
Thing is, leads run out of the widow, so can't be charged for security reasons overnight.

That said, its on charge all day sometimes, without being used and still doesn't seem to get fully charged.

I don't think its a good idea to rely on charging from a 13A socket, both for safety and practicality.
You're only going to get around 2.2kw from a granny charger and an EQC has an 80kwh (?) battery, so if you charge for 8 hours you'll struggle to get 25% charge.
 

sirbadger

Well-known Member
Yes I understand that; I was trying to make that point for the OP with my own first hand experience.
Sure, sorry, was just putting some numbers to it.

I have an XC40 recharge coming which would be similar to the EGC in terms of battery and range. I could live with a granny charger the majority of the time as I'd be doing less than 50 miles a day. I'm however opting to get a charge point for the odd occasion when I get home and the car wants more. My only headache is my garage only has a 16amp feed to it so that'll have to be upgraded which I imagine means a trench across the front garden..
 
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Thatsnotmynaim

Distinguished Member
A 7kw charger can also help with charging anxiety, I.e. you only have 25% but that’s ok as you’re not planning on going anywhere too far too soon, but then all of a sudden you need to go on an unexpected long journey… Before our 7kw was installed we used to get 25% overnight, so could take 2-3 days to charge from very low to full.
A 7kw install even if not 100% needed is safer (our granny charger plug used to get quite hot), waterproof and much simpler / convenient / easier. It will generally need to be planned and installed by a person with ev charger experience, or at least whoever does it will have to be able to plan it and consult those plans with your dno (ours was Western Power) in order to get permission from your dno for the install to go ahead. It’s not something a qualified sparky can just do in isolation, they must notify and get authorisation for the install from your dno. If the installer knows what they’re doing and what the dno like it should be routine, but if it’s someone who has no experience with getting authority from the dno that may add complications as may not know what they generally will or won’t accept.
 

ufo550

Well-known Member
Generally the DNO is unlikely to refuse installation.

However, you are required to inform them as said. If your supply is on the low side, and you have electric shower, oven, heating etc, you may well struggle. The DNO may be able to increase the size of the main fuse, but it is definitely worth while getting an authorised contractor, as well as getting the government grant.

The manufacturer who visited us the other week, suggested at the moment, our government is using carrot approach to get people buying ev's. However, they think it won't be long before they start using the stick approach.

At this point when everyone is having ev chargers installed at home (single phase), is where the infrastructure may start being a bit fragile, thats when there might be some intervention from the DNO, and throttling back or controlling chargers overnight. We shall see.
 

noiseboy72

Distinguished Member
I think we'll see smart charging and demand side response tariffs to reward off peak charging and returning power to the grid where required. We still generate a lot more energy at night than we need, so it will take a while until we need start restricting power.
 

ufo550

Well-known Member
I think we'll see smart charging and demand side response tariffs to reward off peak charging and returning power to the grid where required. We still generate a lot more energy at night than we need, so it will take a while until we need start restricting power.
Back to the days of Economy 7!

I hope we don't see the days of restrictions, but who know's where we will be in years to come, with more reliance on electricity for heating & cooking; then adding ev cars to the mix.
 

noiseboy72

Distinguished Member
Back to the days of Economy 7!

I hope we don't see the days of restrictions, but who know's where we will be in years to come, with more reliance on electricity for heating & cooking; then adding ev cars to the mix.
Yep, having to plug in your Tesla to use its battery pack to boil your kettle in morning!!
 

AMc

Distinguished Member
You're only going to get around 2.2kw from a granny charger and an EQC has an 80kwh (?) battery, so if you charge for 8 hours you'll struggle to get 25% charge.

Yes I understand that; I was trying to make that point for the OP with my own first hand experience.

Thanks but there is a big difference between the 80kWh battery in a pure EV and the 8.7kWh battery in my hybrid Golf GTE ;)
My car will go from 0 miles to it's maximum of 26 miles in 3 hours on a 10A charger plugged into the wall.
Even on a 7kW charger it won't charge much faster - it's not built to take it. It knocks about 45mins off that time.
As I'm in no hurry there's not much point.

If I had a large battery pure EV I would be going for the fastest charger I can install but at the moment it's a lot of expense for very little benefit.
 

AMc

Distinguished Member
Whilst on the course, they were told about a guy who fast charged his Tesla more often than not. However when his lease ended, and return the car, he was told the car had been fast charged too often, and the batteries were knackered and had to be replaced at his cost.

Are you sure he hadn't been playing with ludicrous mode a little too much?
Some Teslas can be "unlocked" to go much faster from a standing start at the expense of the life time of the battery pack. The videos I remember seeing showed the car warned you about that when engaging so I can see how you could hold the driver responsible.
 

noiseboy72

Distinguished Member
Are you sure he hadn't been playing with ludicrous mode a little too much?
Some Teslas can be "unlocked" to go much faster from a standing start at the expense of the life time of the battery pack. The videos I remember seeing showed the car warned you about that when engaging so I can see how you could hold the driver responsible.
It's really no different to an ICE in that respect.

Drive a petrol car like you stole it all the time and things wear out much quicker. Use poor consumables and oil other than in accordance with the manufacturer's specifications and they won't honour the warranty.
 

sirbadger

Well-known Member
Thanks but there is a big difference between the 80kWh battery in a pure EV and the 8.7kWh battery in my hybrid Golf GTE ;)
My car will go from 0 miles to it's maximum of 26 miles in 3 hours on a 10A charger plugged into the wall.
Even on a 7kW charger it won't charge much faster - it's not built to take it. It knocks about 45mins off that time.
As I'm in no hurry there's not much point.

If I had a large battery pure EV I would be going for the fastest charger I can install but at the moment it's a lot of expense for very little benefit.
Yes, if you've only got 8.7kwh to fill it's a different matter, we went off topic with regards to pure ev.
 

AMc

Distinguished Member
If I had a pure EV then I wouldn't even be asking the question I'd have had the fastest charger I can installed as soon as possible :)

As it stands I have a big renovation planned and rearrange the driveway - at that point I may well get a dedicated charger installed anyway as I doubt this will be the last car I need to plug in.
 

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