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changed my system....many thought for the worst

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by fred123go, Mar 10, 2004.

  1. fred123go

    fred123go
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    hey,
    i recently 'downgraded' so to say from a seperates, lexicon dc-2/rotel 1075/rotel 1070, to a pioneer ax10i. same money involved as the pioneer was the same as when i sold all my kit. so far i have used the same speakers
    i have had about 7 hours listening and i am not convinced that my move was a bad one. I think the processing of the pioneer is better, used thx ultra2/thx ex/dd ex/dts es, and it just seems that steering is better than the lexicon. i don't know what it is, but i have seen the same films and the processing part is better,

    Next up stereo performance, what an improvement. the lexicon is pretty crap in stereo, i just accepted it before, but when listening to music in stereo everything was better. Excuse my comments but they are what i think.
    Amplification-probably the thing i was most worried about, especially with the M&K's. but amplification is pretty good. not as good as say the rotels, very marginal difference, but it is definately very good. much better than say my old 2011.
    remote-i love it.nuff said.
    Looks-the pioneer is such a lovely piece of kit and is so much more appealing than two chunky power amplifiers and the horrid lexicon.
    so overall i am very happy with my move to 'downgrade' and have achieved very good results.
    my next and probably most risky downgrade is from the M&K's to the kef 5005's :clown: i don't think they will live upto the M&K's but they will suit my room.
    cheers
    fred
     
  2. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    Not making any judgement on your downgrade, but I would say that any judgements you make on your "downgrade" are bound to be biased, without being able to do an A/B comparison or even better a blind test between your old setup and your new one..

    No one would want to admit to having swapped to a worse setup afterall.

    I personally think you've made a good choice so far if you don't mind going the intergrated route, I wish I had the money for a AX10i, but on the speaker change? Not so sure, keep the speakers till you move out and find somewhere better suited to them...

    Ryan :smashin:
     
  3. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    And I feel MCACC played no small part in this fred - we all know what your 'Calibrating by ear' skills are like ;).
     
  4. buns

    buns
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    Plus it is exceptionally easy to convince yourself that a change is an improvement......

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  5. fred123go

    fred123go
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    the reason i made this change was to get less boxes, make my system more simple and more desirable, be upto date and not suffer much of a loss of sound quality.
    there is a lot of exaggeration on this website about certain equipment, i am guilty of it when i first got my equipment and i had nothing to compare it with. Now that i have heard the ultra high end, high end, mid end and low end i am very satisfied with my present system and believe for the money i will have to spend a lot more to get a noticeable change in performance
    rscott-obviously i haven't managed to do A/B comparisons but i do remember distinctly what my old system was like. Also i have already sold my M&K's and picking up the KEF's some time next week, well still have M&K's till sunday and they sound great with the pioneer.shame i am losing them
    fred
     
  6. rags

    rags
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    What specifically are you referring to in your old set up?
     
  7. Stereo Steve

    Stereo Steve
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    He hasn't downgraded, he's still go tht the 1075 despite selling it weeks ago:D

    Only joking Fred.

    Seriously, I have listened to the Lex you had and would have to agree with your sentiments. It's not great as a music system which is what I prize most. I doubt the 1075 and 1070 offer much above the power section in your AX10, as you say.

    I have just sold a Tag AV32R and got a Rotel 1066 in order to be able to afford a good power amp (if it ever turns up:D ). I must say, the Tag was bloody mavelous and I'm missing it now.

    In a demo in a shop I rated the 1066 as very close but now I have one, it's lacking somewhat. Still, I'll get another Tag some day soon. The worst thing about the 1066 (and 1055 I had before)? The 5.1 bypass. It's 'muddy' and dull. Still very good but compared to the Tag, lacks sparkle and a sense of spaciousness.

    Not what the reviewers said at all:suicide:
     
  8. Smurfin

    Smurfin
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    Anyone know any real world figures for the power amps in the AX10? I'd be very surprised indeed if they were as competent as the 2 Rotels mentioned. As for the Lexicon's processing - well at this level all differences are marginal compared to a low-end change, but I'd choose the Lexicon any day of the week:smashin:

    Still if you're happy Fred then that's what matters:) (though your post does smack of trying to convince yourself rather than us:D )

    PS I agree on the Lex for music though...it's not very good imho.
     
  9. Stereo Steve

    Stereo Steve
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    Oh I reckon the Rotels are better amps but could you honestly hear the difference to that degree? It all depends on what you are trying to achieve and we all have constraints with space, money, aesthetics etc.

    I reckon the AX10 will be as good as anything up to an AV32R with competent power. Personally I have downgraded my pocessor in order to obtain a good, balanced pro/power combo. Hopefully will return to Tag processing soon.
     
  10. buns

    buns
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    i think we need to qualify things here and state 'with middle ground speakers'. There is no prayer that any integrated is going to have a hope when we are talking about big and hard loads. I suspect with smaller speakers it could be right that the AX10 does a very similar job

    Horses for courses

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  11. Stereo Steve

    Stereo Steve
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    Yes, true. Of course, the power and control of a dedicated amp will show up with heavy loads. With something like my Ruarks, it's unlikely to make a massive difference, although I'm hoping an audible one.
     
  12. Ettepet

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    fred, I'm reminded of my own situation a year ago. Everyone around me thought that Rotel was superior to Pioneer, or at least preferable because you could easily upgrade the pre-amplifier or power amplifier later.

    My conclusion was/is that of the Rotel combo (1060+1095) only the power amp was any good, but not better than the ax10 (it might have less trouble with difficult speakers, sure). The 1060 was very poor on features when compared to the Pioneer. Furthermore the Rotel combo was more expensive (to me), ugly looking, and overly "warm" sounding, so this "seperates" approach didn't make much sense to me.

    I am very happy with my choice, and it is nice to see other manufacturers have since copied many of the Pioneer ax10's features.
     
  13. Ettepet

    Ettepet
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    Having read most of the other replies here, I would say that this feeling of Rotel superiority is misplaced, as the 1075 is straight out inferior to the Pioneer, soundwise.
     
  14. fred123go

    fred123go
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    this post was just to give my opinion of how the change went, specifications/figures/processing aside i prefer my pioneer to the lex/rotel set up anyday. Aesthetically and soudn wise and with my KEF'S i am sure my system will sound brill.
    Forgot to mention that using the MCACC 9 band thingy my servo is sounding better in every area
    I do agree however that the rotel 1075/1070 are probably better power amplifiers then the ones on the rotel but i can't hear any difference on these m&k's that are a hard 4 ohm load to drive.
    any case i am very happy with my mood and probably going to get the 868 with the i-link when they are cheaper to accomodate my very nice ax10i.
    steve amp is on its way today, :)as i said since i am a student it is very very hard to post and i said you had to be prepared to wait. thanks for your patience though. Also i am never sending anything again courier services are so useless :(
    fred
     
  15. buns

    buns
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    gosh thats a bit hard.... while i dont for a moment think that the 1075 is the best power amp out there, i think myself and most others experienced in this area will disagree with you strongly here.

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  16. Smurfin

    Smurfin
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    What do you base that statement on?
     
  17. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    I'd ask the same question.

    The 1075 isn't the best poweramp in the world, but there's no doubting it's capaibilities are beyond those in pretty much ANY one box amp I can think of, especially the AX10i (which itself is inferior to the likes of Harman Kardon and Denon).

    I'd love to see your own lab tests results for dynamic and continuous power outputs of both amp, aswell as current delivery, distortion levels and some measure of speaker tolerance.
     
  18. Stereo Steve

    Stereo Steve
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    You're saying the Pio sounds better on it's own than with a a 1075 connected to the pre-outs? I doubt that very much although I doubt many people would be able to tell much difference. I'm sure even Fred would agree that the 1075 does a better job but it's all down to space, aesthetics and, of course, money.

    Fred has the system he wants and in many ways, an integrated is very attractive and I'm sure the AX10i is up there with some good combo's.

    The reason I prefer pro/ power is that I have a large cabinet where it is all hidden and it means I can just change the processor or the power amp each time I upgrade until I reach my target point (Tag DP and Bryston 5 channel). I'm sure there is no receiver in the world that can match that pair.
     
  19. Ettepet

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    I base that upon my own listening experience and comparison between these (Pioneer ax10 and Rotel 1075/1095). And I have read several tests and reviews rating the surround & stereo sound qualities of even the 1095 below or on-par of that of the Pioneer. We're talking sound quality here, not lab test electrical properties, as I'm sure the Rotel 1095 can drive difficult speakers better.

    I could quote the magazines "Stereoplay" and "Video", but as they're both of German origin you might not know them. It is not that I have all these tests scattered around the appartment you know, but I have several. :)

    I took the trouble of comparing these models. Did any of you actually listen to a properly setup Pioneer? :confused:
     
  20. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Well then there's your problem - german magazines ;). The german's listen to hi-fi in the same way they make cars - clinically :p.

    You can say what you like about lab tests meaning nothing with regards to actual sound quality. But I've most certainately found in recent weeks the very opposite to be true. IMHO, poweramps are the ONLY equipment where labs tests will always tell you how well they perform.
     
  21. Andywilliams

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    Hi Ettepet
    Your doing a great job of winding everybody up on the forums:D do you like a good squabble
    Gonzo.
     
  22. Ettepet

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    I hate biased group thinking, if that's what you mean.. :D


    I would prefer the term 'clarity', as I don't want my high's and lows collored but (if possible) transparent. Something a future upgrade to Arcam or better might provide.
     
  23. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Yes, I bet the German magazines loved MCACC too didn't they? And inistsed that equalised speakers sounded better?

    I can just picture it now. Did they get tone controls involved too? And do they hate THX-Post Processing for taking the brightness off of soundtracks?

    Ze germans and their hi-fi ey!?
     
  24. buns

    buns
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    I could accept an arguement that the pio could come close to the 1075..... but the 1095 is a totally different story.

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  25. Stereo Steve

    Stereo Steve
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    I admit I have never heard an AX10 which is why I've said 'I would have thought' and 'I doubt' all along. I have heard a 1075 on an Arcam AV8 and it sounded glorious to me.


    Anyway, each to their own. I hate group thinking too but there is common sense in most consensus. Like an AX10 is better than an AX5.
     
  26. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Yes, it is a rather overly-ambitious claim. If one were to consider the AX10i's amplification to be superior to either the 1075 or - for some insane reason - the 1095 then might I suggest that they were listening through a less than transparent processor? :D
     
  27. Ettepet

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    As I admitted I didn't very much like the Rotel sound, and I guess the reviewers I mentioned didn't either. The 1095 sounded much better in this regard than the 1075.

    Each to his own indeed, and it may be the reason I prefer the German magazines above What Hifi, etc. :)
    ---

    But on topic again: fred, I just read the description of the M&K 750's, and I wonder if they didn't seem overly bright for the Pioneer, what with the focus on "SHARP IMAGING" through "THE M&K HIGH-FREQUENCY PRISM SYSTEM"?
     
  28. fred123go

    fred123go
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    no the high-frequency prism thing helps disperse the sound more, tbh it is a load of crap. just a curbed mesh type cover and they claim it is highly advanced or something
    The M&K's are by trade mark quite 'sharp' speakers, but i think it is the detail they give. if the source is rubbish they will show it up-coupled with the right electronics they are brilliant speakers especially for the price-recently heard the s-150's. and yes everyone i know with different components/room/material but i wasn't overally impressed.
    to me the M&K sound good with the ax10i, possibly better with the pioneer-debatable. but now i have one box instead of 3, a lovely remote and soon 5 lovely kefs ;)
    fred
     
  29. Smurfin

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    That remote again...:p
     
  30. Ettepet

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    I'm interested in how your new Kefs will sound. Am looking to replace my 7 year old JBL speakerset. Maybe some affordable B&W 703 clones that came to my attention very recently (link 1, link 2).
     

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