CES VIDEO: Is Dolby Vision the Dynamic HDR Winner in 2019?

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by Phil Hinton, Jan 10, 2019.


    1. Phil Hinton

      Phil Hinton
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    2. MEGATAMA

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      I like to watch Dolby Vision shows and movies on Netflix,very nice picture in most cases.LG B7 here
       
    3. dr no

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      Does Dolby Vision have any real competition?
       
    4. MEGATAMA

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      Maybe HDR10+ in future.
       
    5. dr no

      dr no
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      I’m not too sure about that. TLTTP
      Especially now that stubborn Panasonic have given in as well.
       
    6. chris1000

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      @Phil Hinton
      I feel you missed an opportunity to put some fundamental questions to Dolby on behalf of your readers, for example...
      1. Many Avforum members have suffered with the elevated black issue with Dolby Vision.
      2. Many Avforum members are confused that Sony has a new version of Dolby Vision that is not guaranteed to work with other equipment labelled Dolby Vision.
      It's not a dig... well it is dig... :) Dolby Vision is great, but it's as a format it's a bit of mess?
       
    7. BrightonChris

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      Still waiting to see a side by side evaluation against plain old HDR10. Does it actually offer noticeable differences at all?
       
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    8. MEGATAMA

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      If future TVs support all the HDR formats for as would be irelevant how many of them it is.
      I m happy with DV and HDR10 on my OLED for now.
       
    9. Goldorak

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      Hopefully in the future, the TVs will reach 4000 nits and take altogether the need of dynamic metadata.
      Until then, dv is welcome especially for below 1000 nits sets across the board (good tone mapping needed too)
       
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    10. MEGATAMA

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      Future will also bring 10000nits content i think we even have some already like GT Sports game....
       
    11. lgans316

      lgans316
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      I would say the best DV films offer a 2-3% improvement over vanilla HDR10 but you have to do an A-B (freeze frame) to discern those subtle differences.
       
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      Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
    12. mark800

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      It's probably a bit like comparing compressed Dolby Digital audio with Dolby TrueHD lossless audio. Some people won't care, but there's lots of AV enthusiasts that will - even if there's a small difference. Whatever the exact improvement, the main point is that it's technically superior and, therefore, moves the industry forward.
       
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    13. lgans316

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      Correct. It is indeed superior spec wise but we still haven't heard about 12-bit panels which means DV is way future proofed but I doubt if the normal folks care about these. It is always us folks in the forum who get excited for pretty much everything lol.

      Sadly this CES has been smokes and mirrors as far as TV tech is concerned.
       
    14. Goldorak

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      Nice to have you back in the forum Sir
      Anything you see and like ;);):hiya:
       
    15. Soundizer

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    16. Coulson

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      Yes it does. For discs it really depends on the disc and the TV you are using it on. For the most part with a bright LED TV it doesn't make that much difference (Black Panther is one of the few exceptions which look much better with DV). For OLED it makes much more of a difference because of the limited brightness range. For streaming it seems to make the biggest difference. I would guess this is because it helps to mitigate the issues caused by limited bandwidth.
       
    17. Coulson

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      I think that's where a lot of tech reviewers are. When they say they see a difference it's because they are looking for it. Ironically DV might be best suited to mid range TVs in order to produce the best picture quality possible for that TV.
       
    18. BAMozzy

      BAMozzy
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      Dynamic Metadata will have diminishing value. The more a TV has to tone-map content down, the more value Dynamic Metadata offers so if we do see a TV that has no need to tone-map, Dynamic Metadata is pointless.

      If we got 10000nit TV's, Dynamic Metadata would offer nothing at all because every scene will be displayed as the content was mastered. HDR10 and HDR10+ would look the same so you have NO need of HDR10+ at all - unless we some 'update' that adds other enhancements like a 12bit colour depth.

      The more a TV has to tone-map, the more advantageous dynamic metadata can be - but not with 'every' scene. The brightest scenes would look the same regardless because they would tone map the content down the same. Most Tone Mapping curves follow the curve up to a certain point - say 100nits, and then roll off so any scene that doesn't go above 100nits will be the same too. If you have a 400nit TV that follows the curve up to a 100nits and then rolls off to fit 1000nit content without clipping, a scene that's only 400nits may only hit 200nits - the 100-400nit areas compressed down to 100-200nits and thus the highlights lack some punch. With Dynamic Metadata, that could be displayed with no tone mapping because it fits within the range of the TV. A 1500nit TV though wouldn't need to tone map at all so HDR10+ and HDR10 versions would be identical. With DV, you may get some advantage from the 12bit colour depth. A HDR10 1500nit TV would be better optimised than a 400nit TV with HDR10+ because all the 1000nit content would be displayed at 1:1. It would be better optimised with 4000nit content too as it could display up to 500nits at 1:1 and then roll off from their 500-1500nits for 500-4000nit content.

      As such, I see HDR10+ as a 'short term' fix for those people who don't want to invest in super bright TV's. DV at the moment looks like it has something to offer - even if the Dynamic Metadata aspect offers nothing to some users who have TV's that don't need to tone-map.

      Whilst I am not quite ready for 8k myself yet, I still want HDMI2.1. I see a lot of comments that it only benefits 8k or gamers because movies/TV won't need VRR or HFR. However it can benefit Video/Audiophiles too because of eARC - passing lossless audio (inc Atmos) through a TV has a lot of advantages. If you AVR supports eARC, you won't need to replace it if/when you upgrade to 8k for example like many have had to do when they upgraded to 4k because their AVR couldn't pass 4k, HDR etc through the Amp. Even if you own one now that can pass 4k HDR, you may not get VRR, HDR and HFR combined so have to either sacrifice Atmos for VRR or go without VRR to get Atmos - that's the case now with Xbox One X because the 'only' TV's with VRR doesn't have eARC. You lose out on Lossless audio for VRR. eARC also offers Lip Sync Correction so you will never have to manually try and tweak the audio delays to align with the action. I have had issues when 20ms isn't enough but 40ms is too much - I need ~30ms but don't have that option - won't be an issue with eARC!

      I know eARC can be offered on HDMI2.0 but as a gamer too, I want Atmos, VRR, HFR 4k HDR at least 10bit all simultaneously...
       
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    19. shoestring25

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      they are just too late out with HDR10+ content
       
    20. BAMozzy

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      I don't think so. I do think they could have been much quicker with this - maybe even had it ready at the start of the HDR era but as a lot of 'early' HDR TV's don't seem capable of being updated to support HDR10+, its only the early adopters that are missing out - like they are likely to miss out on HLG - but at least still get HDR10. A lot of the 2017 TV's sold support it though.

      Whilst they are still making TV's that do need to tone-map, it still as a place. Arguably, Manufacturers could have come up with a software solution like LG have but it could benefit content makers.

      There is 'some' advantage to HDR10 over HDR10+ - consistency! If you have a 500nit TV for example, the HDR10 content will be 'consistent' and by that I mean that if the tone mapping curve says that 500nit areas will be at 300nits, then it will be @ 300nits consistently throughout. With Dynamic tone-mapping, that could be anywhere between 300 and 500nits. Dynamic Metadata at least can keep it consistent through a scene for example as it won't change the tone mapping until it receives the next instruction. If it was constantly assessing the picture and adjusting the tone mapping, you could see the mid-brights dim because of a sudden brightness increase else where - an explosion for example in a movie that is say a 1000nits at its brightest points could see the 100-500nit areas all suddenly dim to 100-300nits and then brighten back up again as the explosion fades away. With Static Metadata, it would stay more consistent - albeit dimmer. If the Dynamic Metadata was set at the start of that scene/Act and had accounted for the 1000nits, then that whole scene/Act wouldn't look any different regardless of whether you have HDR10 or HDR10+ - assuming the whole movie never goes above 1000nits anyway.

      It serves a purpose but for some, the benefits will be negligible and, if manufacturers do manage to deliver TV's that don't need to tone map at all - right now that would be a 4000nit capable TV, then HDR10+ is pointless to those that buy these TV's BUT for any that are still buying (relatively) low brightness HDR TV's it will be relevant and until the majority of these are no longer in peoples homes, HDR10+ will serve a purpose.

      It obviously has advantages for Studio's and content makers too - being open source - but they won't need it for ever either - assuming TV manufacturers can make HDR TV's throughout their range that don't need to tone-map and that these are in peoples homes. For those of us who may well be looking to upgrade as soon as these TV's become available, HDR10+ may well be irrelevant much sooner but there will be a LOT of owners who will buy lower end HDR TV's that will benefit from HDR10+ and won't necessarily upgrade until that TV breaks down....
       
    21. Soundizer

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      "eARC - passing lossless audio (inc Atmos) through a TV has a lot of advantages."

      Yes absolutely. I found this out after much frustration.
      Why my Apple tv4k was not passing thru Atmos to the Soundbar. Finally after reading about limited HDMI 2.0 capability I connected my Apple TV4K directly to Sound Bar.


      However, think about average Joe Bloggs who will never know they are not actually receiving Atmos from Apple TV4K into AV RECEIVER/SOUNDBAR, because they connected the Apple TV4K directly into TV.
       
    22. invisiblekid

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      It certainly can do, but if you had a choice of a non DV Panasonic, it probably would not be a decider for me.

      All I can say is the only chance I had to try DV vs HDR10 was also with an LCD and OLED. I have Despicable me 3 on iTunes. While the TV difference is huge, I'm certain some scenes the TV made little difference. When there was any water scenes with the bright white water splashes from waves or the jet ski things, on the old LCD they were just blobs of overblown whites. With DV on the OLED there were perfectly defined. The LCD was calibrated and so the nit level would around the same as the OLED, possibly a bit less.

      As has been mentioned, the less a TV has to tone map, the less we'll need DV or HDR10+, but I'm unsure of the limits of HDR10, so to reach the limits of whats on the disc in the future ie 4K+ nits, 12 bit panels, you may need DV or HDR10+ to get the best out of the film anyway.
       

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