CES 2020 Preview: What to expect - news discussion

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Heard about a few mini LED monitors on the way.
Can we expect more Mini LED TV's from Sony or from other brands? TCL needs some competition.
 
I agree about the GZ2000, I think it's Panasonic's attempt to make the ultimate consumer OLED and I personally believe it succeeded. So it makes sense to simply continue it into 2020, because what else can they add?

A 77 inch 'panel only' model would be nice.
 
As for brightness, it looks like 1,000nits peak and 160nits full field is the limit of OLED.

It isn´t...




In 2020 expect also much better motion performance with OLED.


I had my OLED serviced for a dead pixel and the tech said expect 240Hz panels next year.

Sorry the tech I talked to saw a slide for 2020 features (at LG) that stated 240 Hz. He didn’t not specify if it’s native or not. When he comes back to replace my panel I will ask specifically.

 
It isn´t...




In 2020 expect also much better motion performance with OLED.


That slide seems to suggest a slight increase from 160 to 200nits, which would tie-in with comments that Danny Tack at Philips made in his recent AVForums interview. My interpretation of the 2022 statistics is that they relate to Quantum Dot OLED, which offers the potential to extend OLEDs performance, but two years is a long time these days.
 
Inkjet printed OLED's
 
That slide seems to suggest a slight increase from 160 to 200nits, which would tie-in with comments that Danny Tack at Philips made in his recent AVForums interview. My interpretation of the 2022 statistics is that they relate to Quantum Dot OLED, which offers the potential to extend OLEDs performance, but two years is a long time these days.
I don't think that it is QD-OLED.

Instead, the slides show the use of a TADF (Thermally Activated Delayed Flourescent) OLED emitter compound.

Basically, at the moment blue OLED emitter compounds are less efficient than the red and green compounds. This is why LG have two BLUE emitters in the stack.

TADF compounds promise blue emitters with much higher levels of efficiency and lifespan. This is why in the slide for 2022 is shows a single blue emitter labelled TADF.

TADF emitters are under development by companies such as Kyulux and CYNORA. The issue appears to be getting a deep blue colour that is efficient and has a long lifespan.

The following is from

"In May 2017, CYNORA announced the result of a sky blue OLED with ... a LT95 at 750 cd/m2 of around 190 hours. This was an important milestone on the way to an efficient deep blue TADF emitter. Before this result, TADF lifetimes LT95 for sky blue and deep blue had usually been in the minutes.

In December of the same year, CYNORA could build highly efficient OLED devices... with a deep blue TADF emitter .... However, the device lifetime in this system was also reduced ... to 30 hours."

LT95 at 750 cd/m2 of 30 hours - means if the display shows a brightness of 750 nits then its peak brightness will fall by 5% after just 30 hours. (And that was regarded as a good result.)
 
For what i read samsung will go for 2 stack blue emitters, then quantum dots layer on top. This apparently will alone the blue not to be driven as hard and more higher efficiency. Not sure how brighter these sets will be. But the early charts show better colour volume.
 
I don't think that it is QD-OLED.

Instead, the slides show the use of a TADF (Thermally Activated Delayed Flourescent) OLED emitter compound.

Basically, at the moment blue OLED emitter compounds are less efficient than the red and green compounds. This is why LG have two BLUE emitters in the stack.

TADF compounds promise blue emitters with much higher levels of efficiency and lifespan. This is why in the slide for 2022 is shows a single blue emitter labelled TADF.

TADF emitters are under development by companies such as Kyulux and CYNORA. The issue appears to be getting a deep blue colour that is efficient and has a long lifespan.

The following is from

"In May 2017, CYNORA announced the result of a sky blue OLED with ... a LT95 at 750 cd/m2 of around 190 hours. This was an important milestone on the way to an efficient deep blue TADF emitter. Before this result, TADF lifetimes LT95 for sky blue and deep blue had usually been in the minutes.

In December of the same year, CYNORA could build highly efficient OLED devices... with a deep blue TADF emitter .... However, the device lifetime in this system was also reduced ... to 30 hours."

LT95 at 750 cd/m2 of 30 hours - means if the display shows a brightness of 750 nits then its peak brightness will fall by 5% after just 30 hours. (And that was regarded as a good result.)
There’s a lot of tech flying around at the moment - QD-OLED, Dual LED and Micro LED, it’ll be interesting to see what actually makes it to market and when.
 
For what i read samsung will go for 2 stack blue emitters, then quantum dots layer on top. This apparently will alone the blue not to be driven as hard and more higher efficiency. Not sure how brighter these sets will be. But the early charts show better colour volume.
Having a stack of 2 blue emitters will essentially be the same as LG 4 layer stack with Blue+Red+Green+Blue (again)

One point I would like to know about LG's OLED is whether there is any individual control of the output of each emitter within the stack. I have always assumed that there is not. For example, if you want a bright red colour then I assume that all 4 emitters within the stack are illuminated brightly to produce all three primaries - red-green and blue. The red colour filter then blocks out the blue and green light - leaving just the red to pass through. That means that 3 of the 4 emitters were producing light that never leaves the screen - which is inefficient.

(LG's OLEDs have 4 sub-pixels RGBW - so in practice, to produce bright red colour both the red sub pixel and the white sub pixel would be illuminated. The white sub pixel presumably has no colour filter above it - to allow the red, green and blue to combine as white.)

QD should be much more efficient. To produce a bright red, the two blue emitters in the stack for the red sub-pixel are illuminated. The QD layer in the red sub-pixel absorbs the blue wavelength light and re-emits it as a red wavelength. This would seem to be a much more efficient.

This extra efficiency should translate to a brighter screen with a longer lifespan.

The big unknown is whether QD-OLED will make enough of a difference to effectively eliminate issues of OLED burn-in for domestic use at least.
 
There’s a lot of tech flying around at the moment - QD-OLED, Dual LED and Micro LED, it’ll be interesting to see what actually makes it to market and when.
Interesting times. In the near future we could have multiple screen technologies all on sale at the same time - such as inkjet printed OLEDs from JOLED (Panasonic and Sony), Dual LED (Panasonic's woefully named "MegaCon") QD-OLED from Samsung, Micro LED from Samsung (and others?)

I assume that each will have its own benefits and trade offs - and price level.

Steve - is 2020 the breakout year as all these technologies seem to have been just over the horizon for a couple of years?
 
Having a stack of 2 blue emitters will essentially be the same as LG 4 layer stack with Blue+Red+Green+Blue (again)

One point I would like to know about LG's OLED is whether there is any individual control of the output of each emitter within the stack. I have always assumed that there is not. For example, if you want a bright red colour then I assume that all 4 emitters within the stack are illuminated brightly to produce all three primaries - red-green and blue. The red colour filter then blocks out the blue and green light - leaving just the red to pass through. That means that 3 of the 4 emitters were producing light that never leaves the screen - which is inefficient.

(LG's OLEDs have 4 sub-pixels RGBW - so in practice, to produce bright red colour both the red sub pixel and the white sub pixel would be illuminated. The white sub pixel presumably has no colour filter above it - to allow the red, green and blue to combine as white.)

QD should be much more efficient. To produce a bright red, the two blue emitters in the stack for the red sub-pixel are illuminated. The QD layer in the red sub-pixel absorbs the blue wavelength light and re-emits it as a red wavelength. This would seem to be a much more efficient.

This extra efficiency should translate to a brighter screen with a longer lifespan.

The big unknown is whether QD-OLED will make enough of a difference to effectively eliminate issues of OLED burn-in for domestic use at least.
QD-OLED will definitely reduce the risk of burn in and colour shifting, as it's only using one organic material. We should point out that samsung really likes to market brightness and colour volume, and QD-OLED is hitting well over 100 dci ps3 colour coverage. Probably with WOLED is dilutes colours.

Samsung wasn't never going down that road. How will QD-OLED works in practice, I'm not sure, until we get more info from Samsung we will know more. So lets hope at CES
 
Will we see any more development of U-LED from HiSense? That sounded promising and near-term.
 
Interesting times. In the near future we could have multiple screen technologies all on sale at the same time - such as inkjet printed OLEDs from JOLED (Panasonic and Sony), Dual LED (Panasonic's woefully named "MegaCon") QD-OLED from Samsung, Micro LED from Samsung (and others?)

I assume that each will have its own benefits and trade offs - and price level.

Steve - is 2020 the breakout year as all these technologies seem to have been just over the horizon for a couple of years?
It could be, but in the last decade I have seen so many prototypes and closed-door demos, and most of that tech never made it to market. At the end of the day, it always comes down to price.
 
I wonder if LG will ever be able to push OLED through the 1000nit level. They seem to be stuck on around 700nits, perhaps at the limit of what the tech can ever deliver.

That said as I watch movies in the dark I'm perfectly content with my now rather antique 700nit B7. If it had eARC and VFR it would really do everything I ever need.

One area where I would like to see huge improvements however is in PC displays. HDR in any form is still incredibly rare, with most of the "HDR" PC monitors on offer topping out at 300 or 400nits. The few displays that can hit 1000nits are saddled with ridiculous price points (well north of £2000 for a 34" screen) and a comically low number of FALD zones. Sorry LCD makers, 500 isn't enough. Add a couple of zeros to the end and it might be worth it. My OLED has over 8 million dimming zones, so try harder.
If your B7 is an antique already, what is my B6? LOL.
 
In post #42 Mr Withers said:
I agree with you on the ZD9 and DX902, they're still superb LCD TVs.
Oh, you are too kind about the Sony ZD9 Mr Withers sir, I still think that mine is fantastic, even on just Freeview HD channels, I'm watching Newsnight on BBC2 HD now. (In fact it's surprisingly good even with Standard Definition Freeview channels.) By the way, let's not forget the Samsung JS9500 LCD television from Samsung as the third great (and all with active-shutter 3D) LCD television from the year 2016. Nor the LG passive 3D OLEDs from 2016, like the 65E6.
 
Are the ZD9 1800 nits still beyond Samsung flagship capabilities? There's a 75zd9 in my household and if it wasn't for the very noticeable blooming my eyes prefer the image to oled.
 
In post #42 Mr Withers said:
Oh, you are too kind about the Sony ZD9 Mr Withers sir, I still think that mine is fantastic, even on just Freeview HD channels, I'm watching Newsnight on BBC2 HD now. (In fact it's surprisingly good even with Standard Definition Freeview channels.) By the way, let's not forget the Samsung JS9500 LCD television from Samsung as the third great (and all with active-shutter 3D) LCD television from the year 2016. Nor the LG passive 3D OLEDs from 2016, like the 65E6.

Are the ZD9 1800 nits still beyond Samsung flagship capabilities? There's a 75zd9 in my household and if it wasn't for the very noticeable blooming my eyes prefer the image to oled.

As a 65ZD9 owner I still think that the best upgrade option may be a 75ZD9. (If only I could get hold of one - and assuming that I can persuade my wife that a 75" is reasonable.)
 
As a 65ZD9 owner I still think that the best upgrade option may be a 75ZD9. (If only I could get hold of one - and assuming that I can persuade my wife that a 75" is reasonable.)

Ah, the old wife versus equipment problem. I have no wife, which allows me to have three 75" televisions - the two in my signature plus a Sony KDL-75W855C, which alternates with my Samsung television in the kitchen on a yearly basis.
 
I expect almost nothing on the consumer affordable TV front besides the usual incremental upgrades and the same old marketing BS.
Me neither. TVs are becoming a niche market like every other tech product. Went to Costco, salesman didn't bother too much to ask for my needs, I was immediately redirected to the top of line LG OLED panel. And of course first sale arguments were: "best for the gamer in you" "at last you'll watch sports the right way". Gee I'm no gamer and the only sport I watch on TV is WWE and some MMA. So f...ng tired of these kids sale representatives.
 
I know this 'preview' was mainly about TV technology - but in my system the oldest box is my FreeSat Box?
Would it be too much to hope of seeing a Freeview Box that would handle 4K channels by the time of the Summer Olympics?
FreeSat Recorder news and updates seem to be very rare nowadays - unless oneone knows different?
Cheers
the bbc will probably shovel the Olympics 4k content via iplayer rather than a dedicated sat channel.
 
I wonder if LG will ever be able to push OLED through the 1000nit level. They seem to be stuck on around 700nits, perhaps at the limit of what the tech can ever deliver.

That said as I watch movies in the dark I'm perfectly content with my now rather antique 700nit B7. If it had eARC and VFR it would really do everything.

One area where I would like to see huge improvements however is in PC displays. HDR in any form is still incredibly rare, with most of the "HDR" PC monitors on offer topping out at 300 or 400nits. The few displays that can hit 1000nits are saddled with ridiculous moviebox price points (well north of £2000 for a 34" screen) and a comically low number of FALD zones. Sorry LCD makers, 500 isn't enough. Add a couple of zeros to the end and it might be worth it. My OLED has over 8 million dimming zones, so try harder.

I Bought HDR Monitor last week, however, I don't know much about those technical things. That monitor has quality image reselution than my old one. I think I got something from your post, Thank you very much moviebox.
 
Looks like we will see prototypes qantum oled from Samsung via closed doors
French website and just one picture
 
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