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CES 2018: Sony talk AF8 OLED, XF90 LCD and 10,000nits TV

Discussion in 'Sony TVs Forum' started by Steve Withers, Jan 10, 2018.


    1. Steve Withers

      Steve Withers
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    2. MahaRaja

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      Thanks for the video Steve,

      Given that AF8 has 2018 OLED panels which you mentioned has slight refinement than last year's panel, and has the same processing as the flagship A1, would you rather have AF8 than A1, presumably it would be cheaper as well, as it sits below A1?

      With the LCD front, are there no replacement for last year's XE93 range and XE94?

      It seems the only FALD sets they have for 2018 is the 2 year old ZD9 and this new XF90 which is a replacement of XE90 with added X1 extrame and motion feature.

      Thanks.
       
      Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
    3. Goldorak

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      Superb video Steve!!! Really nice and well done. I count on you to help us understand improvement on :
      -abl
      - brightness peak (are they both uhd premium material?)
      - Same fald zones as last year ?
      - tone mapping
      - chip for OS
      They seem to have added 4 hdmi 2.0b from another source I found

      I hope that they improved last year model beyond just cosmetic and adding an x1 extreme processor in xe90!!!!

      That X motion treatment looks promising but will wait for you to tell us :)
       
    4. Goldorak

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      Panel 2018 slight refinement ? I missed that part. Was it said in the video ?
      Is that the reason the brightness peak seems to be slightly higher than last year panels?
       
    5. Norman

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      I guess they felt that adding the X1 extreme to the XF90 was enough to remove the need for an XE93 replacement, although they haven’t announced if the XF90 can match the XE93 peak brightness, as last years XE90 was some way off it.
      With regards to the XE94, perhaps the 75” ZD9 has taking its place?
       
    6. Goldorak

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      Thé xf90 is what the xe93 should have been if they boosted the zones and brightness of the former !!
      If not, then it is ONLY a good xe90 improvement which is not bad at all...
      I just hope they found a middle ground (more zones and 1200 nits for example)

      Hope they improved the parameters mentioned to Steve in my previous post!!!
       
    7. MahaRaja

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      Steve mentioned this on Panasonic video page, to a question raised by a member of the forum.
       
    8. unknownuser0001

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      He said that the A1 still the flagship OLED for 2018 meaning that the AF8 will have a lower starting price than the A1 at launch. The problem with this that the A1's price is much lower than the original price so at best they will have the same price at launch or the A1 will still have lower price which will make confusion.

      You can buy the 55A1 in my country for roughly 2000GBP and I doubt that the AF8 will have lower price tag at launch
       
    9. Goldorak

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      That’s what he said :)
      A new model more expensive than next in line? Good luck with that !!!
      When LG can sell a c7 for £1300, one has to stop and wonder if Sony can justify charging that much more (still 2500 in uk I believe) ??
       
    10. BRAKKUS1

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      What a boring year for TV's, the ZD9 is still the flagship which is staggering tbh, there are loads of improvements they could make :/
       
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    11. pavloPL

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      One correction: there is a content for 10,000 nits and there are games! In many games you have a slider for HDR brightness calibration like: Gears of War 4, Gran Turismo Sport, CoD WW2 etc.. On mine ZD9 I need to put slider on 1/5 so there is a plenty of room.
       
    12. sebbo900

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      I think for me I'm just hoping the that XF90 doesn't come with a huge price increase over the XE90 especially with he current pricing of LF OLEDs
       
    13. MahaRaja

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      I doubt that A1 will sell lower than the new AF8. How can you sell your top of the range model cheaper than the next step down model? It will be interesting to see how they plan out.

      I don't see the new FALD LCD model XF90 having the same peak brightness as last year's XE93. Last year XE90 was best value FALD LCD set with an excellent performance. Don't like the stand of XF90, looks cheap and not classy like the top end Sony LCD models of last year's set.
       
      Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
    14. BRAKKUS1

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      This year is reaking of 'stopgap' with next year HDMI 2.1 and improved specs, which is what was needed this year really, but from a price perspective, it's good for people yet to buy into 4K I guess.
       
    15. Kotatsu Neko

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      10000 nits? Blimey, that will give people a tan in seconds. 700 OLED nits are already painfully bright, so this is so far into willy waving territory for me it defies all logic.

      Maybe Sony will be supplying a cool paid of Sony branded welding goggles with every set.
       
    16. yandybox

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      How do you know without seeing it though as I have read nit level is not linear, so 7000 nits is not 10 times 700 nits. And not all content will be at a max 10000 nits, it will be purely for specular highlights.
       
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    17. Norman

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      Someone else couldn’t contain his excitement in how good it looked, making the ZD9 look mediocre.
       
    18. yandybox

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      The plan all along was to reach 10,000 nits. I don't think blinding potential customers is really a target for tv manufacturers, right? :confused:

      I can't wait to see what a tv with 10,000 nits and 100% rec.2020 looks like. Just before I have to sell it to fund a 16k rec.2100 tv. :cool:
       
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    19. Norman

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      I don’t think that will be enough unless they intend to keep its pricing as before (in the top end midrange), but that will leave a massive gap to what is now looking to be a very-overpriced ZD9.
      Maybe the A8F OLED will fit in there?
       
    20. Straydog52

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      Was the 10,000 nit tv the embargoed Friday tv?
       
    21. Goldorak

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      Good question !!!
       
    22. Goldorak

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      Sony lost me this year
      I expected the xf90 obviously but hoping they improved it more than x1 extreme
      I expected an entry oled but not with pamel sound. That would have been the xe93 replacement
      They made the latest Sony a clone of the a1? Weird move but why complain if cheaper ?!!!!
      I will not surprise if they release a tv in sept as they did before
       
    23. Norman

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      Looking towards next year when we’re likely to see these super-bright, 10K FALD 100% rec.2020 capable LED TV’s go on sale, I wonder where that will leave OLED?
      CES 2019 is going to be interesting.
       
    24. BAMozzy

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      I really thought it would be years until we got 10000nits. The very minor improvements we have seen in commercial TV Peak Brightness levels and 'difficulty' to even reach 1000nits, I thought that 4000nits would be a few years away - if ever.

      10000nits would mean NO tone mapping - EVER. Content would be displayed exactly as the 'Professional' colourist intended it to be viewed. Whether mastered to 1000, 4000 or 10000nits! The ultimate in HDR!! It makes the ZD9 look like a SDR or at best a 'budget' HDR TV in comparison and that is definitely no slouch - probably the 'best' HDR TV currently available!
       
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    25. Geoff_D

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      Some disc-based content has already been mastered on or near 10000 nits according to the MaxCLL metadata captured from the UHD 4K discs, and mostly Sony discs funnily enough:

      Bridge on The River Kwai, Close Encounters, Fifth Elephant, Inferno: ALL mastered to 10000 nits peak.
      Starship Troopers Traitor of Mars: 9978 nits
      Mad Max Fury Road: 9919 nits
      Crouching Tiger: 8985 nits
      Magnificent Seven: 6968 nits
      Life: 6414 nits

      [edit] and you can currently find a 0-10,000-nit ramp on the test patterns on Sony UHD discs:

      [​IMG]
       
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      Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
    26. mark800

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      Have you not bought a new TV yet? :D

      The new Sony OLED makes a lot of sense. It's essentially an A1 for those who don't want the angled screen but made a bit more cheaply (to increase profitability). I suspect the panel sound is going down well in stores. I'm not convinced that Sony see OLED as 'entry level', so it's currently testing two different OLED stand options at premium pricing.

      I've been surprised that the pace of TV development is slowing. It's very interesting that there's been no breakthrough in OLED, for example, noticeably increased brightness for 2018. The good news, though, is that people have been able to buy with confidence. I bet ZD9 owners who bought on first release would never have guessed that the ZD9 would still be Sony's flagship LCD TV for 2018.

      In some ways, the industry needs a period of stability with keen prices so people actually buy and enjoy their TVs over a prolonged period rather than turning TVs into the equivalent of mobile phones (with very little performance difference between generations). Given the prices, I'd rather have a TV with a longer lifecycle with support and upgrades provided for longer. So, Sony's strategy is making me more positive towards the brand rather than less. Just need iPlayer 4k and Dolby Vision and I'll be very happy... Not long now, hopefully.
       
    27. BAMozzy

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      @mark800 I agree that we could do with 'some' stability and in some ways, we have seen that. Performance hasn't really pushed on over the last couple of years despite the fact that the scope (full REC2020, 10000nits) has a lot of room to improve. HDR10 at least is stable - in that we have a 'minimum standard' in place. Dolby Vision is stable too but HDR10+ and HLG are still very much in their infancy. Spec wise though, these formats are stable. HDMI2.1 will also upset the stability as that is still going to be wanted by many 'techies' if not the 'general' masses.

      Its not helped by the development of new Tech and standards that 4k+ has brought with it. Had 4k just been at the same 'standards' as all other content, you can bet we would have seen stability but with HDR and its various formats as well as upcoming HDMI2.1 and its features (although some can come to 2.0) as well as the fact that TV's are not delivering the 'full' HDR quality requiring tone mapping, there is going to be instability and progress.

      HD TV's also saw some degree of progress and 'desirable' features added during its run too - things like the Smart services, 3D, freeview and freesat etc. HD TV's were relatively stable because they could meet the standards - the necessary brightness levels and colour gamuts of the content. You could easily make do with an 'early' HD TV, go without Smart or 3D as a lot of devices had the apps you wanted. Therefore you could keep a TV for 5+ years and it would still play the content at the 'standard' it was meant to be viewed at.

      I bet if Sony, or any other manufacturer released a 10000nit HDR with DV, HDR10+ and HLG support, HDMI2.1 and its 'features', you could very easily see out the rest of the 4k era easily. If you bought an 8K screen with all of these, you would be set for the next 10+ yrs - longer than most TV's seem to last (depending on how many hours a day it gets used of course). The Smart functionality may seem limited in 5yrs time compared to the totally connected and synced up world that we seem to be heading towards - not that I want that but its here that things may well be advanced on a year to year basis. Who knows, they could also bring back 3D too.

      Of course that's assuming we don't see new tech like MicroLED or self-emitting QD TV's replacing LCD's (I doubt OLED will ever get that high in terms of Peak Brightness so will always rely on tone mapping). However, as TVs are not yet up to the task of delivering HDR as intended without tone mapping, chances are, there is always going to be something 'better' a year or two down the line. Whether you want the improved HDR performance for example, or features like Game VRR or eARC, want to be connected to every device in your house inc Alexa, Google assistance etc, or not - that is more likely to determine how 'stable' this era is for you. You could make do with the HDR performance and formats your TV supports, still enjoy gaming without VRR and still get Dolby Atmos by connecting direct to your Amp and therefore enjoy some 'stability'.

      As someone with two TV's, its not too bad as I could replace my Main TV with a more 'up to date' TV and move the older one to replace the bedroom TV. If you do that say every 3yrs, the TV is essentially replaced every 6yrs as it spends 3yrs as a 'main' TV, then 3yrs as a 2nd/bedroom TV. of course, that only matters if there is something 'worthwhile' to upgrade to - some significant improvement. Obviously my 2nd TV is not up to the standard of my main TV so by upgrading my Main TV, will also see an upgrade to my 2nd TV as that is replaced by the TV that was my main TV before. My TV's usually come with a 5-6yr Warranty and doing things this way also sees me get 5-6yrs out of a TV too.
       
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    28. Steve Withers

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      Unless you really want the easel stand of the A1, I'd get the AF8 because I expect it to be slightly cheaper. There will be no replacement for the XE94 and XE93 this year.
       
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    29. Steve Withers

      Steve Withers
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      Thanks Geoff I didn't realise that.
       
    30. Geoff_D

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      No worries. Most people think that 10000 nit content needs some sort of expansion to the spec or that HDR10 can't do it at all but it's at the core of the Perceptual Quantiser EOTF, it's designed to work all the way up to 10K nits with BT.2020 colour and that applies to HDR10 as well as Dolby Vision. That current content doesn't do either (mostly) is purely a mastering decision, not a strict technical limitation, and this is partly what metadata is there for: to tell the display that it's not using all of this 10K-nit container, only some of it.
       
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