CES 2018 & future

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by Goldorak, Nov 23, 2017.

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  1. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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    Thread created to consolidate all sources of information and discussions related to CES 2018 and what coming next in term of TVs and technologies

    A safe heaven from current end of year Sale frenzy :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  2. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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  3. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  4. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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  5. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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  6. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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  7. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  8. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    Of course the best resource for all things TVs at CES will be the AVForums coverage. Three of us going again this year and we will have access to those who matter for interviews, videos, facebook live streams and more...
     
  9. golden phoenix

    golden phoenix
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    wouldn't expect anything less @Phil Hinton
     
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  10. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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    Can’t expect anything less Sir, this thread is to discuss and share ahead of that event and beyond potentially...
    Always exciting times !!!
     
  11. Crafty

    Crafty
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    Given the price drops that LG OLEDs have seen this year whats the speculation on pricing ? Will they launch at a lower price than the 2017 models to try and increase sales or will they stay high for maximum profit per unit sold ?
     
  12. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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    Very good question sir
    Based on information gathered here and via forum friends, LG strategy seems to take maximum market share and not necessarily maximise profits. They hit their famous optimum production yield (80%) tipping point. Add to that the gathering challenges of micro led and even refined led plus other technologies by 2020/22

    Cut story short: prediction for 55
    1. Entry level hd oled with hdr: £1000 market and will start £1500
    2. C8-b8: launch £2500-2800 but will stabilise q2 at circa £1700 before hitting £1300 q4
    3. E7 will be £500 more expensive in average and gap will narrow to £0-£250

    65 size tends to be very expensive at launch and will half by the same time next year...but much slower price drop than 55
    The big difference next year is more wallpaper at 55-65-75 creating in fact a new product category above the traditional look. Think iPhones x versus 8 scenario and therefore premium
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  13. Crafty

    Crafty
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    Thanks, seems to be a sensible estimate. I shall keep watching for now until my old LCD packs up!
     
  14. davidcrofter

    davidcrofter
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    Prices will more than likely just be similar to this year - they may even rise.

    If you want to be an early adopter then you will pay through the teeth for it. Nothing will change there plus LG don't have any major new capacity coming online for next years models so supply & demand will mean that prices remain relatively high.

    Of course 8K is the elephant in the room and it could be a chance for pricing to be quite a bit higher if that materialises into actual retail products.

    What we are seeing now is just the various manufacturers shifting lines that have been slow moving ... now things have settled the price drops are not that great.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  15. fulllupo

    fulllupo
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    I would like to see:

    - Brightness comfortably reaching the 1000nit mark in a calibrated mode
    - HDMI 2.1 for further proofing
    - higher frame rate support for smooth motion on the football

    Then I think I'll be ready to jump in. Oh and why not reduce the price on the 65" for me please!
     
  16. kiran_mk2

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    I think the 2017 prices were a bit cheaper than the 2016, but with the fall in the value of GBP there appeared no change on our end. I would estimate that while the 55b/c7 started at £3k and quickly fell to £2.5k by the start of the Summer, the 55b/c7 will start at £2.5k and fall below £2k before the Summer and possibly be down to sub £1.2k levels by next Black Friday.

    I do wonder how many models LG will put out in 2018. I can maybe see the B and C models sticking around differing only in cosmetics (black/silver or black/white), the E model as the midrange and the W as the high end with the G model removed. Perhaps there will be two wallpaper models - the E and G that differ by the soundbar/control unit. Can't wait to see what's unveiled.
     
  17. Crafty

    Crafty
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    "LG Display to boost OLED panel output 60% next year"
    Exclusive: LG Display to boost OLED panel output 60% next year- Nikkei Asian Review

    According to that they want to significantly increase panel output next year.
     
  18. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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    Can’t agree more with you and @fulllupo
    Just add to both your lists for LG:
    - curve is back
    - Crystal sound like sony a1 is back
    - more brightness indeed but I will sacrify absolute peak for a higher apl overall
    - less panel lottery (but I am clearly dreaming there)
     
  19. davidcrofter

    davidcrofter
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    That is an interesting read - basically versions of that story appeared in January this year so good to see it being confirmed.
    LG to double large OLED production

    Should mean prices remain competitive - which to be fair they are now.

    Of course LG would love to make some inroads into the mid-range models at around £1,000 so it will be interesting to see if they offer some sort of stripped down version to try and capture a part of that market with the increased capacity or if they will be happy simply supplying the panels for the Chinese to grab a foothold.

    Personally I don't think we will see an 8K OLED actually released next year and if they do it will be an expensive 77" version that is no more than a tech demo in reality. 8K LCD will be pretty common in the larger high-end models I suspect.
     
  20. Crafty

    Crafty
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    I agree that if they can get near to a £1k price point they will sell loads, but what could they strip off ? I suppose they could bin all the "smart" stuff - lots of people have games consoles or PCs attached that can do all that stuff, but would that justify the lower price? Would using this years panels rather than 2018 ones make it cheaper ?

    I read somewhere that they probably won't make smaller panels until 2019/2020. I don't see the point of a retail 8k yet either... prototype/demo in a year or two maybe..
     
  21. Goldorak

    Goldorak
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    They are already selling a hd oled called the A7 with last year OS. Very easy to release an A8 hd oled with hdr next year at £999 price point (and even lower when you see how low b7 reached)

    In fact, this was a rumor for LG and Sony a while ago. Will not be surprising at all...
     
  22. kiran_mk2

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    Do they really need a set at £1000? They are already selling almost every panel they make so I don't think there is a need for a lower price point. The A7 seems to have been aimed at emerging markets - probably to increase LG's OLED market share in markets that couldn't really afford the 4K models. It's absence in the UK and USA markets is notable.

    Curved screens are as dead as 3D for the time being as the market has spoken. Crystal sound is likely in the non-soundbar models (I'd forgotten about that) and I don't think 8K will appear next year as a consumer set. I'd update my guess to predict two 'traditional' sets with Crystal Sound that differ only in terms of cosmetics (B8/C8?) and two 'wallpaper' sets with differing quality soundbars (or perhaps the lower end wallpaper TV with Crystal Sound and a simple connection box and the higher end one with an Atmos soundbar).
     
  23. davidcrofter

    davidcrofter
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    Well according to reports they will have 1 million more panels to shift next year and this year they only sold approx 1.7 million panels so that is quite a jump. The good thing is that the improvements this year were largely down to LG simply refining things and having a better understanding of HDR so you might argue they have done well to sell the amount they have.

    Whether they have anything major to add next year I am not sure they have - HDMI 2.1 for certain and HFR but I think the panels we have now are already geared for that so technically speaking it might be pretty much the same panels.

    Crystal sounds or it's variants was widely demoed at IFA in September so Sony will have one less of an advantage moving forward.
     
  24. Suave

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    Hi All,

    I really commend LG for allowing other brands access to their OLED Panels - despite anything the the other Korean Manufacturer says, OLED is the future & by allowing many other brands access to the tech simply helps solidify OLED as best TV tech for the next few generations and is increasingly available across all markets globally.

    This was a master stroke by LG as it allows other brands to still compete in the TV business but much more importantly, this will really cut into & hurt their arch rival Samsung even more as LCD tech has pretty much reached its peak & there is not really anything Samsung can counter with except more marketing nonsense imho - next year from them will probably be something like "Super QLED or Ultra QLED" etc!

    This talk about Samsung working on Micro LED will make a very long time (if at all) to reach market so they will continue to
    haemorrhage sales to their rivals. They would have to spend billions on the tech to perfect to market & even if it might be ready in a few years, they will still be many years behind OLED & will have to spend a fortune on marketing to convince consumers that theirs is better than everyone elses.

    In time, I really would not be surprised if Samsung do the "unthinkable" & start producing OLED TV's with LG Panels - They may do a very shifty deal & not allow such to be
    publicly known & kept under a some sort of secret contractual clauses etc but I have a feeling this is what will happen.

    I think if LG can provide OLED Panels with even brighter Panels to address the HDR/DV aspect to compete with LCD's on this front & also on producing more robust panels with regards to Screen Burn/Image Retention & Banding, then this will pretty much address current concerns/criticisms (whether deserved or not) & then possibly negate pretty much every advantage the LCD has - This is what I would be really excited to learn from CES.

    I'm actually interested to see what the Toshiba OLED's will be like - I understand that even though Vestel will be making them, Toshiba's Japanese team is fully responsible for all the development for everything but the Panel.

    By the way, if I was CEO of LG & Samsung wanted to use OLED Panels, I would charge them through the nose for them & with the condition that any OLED Panels offered would always be a couple of generations older than the current ones offered to everyone else. I would also insist that every Samsung OLED TV & its
    Packaging had to clearly & boldly state "OLED Panel Made & Supplied By LG" - payback for all the decades of trouble they have caused - just kidding folks!

    Suave!
     
  25. Crafty

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    What I find strange is that Samsung rule the roost with regards to OLED screens for mobile devices.. LG.. well.. don't, to put it politely. I can't believe that Samsung chose to do the "QLED" route, so either they can't make big OLEDs or ca't do it in a cost efficient manner ?

    I can see LG shifting another 1m panels if they launch a £1k screen. Not going to do the competition much good though, as they already can't match LG prices.
     
  26. Chamberlain

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    What i want the most is improved uniformity. But obviously there can always be improvements in PQ altough it's hard to believe when you see this OLEDs. Also hoping Sony releases one with 4 HDMI ports with 4k60hz and a better chip for the OS.

    And lastly i want either LG to release a better built 4k player as good as the Panasonics and X800 or that someone else releases a Dolby Vision player for hopefully not more than £450.
     
  27. Goldorak

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    Good point there related to Sony. LG has the best apl this year and Sony (and the others) could do with improved one and better ship for os.

    Let’s hope also sony propose several tone mapping approaches to avoid clipping and loss of details.A calibrated set at 900 nits at 10 percent window will be a good step forward too...

    For uniformity? Still lottery I am afraid.

    I am curious to see the combination of a q9 Samsung with a good fald...lcd is not dead for sure.
     
  28. kiran_mk2

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    When you say "they will have 1 million more panels to shift" you are referring to LG Display. They do not sell tvs, they sell panels. With a lot more panels available, LG Display will be able to sell more panels to all their customers: LG Electronics, Sony, Panasonic, TP Vision, Skyworth etc and maybe pick up some more customers such as Toshiba, Hitachi, Vestel etc. This would enable more comanies to increase their range of OLED TVs instead of being forced to go after purely the high end - e.g. a Sony B/C7 level screen.

    LG bought all the patents relating to their WOLED panel from Kodak (the LG OLED is a white OLED below RGB colour filters) whereas Samsung (and most other companies) were pursuing RGB OLEDs where each OLED sub-pixel is red, green or blue. The LG/Kodak approach is much simpler to engineer (as every OLED subpixel is the same white compared to needing each OLED subpixel to be R, G or B). Samsung simply couldn't keep pace with the yield improvements and price drops LG saw from 2013-2015 and (probably quite rightly) flet that it would hurt their brand (or profit margins) to sell an OLED screen at £8-10k when LG could turn a profit at £2-3k. Samsung would have to become a customer for LG panels (unlikely) or licence the relevent patents (also unlikely) which would still put Samsung at the stage LG were at 4-5 years ago.

    Publically Samsung is backing QLED (true QLED - where the quantum dots are the emissive material rather than just a colour tuning film as in the current models) and microLED which are at best several years away (likely further for QLED). Behind the scenes, they are probably still working on OLEDto see if they can solve the RGB panel fabrication issues.
     
  29. davidcrofter

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    I never said LG have 1 million more OLED TV's to sell so it should be pretty obvious that I was talking about LG Display having 1 million more panel capacity. I have already covered the other manufacturers in a previous mid-price segment of an earlier post.;)
     
  30. Goldorak

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