CES 2017: What to Expect? What do you want to see?

Very interested to hear what is happening on the OLED front. Have been leaning quite heavily towards this technology for a while now (still with plasma) but wasn't 100% convinced 2016 was the year to jump in. Have been looking very closely at the Loewe sets as a potential alternative but would like to see what LG/Sony have on offer first.

As an aside, do you think we will hear anything more about dynamic metadata for the open-source version of HDR? That was one of the things in the back of my mind against purchasing a TV this year, as it would be a shame if a much-improved experience with HDR-10 is just around the corner, as it doesn't appear DV is going to feature on UHD Blu-ray anytime soon...
 
From your description, it looks like more incremental updates and unnecessary hardware to con people out their dosh, however I suspect 4K HDR will finally come of age, (Rather than the scrappy offerings currently available) with affordable 4K HDR projectors becoming available. (At least in comparison to the overpriced money grabbing Sony models)

Glad I am not going, as to make things even worse, the beer in the bar is usually rubbish at these types of shows.

Look forward to your review/report on the show, so have a good time.

Bill
 
I'm going, anyone fancy meeting up?
 
Very interested to hear what is happening on the OLED front. Have been leaning quite heavily towards this technology for a while now (still with plasma) but wasn't 100% convinced 2016 was the year to jump in. Have been looking very closely at the Loewe sets as a potential alternative but would like to see what LG/Sony have on offer first.

As an aside, do you think we will hear anything more about dynamic metadata for the open-source version of HDR? That was one of the things in the back of my mind against purchasing a TV this year, as it would be a shame if a much-improved experience with HDR-10 is just around the corner, as it doesn't appear DV is going to feature on UHD Blu-ray anytime soon...

dv discs mid 2017.
 
Wonder if Disney will announce support of UHD blu ray?
 
I don't expect any groundbreaking from the next TVs, it will be HDR round 2 aka fine tuning HDR, specially the "plug and play" part. It requires too much tuning currently which is not good for the average consumer.

I'm expecting from OLEDs to hit the 1000 nit brightness, little bit better uniformity and basically that's it. Nothing crazy, the 2016 LG OLEDs are already near perfect (as a tech product can be).

OPPO said that the Dolby Vision firmware update is coming in Q1 which confirms that the first Disney 4k Blu-Ray movies are coming in Q1. The reason why Disney did not release any movies this year is the lack of Dolby Vision. They always supported Dolby so it's obvious that they if put in work into the 4k mastering then they choose to do this with Dolby Vision HDR.

PC hardware will be also interesting for me and many other things, I love CES :)
 
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I would be curious to see if they have managed to make significant progress on improving the OLED panel yield to further reduce the price of the televisions.
 
I'll be interested to see how many TV'S are announced with 3d support, as long as LG still have a 3d oled I'll be happy.
 
Universal HDR TV!

I’d be very surprised if the 2017 LG OLED TV won’t support all currently functional HDR formats (i.e. HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR and VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR) due to the following facts:

. Pledge to support all major formats:
"In regards to HDR, LG has made an important pledge to support all major formats, including Dolby Vision, which other TV manufacturers have shied away from backing." [CES 2016]


. HLG demos at IFA 2016:
"LG used a HLG broadcast signal to demonstrate HDR video on one of its existing E6 OLED TVs (2016 line-up). The company says that its OLED TVs are “compatible with the full range of HDR technologies”. However, the E6 OLED model at IFA was a customized model and LG would not promise a firmware update to add HLG support to the 2016 TV line-up."


. YouTube HDR demos at CES 2016:
"Visitors to the LG booth will also be able to experience YouTube’s HDR content for the first time, demonstrated using Google’s VP9-Profile 2 codec. YouTube will start to provide HDR playback through their TV app later this year."



Concerning the so-called Dynamic HDR10, the different open standard SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata methods from Dolby, Philips, Technicolor and Samsung shall be added to the upcoming HEVC v5, which will be finalized in October 2017.

Then, some standardization organizations like CTA or DECE should specify one or several Dynamic HDR formats based on SMPTE ST 2094.
Then, these Dynamic HDR formats should be endorsed by Hollywood.

A Dynamic HDR format and Dolby Vision are somewhat equivalent leaving out the standardization differences.

Blu-ray and HD DVD are different physical formats.
Dolby Vision, HDR10 or "Dynamic HDR10" are just software for a TV.


As the industry is unable to reach a consensus on HDR, a (2017) HDR TV shall support all HDR formats in the same way AVRs have universal support for audio formats.

No more early-adopter industry-driven HDR TV incompatible with other HDR content, but consumer-driven universal HDR-compliant TV able to play any HDR content!
 
I don't expect any groundbreaking from the next TVs, it will be HDR round 2 aka fine tuning HDR, specially the "plug and play" part. It requires too much tuning currently which is not good for the average consumer.

I'm expecting from OLEDs to hit the 1000 nit brightness, little bit better uniformity and basically that's it. Nothing crazy, the 2016 LG OLEDs are already near perfect (as a tech product can be).

OPPO said that the Dolby Vision firmware update is coming in Q1 which confirms that the first Disney 4k Blu-Ray movies are coming in Q1. The reason why Disney did not release any movies this year is the lack of Dolby Vision. They always supported Dolby so it's obvious that they if put in work into the 4k mastering then they choose to do this with Dolby Vision HDR.

PC hardware will be also interesting for me and many other things, I love CES :)

Disney "They always support Dolby",most of their blu rays are DTS-master :confused::)
 
Dolby Vision, HDR10 or "Dynamic HDR10" are just software for a TV

Doesn't DV require specific hardware in both the player and the TV? I appreciate it might be possible for Dynamic HDR10 to be added via a firmware/software update but I don't believe it is possible to add DV to any device if it doesn't have the necessary hardware pre-installed.

Have I misunderstood?
 
I just don't get it..... everyone is losing their minds over OLED, but it is too fragile to crank up to 1000 nits to accurately map HDR10, hence why LG went for DV, so that HDR could be accurately mapped within the limitations of their screen technology. Dolby Vision have already missed the boat in my opinion, it may the betamax to HDR10's VHS but there are still no players that are capable of using it, and which manufacturers are going to hand over control of their PQ engine to a 3rd party for a niche technology, and pay a premium for the privilege.
On the other hand QD LED still has one fundamental issue.... LED backlight bleed and limited off axis viewing angles... unless these issues can be addressed I don't care how bright they go, I do not want to see backlight blooms when I am watching dark scenes in a dark room at night....
I want to see a TV that has self illuminating pixels, that won't burn out in 18 months, and can also go bright enough and colourful enough to reap the benefits of all the WCG and HDR will bring.
At the moment there are too many compromises to fork out crazy money on either technology.... but please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
 
Doesn't DV require specific hardware in both the player and the TV? I appreciate it might be possible for Dynamic HDR10 to be added via a firmware/software update but I don't believe it is possible to add DV to any device if it doesn't have the necessary hardware pre-installed.

Have I misunderstood?

If a necessary specific Dolby Vision hardware exists, then what is its specific function?


According to Matt McRae, CTO of Vizio (a Dolby Vision TV maker), there is no specific Dolby Vision hardware chip, Dolby Vision is software.


"There is no DV chip... Dolby Vision is a format + processing/mapping SW."

"Dolby Vision is processing/mapping software": the Dolby Vision functions of a TV are 10-bit HEVC base layer decoder, 10-bit HEVC enhancement layer decoder, composer & metadata embedder and display management.

dldv.jpg


Dolby Vision display management is just a proprietary SMPTE ST 2094 adaptation for consistent visual or "ST 2094 dynamic metadata for" reference mastering display-to-consumer TV color volume transform/mapping software.
http://danielbafr.free.fr/photos/hdrblocks.jpg
And according to the US20140050271 patent issued by Dolby, [base layer decoder, enhancement layer decoder, composer & metadata embedder] or "embodiments of the present invention may be implemented with a computer system".


Like HDR10, Dolby Vision can be implemented on a SoC (i.e. computer System-on-Chip): the SoC is a hardware & software computer system, and the SoC hardware is not specifically designed for Dolby Vision as well as for HDR10 or other HDR format.
A Dolby Vision capable SoC shall have enough processing power due to the "massive level of Dolby Vision processing". In particular, the HEVC decoding should be hardware accelerated.


Dolby Vision compatible demo game based on Amazon Lumberyard game engine running on standard Windows PC without any specific Dolby Vision chip > standard NVidia Titan X graphics card without any specific Dolby Vision chip >> HDMI >> Dolby Vision compatible Vizio R TV

CdxYpsHWIAEtU-q.jpg
 
What I would like to see, if they have it, is what's happening with Projector Screens.

We get lots of reviews of projectors but in general the screens don't get much of a mention.
 
According to Matt McRae, CTO of Vizio (a Dolby Vision TV maker), there is no specific Dolby Vision hardware chip, Dolby Vision is software.

That's really interesting, as I'd previously thought it was hardware dependent. Would seem to suggest that if (and I know it's a big if at this point) DV does start to feature on some UHD Blu-rays, it could become more mainstream quite quickly.

Thanks for your detailed reply, much appreciated!
 
I just don't get it..... everyone is losing their minds over OLED, but it is too fragile to crank up to 1000 nits to accurately map HDR10, hence why LG went for DV, so that HDR could be accurately mapped within the limitations of their screen technology. Dolby Vision have already missed the boat in my opinion, it may the betamax to HDR10's VHS but there are still no players that are capable of using it, and which manufacturers are going to hand over control of their PQ engine to a 3rd party for a niche technology, and pay a premium for the privilege.

HDR10 is an incomplete / half-baked HDR format: one of three fundamental HDR building blocks, ST 2094 dynamic metadata adaptation for consistent visual (i.e. mastering display - consumer TV color volume adaptation / mapping), is missing.
You can register for a SMPTE Webcast on 12 January 17 that will discuss the SMPTE ST 2094 Dynamic Metadata standard.


HDR10 =~ ST 2086 + ST 2084

hdrblocks.jpg



I don't think there is a hand over control of the TV PQ engine to a 3rd party: Dolby Vision display management is just a proprietary SMPTE ST 2094 adaptation for consistent visual software.

Dolby Vision and a future Dynamic HDR (aka Dynamic HDR10) based on open standard SMPTE ST 2094 are somewhat equivalent leaving out the standardization differences.

The SMPTE ST 2094 Dynamic Metadata for [reference mastering display to consumer TV] Color Volume Transform includes 4 different dynamic metadata adaptation methods "from Dolby, Philips, Technicolor, Samsung that are considered sufficiently different to make it impossible to rationalize into a single method.": ST 2094-10 from Dolby, ST 2094-20 from Philips, ST 2094-30 from Technicolor, ST 2094-40 from Samsung.
The different ST 2094 dynamic metadata methods shall be added to the upcoming HEVC v5, which will be finalized in October 2017.
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/files/Standards Quarterly Outcome Report-September 2015-FINAL.pdf
IEEE Xplore Search Results


Anyway HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR and VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR are here to stay.
The obvious TV business logic is to manufacture and sell interoperable televisions to consumers (i.e. universal HDR TV).
It is possible with universal HDR TV SoC like the Sigma Designs STV7804 SoC that supports HDR10, Dolby Vision and HLG. As the STV7804 SoC has 10-bit VP9 decoding capabilities, it can also support VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR.


As the industry is unable to reach a consensus on HDR, a (2017) HDR TV shall support all HDR formats in the same way AVRs have universal support for audio formats.

audio.jpg
 
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What I would like to see, if they have it, is what's happening with Projector Screens.

We get lots of reviews of projectors but in general the screens don't get much of a mention.

You cannot test screens like a TV or projector as there is no one size fits all, you must get a screen that matches your projector technology and the room conditions for best results.

An article on screen selection in simple English would be good though.

Hope this helps

Bill
 
... but the tech is changing, albeit gradually, and it would be interesting to know what's new at CES.
 
That's really interesting, as I'd previously thought it was hardware dependent. Would seem to suggest that if (and I know it's a big if at this point) DV does start to feature on some UHD Blu-rays, it could become more mainstream quite quickly.

Thanks for your detailed reply, much appreciated!

Dont forget everybody has an interest in one system or another,figure are easy to show on a chart,but its always been how those figure act out in real life, i:e when your at home sitting in front of your setup.
Plus to get the very best from HDR & WCG,whether it be HR-10 or DV filmmakers i:e cinematographer, lighting etc will have to learn new techniques.

Gear may to be able to push new technology,but at the end of the day its always been down to the studios,filmmakers how that technology is used in the making of movies.

:)
 
Is a 40/42 inch OLED TV a total pipe dream? I'm going to buying a new screen in 17 but have major size constraints (wife). :D
MB
I had something similar when discussing buying an OLED TV, so I promised SWMBO that I would buy the smallest screen possible. It was of course, a 55" and now I have the problem that she thinks it is fantastic and is glued to it (not literally!). :(
 
HDR10 is an incomplete / half-baked HDR format: one of three fundamental HDR building blocks, ST 2094 dynamic metadata adaptation for consistent visual (i.e. mastering display - consumer TV color volume adaptation / mapping), is missing.
You can register for a SMPTE Webcast on 12 January 17 that will discuss the SMPTE ST 2094 Dynamic Metadata standard.

Yes, but HDR10 is easy for manufacturers to implement, and is basically 'good enough' for the vast majority. How often do compromise formats win out because they just 'do the job'? DV is probably better, but that doesn't mean it will become the standard. Infact, it's probably too late for DV even now. LG are just trying to appeal to everyone with OLED, so want to tick all the boxes. I have a feeling HDR10 will prevail, and HDR10 (HLG) will become the standard for broadcast 4k HDR. Your higher end sets may support DV, but there will be very little encoded in the format, so it will just slowly disappear.

Movie studios always want to appeal to the majority, and that won't include DV.
 

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