Centre Speaker out of phase

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by Rambles, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. Rambles

    Rambles
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    My centre speaker is a Kef iQ60C, in dark apple, very nice!

    My new AVR Marantz SR7011, when running Audyssey says that it is out of phase. A previous AVR, a Sony 3500ES, from a couple of AVR's ago, also said this. I have checked the cabling many times and it is definitely not wired out of phase.

    But I have been running Audyssey a lot lately, due to messing with my system and trying new power amps / integrated amps out. So, out of curiosity, I wired it out of phase, to see what happened. And Audyssey now doesn't issue any phase error warnings. The speaker sounds fine, similar to how it did before, maybe slightly less boomy on male voices, but I might be imagining that.

    Question is, am I okay to leave it wired out of phase, or will it blow something up?!
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  2. gibbsy

    gibbsy
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    Not unusual for Audyssey to incorrectly say a speaker is out of phase. It needs to be wired in phase.
     
  3. Rambles

    Rambles
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    Thanks. What if it sounds better out of phase? Placement issue, or broken / faulty speaker?
     
  4. DodgeTheViper

    DodgeTheViper
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    Can you switch the centre speaker for another speaker and run Audyssey again to see what happens ?
     
  5. Rambles

    Rambles
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    Thanks both for the replies. I've actually grabbed a half price Kef Q200C whilst there is still stock. It will at least match the Kef Q700 fronts, although it's not as pretty.

    The iQ60c is rear ported, I wonder if that is causing issues where it is placed, the Q200C does not seem to have a rear port. I should be able to move the iQ60c on to a different room.
     
  6. DodgeTheViper

    DodgeTheViper
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    Its worth trying that Q200c when you get it. The whole 'Q' range is sealed from what I remember. I can recall checking the whole range at a show when they were launched. I ended up with the Q900's.
     
  7. Electric Mayhem

    Electric Mayhem
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    An out of phase speaker will often sound like it's lacking bass so that can be a bit of a clue. Mic positioning can sometimes throw up errors that are incorrect. In rare cases you can have a speaker that's been incorrectly wired internally.

    My old Kef RDM's would occasionally register a phase error with Audyssey but I put that down to either the Uni-Q driver or room acoustics (maybe both). I could run it, get an error, run it again without touching or moving anything and then get no error.

    As a test I put the mic much nearer the speaker just to see if it would still register any phase errors and it never did. I worked on the basis that if it was truly out of phase having the mic nearer would pick that up straightaway. You could try that?
     
  8. gibbsy

    gibbsy
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    The rear porting could be your problem. My R200C is rear ported and sounds just right using the 'half port' insert supplied by Denon as do the R300s. You'll get to love the Q200.:)
     
  9. Rock Danger

    Rock Danger
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    The problem is Audyssesy being completely useless.

    You can test the phase of a speaker with a battery and how it moves determines its phase - pops out in phase, sucks in - out of phase. Chances of it being wired wrong inside is very very slim.

    Keep it wired in phase.
     
  10. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Where is the Center Speaker placed? In a cabinet? On a shelf? On the Floor? On a Stand?

    Try shifting the Center Forward even if it hangs over the front edge of the shelf/cabinet. And see if you get the same results.

    A photo of the system would go a long way toward helping us understand what is happening. But as other have said, it is not uncommon for Audyssey to see one or more speaker out of phase.

    In some cases it is a matter of a near by reflection causing the confusion.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  11. Rambles

    Rambles
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    Here is a photo. The replacement speaker is coming tmrw, so will be interesting to see what Audyssey makes of it, and how the sound compares.

    IMG_4599.jpg
     
  12. Rock Danger

    Rock Danger
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    Yeah, that's a decent enough centre speaker it's just Audy sucking ass. Buy an Anthem if you want better RC or if it sounds fine and says it's out of phase, ignore it. I think my Denon would say that about my left front Kef speaker now and again, and it was because of a room null at roughly the x-over point around 115hz.

    if you cannot move your speakers in any meaningful way then you'll have to run something like REW and use acoustic dampening to stop standing waves an sh*t like that.
     
  13. gibbsy

    gibbsy
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    Centre being set quite low could be causing an early reflection possibly off the glass shelf and Audyssey thinks it's out of phase. When you get the Q200 which is physically bigger than the current one try and get the front to sit proud of the glass edge.
     
  14. Rambles

    Rambles
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    Okay, thanks. It does just sit slightly forward of the edge of the shelf if sitting flat, but I have put rubber doorstops under it so that it is tilted slightly upwards toward the MLP - aimed at the ears. Good or not?
     
  15. gibbsy

    gibbsy
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  16. Rambles

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  17. unreel

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    I have a Marantz 7010 and the Kef IQ60 centre, mine also shows out of phase. I've just left it as connections are definitely correct. Also does the Marantz not get rather toasty warm with the other kit sitting on top ?
     
  18. Rambles

    Rambles
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    How odd! I might have bought a new centre speaker for no reason then. Ah, well at least it will match the others and the other room can get a nice upgrade, time to retire the old Tannoy centre that is in there that I must have bought about 15 years ago!

    Yes, the Marantz does get very warm. The other kit is not on top, it is stacked up behind it on a little X amp stand, close up pic...

    IMG_4601.JPG
     
  19. Dolus

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    Audyssey detecting speaker as out of phase.

    Chris Kyriakakis (co-inventor of the Audyssey MultEQ digital room correction system.)

    MultEQ detects absolute phase for each loudspeaker. Some loudspeakers are designed with intentional phase reversals in the drivers in order to address crossover problems. MultEQ will detect that and report an error. The best course of action is to simply check the wiring and press "Skip" if it is correct. MultEQ simply reports a possible wiring reversal, it does not automatically switch the phase.

    It's actually a Phase Warning and not an error. It can be triggered by how the speaker interacts with the room and also due to intentional design decisions made by the speaker maker, particularly when there are multiple drivers involved. It is there to have you check the wiring on the back of the speaker and the back of the amp. If it is correct on both ends, then simply hit Skip and proceed. It has no effect on the resulting room correction filters.

    "Phase" error
     
  20. Rambles

    Rambles
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    The Kef Q200C is now in place, and no phase error. Not sure yet if it sounds better than the iQ60C, it doesn't sound worse, and looks like a lot of speaker for what I paid.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  21. Sgoaty

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    I just set up my new Q600c (absolute beast) with my Marantz SR7011. I got an out of phase error too. I googled the issue and got directed here. I suppose it must just be something about these speakers but reading this put my mind at rest.
     
  22. Derek S-H

    Derek S-H
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    Probably an irrelevant reply, but I also just use rubber door stops to tilt my Centre up towards me. Works fine and cost, what, £2?

    Why pay more money for something that makes little to no difference? Yes, I understand the principles of isolation/decoupling, but I also know that the AV market is full of spurious claims about accessories that make no discernible difference whatsoever in a blind test.
     
  23. stainless-steel

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    Don't forget Audyssey is measuring your room/speaker interaction, and it's not unheard of for speaker manufactures to wire some drivers out of phase deliberately, I'm petty sure I've read some KEF models have the mid range out of phase.
    Here's some feedback from one of Audysseys creators on the subject:
    "Phase" error
     

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